It pains me to say Saddam was right. Did I agree with his methods? No. But dammit, they worked. The only way to deal with those people ( and yes I said those people, don't like it, go talk about Wake or Titans) was to murder anyone who got out of line. There is no need to do that stuff in the US, UK, Europe, Australia, or many other countries because we do not act like animals. We all try to make our countries better, except the people in Iraq right now. And I know what you are going to say, "it is only a few bad apples," well, I disagree. People can't speak out because they will be killed. Doctors flee the country because they get kidnapped and so do their family members. So, what do you do? Who knows. But Saddam had it right because he knew how to control the animals. Do I like the stuff he did, hell no. But I just do not know another way to control these people. So, until someone can figure out how, it is hard to say he was wrong.
So.. ..control through fear is the way to go, eh, Stalin? You refer to Iraqis as "animals", nice!
Last edited by DonFck (2006-11-28 05:25:21)
I need around tree fiddy.
Does this make you unpatriotic?
People said this 2 years ago and they were unpatriotic american hating liberals who need to be shipped to Gitmo.
You sure you feel this way?
People said this 2 years ago and they were unpatriotic american hating liberals who need to be shipped to Gitmo.
You sure you feel this way?
I didn't before, but I do now. I have seen enough people die for people who do not even give a shit ( Vietnam?) It is truly annoying. I say we leave and let them figure it out. Enough is enough. We have been there a long time, so this "we can't just leave them" argument is getting old.Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
Does this make you unpatriotic?
People said this 2 years ago and they were unpatriotic american hating liberals who need to be shipped to Gitmo.
You sure you feel this way?
Well I have to fucking laugh I must say. One-time advocates for the removal of Saddam now doing a complete 'flip flop' on the issue and actually endorsing Saddam Hussein. Welcome to zero credibility ever again.
The lesson that has been learned here is: don't go fucking with far-off nations who pose no real threat to you unless you're prepared to deal with the fact that they don't fucking want you messing around with their nation or overstaying what little welcome you had.
The lesson that has been learned here is: don't go fucking with far-off nations who pose no real threat to you unless you're prepared to deal with the fact that they don't fucking want you messing around with their nation or overstaying what little welcome you had.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-28 05:32:57)
Ummmm... no. I am glad he is gone, but he was right. Did he have these problems under his regime? No. Do I agree with his methods..... HELL NO! All I am asking is, what is the other way of handling Iraq? Don't pick my words apart, give me solutions.CameronPoe wrote:
Well I have to fucking laugh I must say. One-time advocates for the removal of Saddam now doing a complete 'flip flop' on the issue and actually endorsing Saddam Hussein. Welcome to zero credibility ever again.
There are no easy solutions. The solution is civil war in Iraq without intervention by foreign powers. Nations should self-determine - not have their fate determined by rich white guys who live in leafy suburbs thousands of miles away.usmarine2007 wrote:
Ummmm... no. I am glad he is gone, but he was right. Did he have these problems under his regime? No. Do I agree with his methods..... HELL NO! All I am asking is, what is the other way of handling Iraq? Don't pick my words apart, give me solutions.CameronPoe wrote:
Well I have to fucking laugh I must say. One-time advocates for the removal of Saddam now doing a complete 'flip flop' on the issue and actually endorsing Saddam Hussein. Welcome to zero credibility ever again.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-28 05:35:25)
Ok then. I agree. We need to GTFO. I am glad we took him out of power, but we have been there long enough.CameronPoe wrote:
There are no easy solutions. The solution is civil war in Iraq without intervention by foreign powers.usmarine2007 wrote:
Ummmm... no. I am glad he is gone, but he was right. Did he have these problems under his regime? No. Do I agree with his methods..... HELL NO! All I am asking is, what is the other way of handling Iraq? Don't pick my words apart, give me solutions.CameronPoe wrote:
Well I have to fucking laugh I must say. One-time advocates for the removal of Saddam now doing a complete 'flip flop' on the issue and actually endorsing Saddam Hussein. Welcome to zero credibility ever again.
OP: One could've argued the same about the American Indians of US past. Now they live on reservations, or are otherwise properly absorbed by our culture. Given lots of free stuff, though.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-11-28 05:35:55)
Maybe. But the Europeans intention was to take over and live in this country. That is not the US intentions in Iraq.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
OP: One could've argued the same about the American Indians of US past. Now they live on reservations, or are otherwise properly absorbed by our culture. Given lots of free stuff, though.
Why did you support the invasion in the related threads? Why did you call me anti-American for criticizing Bush on the invasion of Iraq? Now you think he made a huge mistake, but you aren't anti-American. Saddam was a piece of shit, but he knew how to deal with these extremists, and yes they are a few bad apples. Syria and Iran are taking advantage of this, supporting the insurgents. Now the task is harder than before, Saddam was removed, now you have a Civil War.
