Something people tend to forget about the Third World is that the First World depends on the Third World in order to maintain it's wealth. By exploiting the people in nations like Iraq, we maintain our own standard of living. Thus, for the standard of living to go up in Iraq, the standard of living in the US and other advanced, industrialized nations must go down. It's fine and dandy to say you support the political and economic development of Iraq, but if that same development were to threaten your standard of living, would you be as OK with it? Ask yourself if you're willing to give up your TV, your car, your PC, your job, your home... so someone living in Iraq can have those things.
Poll
Would you give up your car for an Iraqi Citizen?
| Yes | 16% | 16% - 19 | ||||
| No | 83% | 83% - 93 | ||||
| Total: 112 | ||||||
I don't have a car.
But wouldn't it be more useful to give them something else - like funding a decent police force?
But wouldn't it be more useful to give them something else - like funding a decent police force?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Well, the point is this, ask your selfSpark wrote:
I don't have a car.
But wouldn't it be more useful to give them something else - like funding a decent police force?
Am I willing to give up [a luxury I really like] so Iraqi's can have [Insert whatever you think they need]
Why Iraq? Why didn't you use a real third world country? Iraq is pretty damn wealthy in natural resources, you know. Oh, I see.. ..shock value.
Can I see some actual factual economic calculations that support this theory that if everyone were equal, all would be poor and miserable? I sense anti-communism in you..
Can I see some actual factual economic calculations that support this theory that if everyone were equal, all would be poor and miserable? I sense anti-communism in you..
I need around tree fiddy.
I voted yes, but as things would never come to such a situation I have nothing to worry about . PLus look at dubai they're doing well.
Last edited by daffytag (2006-11-28 03:04:30)
The western world leeched our riches off the misery and exploitation of others for the past god-knows-how-many centuries, through the actions of the British, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Belgian, Dutch, Roman, Habsburg, Austro-Hungarian, Byzantine and Greek empires. We can't be blamed for the way in which our ancestors raped the world but we have a moral obligation not to continue shafting the rest of the world (much like the modern incarnation of the empires of old does - the USA - through military and economic imperialism).
shock value works. If you want, replace Iraq with Somalia or Sudan, it doesn't really matter. I just picked Iraq because it's the Media's lapdog right now.DonFck wrote:
Why Iraq? Why didn't you use a real third world country? Iraq is pretty damn wealthy in natural resources, you know. Oh, I see.. ..shock value.
Can I see some actual factual economic calculations that support this theory that if everyone were equal, all would be poor and miserable? I sense anti-communism in you..
Dependancy Theory and World-Systems Theory doesn't say that if all were equal, all would be poor and miserable. In fact, its actually a sort of Marxist theory. It basically states that there are Core states and these states have a large group of lesser states (the periphery) in which they dominate. The states that dominate them have economic power and are wealthy, and the states they dominate are impoverised and underdeveloped. The core states exploit the periphery for resources, labor, and markets. The core nations are thus dependant on the periphery for their economy. They thus use political, military, and economic power to enforce the conditions in the periphery to ensure that their standard of living does not suffer.
Since the economy of the core nations is structured so that it is dependant on the periphery, if the periphery were to break from the core, the economy in the core nation would collapse.
Spark wrote:
I don't have a car.
I still don't believe that current neo-colonialism/imperialism is the sole reason of the wealth of western nations. But that's.. ..IMHO.Elamdri wrote:
shock value works. If you want, replace Iraq with Somalia or Sudan, it doesn't really matter. I just picked Iraq because it's the Media's lapdog right now.DonFck wrote:
Why Iraq? Why didn't you use a real third world country? Iraq is pretty damn wealthy in natural resources, you know. Oh, I see.. ..shock value.
Can I see some actual factual economic calculations that support this theory that if everyone were equal, all would be poor and miserable? I sense anti-communism in you..
Dependancy Theory and World-Systems Theory doesn't say that if all were equal, all would be poor and miserable. In fact, its actually a sort of Marxist theory. It basically states that there are Core states and these states have a large group of lesser states (the periphery) in which they dominate. The states that dominate them have economic power and are wealthy, and the states they dominate are impoverised and underdeveloped. The core states exploit the periphery for resources, labor, and markets. The core nations are thus dependant on the periphery for their economy. They thus use political, military, and economic power to enforce the conditions in the periphery to ensure that their standard of living does not suffer.
Since the economy of the core nations is structured so that it is dependant on the periphery, if the periphery were to break from the core, the economy in the core nation would collapse.
I need around tree fiddy.
Now ya got me wondering, how Kuwait and its citizens are exploited and oppressed by us. I ask since they probably live better than you or I do. Just to be clear on this, your position is, countries like the US are keeping countries like Iraq, down. It isn't the tyranical dictaterships or the tribal warlords that steal all the aid that flows into their countries, it is the "rich" countries. Got it now. and just what is it exactly that we export from Iraq that is being "exploited"?Elamdri wrote:
Something people tend to forget about the Third World is that the First World depends on the Third World in order to maintain it's wealth. By exploiting the people in nations like Iraq, we maintain our own standard of living. Thus, for the standard of living to go up in Iraq, the standard of living in the US and other advanced, industrialized nations must go down. It's fine and dandy to say you support the political and economic development of Iraq, but if that same development were to threaten your standard of living, would you be as OK with it? Ask yourself if you're willing to give up your TV, your car, your PC, your job, your home... so someone living in Iraq can have those things.
No, to any requests to give up anything to the people of Iraq.
Im not saying I dont feel at all for them but whats more important to me is my Daughter.
She is who I live for, work for etc.
How I would I explain why these things have suddenley vanished from our lives to her?
Im not saying I dont feel at all for them but whats more important to me is my Daughter.
She is who I live for, work for etc.
How I would I explain why these things have suddenley vanished from our lives to her?
Hmm.. Why on earth would one of the biggest consumers of fossil fuels have interest in Middle-Eastern countries..?lowing wrote:
Now ya got me wondering, how Kuwait and its citizens are exploited and oppressed by us. I ask since they probably live better than you or I do. Just to be clear on this, your position is, countries like the US are keeping countries like Iraq, down. It isn't the tyranical dictaterships or the tribal warlords that steal all the aid that flows into their countries, it is the "rich" countries. Got it now. and just what is it exactly that we export from Iraq that is being "exploited"?Elamdri wrote:
Something people tend to forget about the Third World is that the First World depends on the Third World in order to maintain it's wealth. By exploiting the people in nations like Iraq, we maintain our own standard of living. Thus, for the standard of living to go up in Iraq, the standard of living in the US and other advanced, industrialized nations must go down. It's fine and dandy to say you support the political and economic development of Iraq, but if that same development were to threaten your standard of living, would you be as OK with it? Ask yourself if you're willing to give up your TV, your car, your PC, your job, your home... so someone living in Iraq can have those things.
Nah, you smart people talk on, I can't figure it out.. I'll go draw now.
I need around tree fiddy.
re-read junior, Kuwait is a world oil supplier and there is not 1 citizen there who is "exploited" by any rich nation. My point is, it is the third world countries GOVT> that is being oppressive not EVERYONE ELSE.DonFck wrote:
Hmm.. Why on earth would one of the biggest consumers of fossil fuels have interest in Middle-Eastern countries..?lowing wrote:
Now ya got me wondering, how Kuwait and its citizens are exploited and oppressed by us. I ask since they probably live better than you or I do. Just to be clear on this, your position is, countries like the US are keeping countries like Iraq, down. It isn't the tyrannical dictatorships or the tribal warlords that steal all the aid that flows into their countries, it is the "rich" countries. Got it now. and just what is it exactly that we export from Iraq that is being "exploited"?Elamdri wrote:
Something people tend to forget about the Third World is that the First World depends on the Third World in order to maintain it's wealth. By exploiting the people in nations like Iraq, we maintain our own standard of living. Thus, for the standard of living to go up in Iraq, the standard of living in the US and other advanced, industrialized nations must go down. It's fine and dandy to say you support the political and economic development of Iraq, but if that same development were to threaten your standard of living, would you be as OK with it? Ask yourself if you're willing to give up your TV, your car, your PC, your job, your home... so someone living in Iraq can have those things.
Nah, you smart people talk on, I can't figure it out.. I'll go draw now.
The fact that you didn't respond to anything in the post suggest you really couldn't.
Last edited by lowing (2006-11-28 03:36:28)
The fact that I didn't respond to anything in the post suggests more to:lowing wrote:
The fact that you didn't respond to anything in the post suggest you really couldn't.
1. I like to back up my statements with sources
2. I'm at work; can't be bothered to get you some of those sources
3. Stating facts to people in D&ST has as much effect as telling George Michael not to be gay
4. Kuwait is not oppressed, but more the pampered baby of the U.S.. Haven't seen similar immediate U.S. response (ref. Desert Storm) regarding.. ..let's say.. Chechnya. (Imagine I didn't just say that because of #3)
5. I suppose you've seen "Black Hawk Down" too many times
6. I'll try not to D&ST further on this topic (See #:s 2 & 3)
Last edited by DonFck (2006-11-28 04:04:07)
I need around tree fiddy.
Well then don't quote a post if you are not going to address THAT post.DonFck wrote:
The fact that I didn't respond to anything in the post suggests more to:lowing wrote:
The fact that you didn't respond to anything in the post suggest you really couldn't.