I agree with invading to remove him from power because of his methods of controlling his country. It was our fault for thinking people wanted to live without rape rooms and trenches full of bodies in the sand.sergeriver wrote:
Why did you support the invasion in the related threads? Why did you call me anti-American for criticizing Bush on the invasion of Iraq? Now you think he made a huge mistake, but you aren't anti-American. Saddam was a piece of shit, but he knew how to deal with these extremists, and yes they are a few bad apples. Syria and Iran are taking advantage of this, supporting the insurgents. Now the task is harder than before, Saddam was removed, now you have a Civil War.
How about Darfur. They don't need rape rooms. They do that shit in the open. BUt thats not our concern.usmarine2007 wrote:
I agree with invading to remove him from power because of his methods of controlling his country. It was our fault for thinking people wanted to live without rape rooms and trenches full of bodies in the sand.sergeriver wrote:
Why did you support the invasion in the related threads? Why did you call me anti-American for criticizing Bush on the invasion of Iraq? Now you think he made a huge mistake, but you aren't anti-American. Saddam was a piece of shit, but he knew how to deal with these extremists, and yes they are a few bad apples. Syria and Iran are taking advantage of this, supporting the insurgents. Now the task is harder than before, Saddam was removed, now you have a Civil War.
Im still in awe that Saddam has the Key to Detroit.
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2064887/detail.html
Amazing.
I'll give you the solution. Get the fuck outta there and let them fight their Civil War alone, and Iraq will split into 3 countries. Saddam is gone and now is time for the UN (big laughs) to help there. Don't worry Iran and Syria will take the lead.usmarine2007 wrote:
Ummmm... no. I am glad he is gone, but he was right. Did he have these problems under his regime? No. Do I agree with his methods..... HELL NO! All I am asking is, what is the other way of handling Iraq? Don't pick my words apart, give me solutions.CameronPoe wrote:
Well I have to fucking laugh I must say. One-time advocates for the removal of Saddam now doing a complete 'flip flop' on the issue and actually endorsing Saddam Hussein. Welcome to zero credibility ever again.
Ive said it before, the middle east and Arab men in general hold honor and revenge much higher than us westerners. Therefore they need a more brutal method of control. Saddam was brutal yes, but effective. The people themselves in time would have over thrown him.
Its time you all admitted to yourselves that the invasion of Iraqi was never about freeing the Iraqi people, but about regime change. If we are so worried about them why are we talking about pulling out when Iraqi is in its worse state in decades, leaving a corrupt government, military and police force which is infiltrated with death squads far more brutal and indiscriminate than Saddam ever was to suppress the people further?
Saddam was allowed to stay in power after Gulf War 1 because Bush thought he would toe the line. At that time Saddam had still murdered thousands of Iraqi's, Bush Junior must be a much more caring individual.
All that rubbish about saving the Iraqi people came after WMD's was proven to be a pile of crap. Bush recently admitted the claim during the build up to GW2 that "WMD have been found" was false, that was front page on every newspaper at the time. I found Bushes retraction and admission that that statement was false on page 12 of the Guardian, a left wing newspaper. Not a mention in any of the others. So its time for the media to admit it too.
Its time you all admitted to yourselves that the invasion of Iraqi was never about freeing the Iraqi people, but about regime change. If we are so worried about them why are we talking about pulling out when Iraqi is in its worse state in decades, leaving a corrupt government, military and police force which is infiltrated with death squads far more brutal and indiscriminate than Saddam ever was to suppress the people further?
Saddam was allowed to stay in power after Gulf War 1 because Bush thought he would toe the line. At that time Saddam had still murdered thousands of Iraqi's, Bush Junior must be a much more caring individual.
All that rubbish about saving the Iraqi people came after WMD's was proven to be a pile of crap. Bush recently admitted the claim during the build up to GW2 that "WMD have been found" was false, that was front page on every newspaper at the time. I found Bushes retraction and admission that that statement was false on page 12 of the Guardian, a left wing newspaper. Not a mention in any of the others. So its time for the media to admit it too.
I think we all agree that Saddam's methods were despicable.
But still, the underlying question is, is the middle east ready for democracy ? The obvious answer is no.
Real democracy is something that develops from within a culture, it cannot be enforced. If the general population has no wish for a democracy, it is simply not going to happen, no matter what.
Iraquis had lived in tribal societies for centuries before Saddam installed his dictatorship. Thus, most of them have no democratic traditions. Is democracy the best form of government ? To us, it is, but we had to learn that the hard way throughout history. And it took a while, too....
The Iraquis are simply not there yet. Will they ever be ? Who knows, but at the moment it sure doesn't look like it. This is not about giving up about somebody. It is about allowing every culture / nation on this planet to develop according to its own unique tempo.
IMHO, the US are not responsible to spread freedom and democracy around the globe. I know your president thinks differently, but he just might be wrong.
I am not saying you cannot take care of your nation's security interests. You perceived Iraq to be a threat to your security, and acted accordingly. Fine with me, although not quite in accordance with UN statutes.
But that threat was removed with the Iraqui army putting down their weapons.
All the US does now is cause its people and the Iraquis more damage. Your strategy is leading you nowhere.
Leave now, and let them handle their own affairs. It might get ugly, and you might not get the result you wish for, but it is the right of the Iraqui people to determine their own fate. Evolution is a slow process, and it cannot be rushed.
But still, the underlying question is, is the middle east ready for democracy ? The obvious answer is no.
Real democracy is something that develops from within a culture, it cannot be enforced. If the general population has no wish for a democracy, it is simply not going to happen, no matter what.
Iraquis had lived in tribal societies for centuries before Saddam installed his dictatorship. Thus, most of them have no democratic traditions. Is democracy the best form of government ? To us, it is, but we had to learn that the hard way throughout history. And it took a while, too....
The Iraquis are simply not there yet. Will they ever be ? Who knows, but at the moment it sure doesn't look like it. This is not about giving up about somebody. It is about allowing every culture / nation on this planet to develop according to its own unique tempo.
IMHO, the US are not responsible to spread freedom and democracy around the globe. I know your president thinks differently, but he just might be wrong.
I am not saying you cannot take care of your nation's security interests. You perceived Iraq to be a threat to your security, and acted accordingly. Fine with me, although not quite in accordance with UN statutes.
But that threat was removed with the Iraqui army putting down their weapons.
All the US does now is cause its people and the Iraquis more damage. Your strategy is leading you nowhere.
Leave now, and let them handle their own affairs. It might get ugly, and you might not get the result you wish for, but it is the right of the Iraqui people to determine their own fate. Evolution is a slow process, and it cannot be rushed.
In a way I agree with you marine. I am glad Saddam isnt in power because of the things hes done to the people. But you are right in the way he ran the country these problems didnt exist to my knowledge. I dont like Saddam in any way. I would rather the people care about us helping them, but we all know that isnt going to happen.
The current Iraqi government needs to find a way to take control of their own country rather than letting us do all the work. They need to get their shit straight and start taking care of their own issues. To me thats where the problem with the people lies.
The current Iraqi government needs to find a way to take control of their own country rather than letting us do all the work. They need to get their shit straight and start taking care of their own issues. To me thats where the problem with the people lies.
Don't hang him.
Best punishment would be to give him his country back and say "Good luck, we cannot do shit here".
Best punishment would be to give him his country back and say "Good luck, we cannot do shit here".
You kinda have to stop & think usmarine2007, we went there to "kick Saddam out"..... But we have stayed there a Helluva long time, holding Martial law over these people. Under Martial laws, you are told where you can go, when you can go, how you can go, etc. Because the Soldier or Marine standing in the street guarding areas doesn't want to die, he is attentive to folks walking about, milling around, possibly casing his post. He shifts around uneasily, possibly adjusts his weapon several times, "checks sights" to make malingering people think of being elsewhere, and damn soon.
This builds a seriously tense climate, & tense is a breeding ground for hate & violence. A few bad apples, can easily convert young guys who are fed & and want to do something, but are to young and inexperienced to know how to do it right, through building a strong Government. It's easy to convince those kids that "The White Devils have invaded us, & will not let our country be free ever more".
It's bogus, but be honest, don't you think guys like Bush & Cheney, Political Money Families, are going to do their best to seat in a Government good for them, & not the Iraqi Poeple? The Terrorist Element of the Iraqi culture is a small wedge, but the long we are there, the more fuel that fire has to burn, & build, upon.
I say get our guys out of there, let them go through a civil war if that's what it takes, then support their recover if it's needed- but let them fix their country, quit trying to do it for them. All the "Power Cards" of the Iraqi Regime have been beaten down, now let it's people heal their country. The civilains there are just like you & I, they want to live in peace for the most part to. Have a beer, watch a race, chat with Habib about the kids & the livestock, or what happened at work yesterday. Get our guys back here, quit killing them for another country. I spent 5yrs in the Marine Corps, & I was fortunate enough to not be sent there as a "Military Adviser" I joined to defend America & her Values, not force them on to other cultures.
This builds a seriously tense climate, & tense is a breeding ground for hate & violence. A few bad apples, can easily convert young guys who are fed & and want to do something, but are to young and inexperienced to know how to do it right, through building a strong Government. It's easy to convince those kids that "The White Devils have invaded us, & will not let our country be free ever more".
It's bogus, but be honest, don't you think guys like Bush & Cheney, Political Money Families, are going to do their best to seat in a Government good for them, & not the Iraqi Poeple? The Terrorist Element of the Iraqi culture is a small wedge, but the long we are there, the more fuel that fire has to burn, & build, upon.
I say get our guys out of there, let them go through a civil war if that's what it takes, then support their recover if it's needed- but let them fix their country, quit trying to do it for them. All the "Power Cards" of the Iraqi Regime have been beaten down, now let it's people heal their country. The civilains there are just like you & I, they want to live in peace for the most part to. Have a beer, watch a race, chat with Habib about the kids & the livestock, or what happened at work yesterday. Get our guys back here, quit killing them for another country. I spent 5yrs in the Marine Corps, & I was fortunate enough to not be sent there as a "Military Adviser" I joined to defend America & her Values, not force them on to other cultures.
Saddam was right in that there needs to be insanely strict rule in that region for there to be peace. Too many of its citizens refuse to adopt a moderate lifestyle and those that want to can't as a result. That means once we leave, it's only going to get worse and another dictator or extremist will rise to power, which would make the entire war effort a waste of time. No amount of military intervention or diplomacy will change that fact about the Middle East. If they want to live like animals in the year 1400, we might as well just let them.
I don't think there's anything "right" about Saddam. He was a seriously ruthless dude. He was possibly "good" at controlling his people and I don't think his people were necessarily stupid or weak or any more animals than we are. If you think about it, our forefathers had it made...they weren't run by a dictator on this soil so they had a huge advantage that the patriot iraqi's never had. Their country is the size of California so if they coordinated any overthrow, it would have been much more easily thwarted.
I'm with Michael Moore in suggesting that it was up to them to decide freedom or not..not up to us. HE cites the French in helping us win our independence while not staying around as occupiers. The best thing we could have done in Iraq is help the people there accomplish an overthrow of Saddam. Give them an armored division, we supply air support, and arm and train them as we've done to their police...THEN march on baghdad. Of course i know nothing of the logistics or reality of what i just said..but i'm sure someone could have figured it out. But in short, helping them get their own freedom from Saddam would have been wise...but they'd have to make sure they'd want it.
I'm with Michael Moore in suggesting that it was up to them to decide freedom or not..not up to us. HE cites the French in helping us win our independence while not staying around as occupiers. The best thing we could have done in Iraq is help the people there accomplish an overthrow of Saddam. Give them an armored division, we supply air support, and arm and train them as we've done to their police...THEN march on baghdad. Of course i know nothing of the logistics or reality of what i just said..but i'm sure someone could have figured it out. But in short, helping them get their own freedom from Saddam would have been wise...but they'd have to make sure they'd want it.
Muqtada al Sadr will be that leader once he's ganked Maliki and Jalal ..whatever his name is.. Then when/if we fight with him..we'll be fighting Iran too probably.... yum!Fancy_Pollux wrote:
That means once we leave, it's only going to get worse and another dictator or extremist will rise to power, which would make the entire war effort a waste of time.
Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-11-28 13:45:12)
i agree with him, they are animals. you see us constantly burning iraqi flags? noDonFck wrote:
So.. ..control through fear is the way to go, eh, Stalin? You refer to Iraqis as "animals", nice!
DonFck wrote:
So.. ..control through fear is the way to go, eh, Stalin? You refer to Iraqis as "animals", nice!
but..... we started it. how will that make us look if we just leave and let them be? even worseusmarine2007 wrote:
I didn't before, but I do now. I have seen enough people die for people who do not even give a shit ( Vietnam?) It is truly annoying. I say we leave and let them figure it out. Enough is enough. We have been there a long time, so this "we can't just leave them" argument is getting old.Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
Does this make you unpatriotic?
People said this 2 years ago and they were unpatriotic american hating liberals who need to be shipped to Gitmo.
You sure you feel this way?
They're animals because they burn US flags? that's it? You're willing to ignorantly call a nation of people "animals" because they burn flags? Or could it be more accurate to assume that because they look different, behave different, and talk different that they're animals?James-M-II wrote:
i agree with him, they are animals. you see us constantly burning iraqi flags? noDonFck wrote:
So.. ..control through fear is the way to go, eh, Stalin? You refer to Iraqis as "animals", nice!
Seriously, there is ZERO difference between their humanity and ours. It's appalling that ANYONE would criticize a nation of people based on some ignorant criteria like the sordid clips you see on TV, or because of an overwhelming opinion from like-minded ignoramuses.
If you've actually met foreigners, let alone Iraqis (or other arabs, persians, or western asians) you'd realize they are just like us..perhaps not as greedy, gluttonous, or immature.
Sad stuff man..this makes me feel like I'm in Alabama or Mississippi at the height of the segregation based crime period!
Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-11-28 13:59:08)