1. I like to back up my statements with sources
2. I'm at work; can't be bothered to get you some of those sources
3. Stating facts to people in D&ST has as much effect as telling George Michael not to be gay
4. Kuwait is not oppressed, but more the pampered baby of the U.S.. Haven't seen similar immediate U.S. response (ref. Desert Storm) regarding.. ..let's say.. Chechnya. (Imagine I didn't just say that because of #3)
5. I suppose you've seen "Black Hawk Down" too many times
6. bai.
SO when a country is wealthy it is pampered by the US, and when a country is oppressed, it is neglected by the US.
Got it now, well yer in the wrong thread the "lets blame BUSH and AMERICA for all the worlds problems" thread is half a page down.
By supporting said government we are complicit. And there are also these kinds of things...lowing wrote:
re-read junior, Kuwait is a world oil supplier and there is not 1 citizen there who is "exploited" by any rich nation. My point is, it is the third world countries GOVT> that is being oppressive not EVERYONE ELSE.
The fact that you didn't respond to anything in the post suggest you really couldn't.
http://www.indiaresource.org/campaigns/ … otest.html
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/colombia0106/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburto … s_of_fraud
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-28 03:59:35)
Since when is the coke company run by the US govt? I just skimmed your articles but it also sounds like they are meeting Resistance for their venture.CameronPoe wrote:
By supporting said government we are complicit. And there are also these kinds of things...lowing wrote:
re-read junior, Kuwait is a world oil supplier and there is not 1 citizen there who is "exploited" by any rich nation. My point is, it is the third world countries GOVT> that is being oppressive not EVERYONE ELSE.
The fact that you didn't respond to anything in the post suggest you really couldn't.
http://www.indiaresource.org/campaigns/ … otest.html
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/colombia0106/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburto … s_of_fraud
wow a contracting company making money off of a war?? who ever heard of such a thing? I bet Boeing didn't make a dime during WW2, producing B-17's and B-29's.
Last edited by lowing (2006-11-28 04:04:50)
I never blamed America/Bush (these two are separate things btw), obviusly you're trying to build a situation where this thread will become that. You fail. I never said either that "when a country is oppressed, it is neglected by the US." You did.lowing wrote:
Got it now, well yer in the wrong thread the "lets blame BUSH and AMERICA for all the worlds problems" thread is half a page down.
Don't put words in peoples mouths and you'll do fine.
I need around tree fiddy.
I don't condone slavery, especially not the owning of an Iraqi citizen.
Well Lowing - this is the thing - the movement of global capital is the new imperialism. America lives and dies by the performance of its multinational corporations. The absolute bottom line in corporate decision making is the dollar. This is generally to the detriment of the poor unfortunates roped into whatever free trade agreement the WTO and world bank has imposed upon them. And it's not just America - it's Europe, Japan and the rest of the west too. We all exploit for profit. And our governments support corrupt regimes and start wars so that our foreign business interests are catered for.lowing wrote:
Since when is the coke company run by the US govt? I just skimmed your articles but it also sounds like they are meeting Resistance for their venture.CameronPoe wrote:
By supporting said government we are complicit. And there are also these kinds of things...lowing wrote:
re-read junior, Kuwait is a world oil supplier and there is not 1 citizen there who is "exploited" by any rich nation. My point is, it is the third world countries GOVT> that is being oppressive not EVERYONE ELSE.
The fact that you didn't respond to anything in the post suggest you really couldn't.
http://www.indiaresource.org/campaigns/ … otest.html
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/colombia0106/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburto … s_of_fraud
wow a contracting company making money off of a war?? who ever heard of such a thing? I bet Boeing didn't make a dime during WW2, producing B-17's and B-29's.
To use an example oft-overlooked: the west SHOULD come down like a ton of bricks on Myanmar (Burma) for human rights violations but doesn't because of oil.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-28 04:15:40)
then ya might wanna delete this quotes from your posts.........DonFck wrote:
I never blamed America/Bush (these two are separate things btw), obviusly you're trying to build a situation where this thread will become that. You fail. I never said either that "when a country is oppressed, it is neglected by the US." You did.lowing wrote:
Got it now, well yer in the wrong thread the "lets blame BUSH and AMERICA for all the worlds problems" thread is half a page down.
Don't put words in peoples mouths and you'll do fine.
"Kuwait is not oppressed, but more the pampered baby of the U.S.."
"By exploiting the people in nations like Iraq, we maintain our own standard of living. Thus, for the standard of living to go up in Iraq, the standard of living in the US and other advanced, industrialized nations must go down"
"Why on earth would one of the biggest consumers of fossil fuels have interest in Middle-Eastern countries."
or am I just ASSUMING you meant to implicate the US.
I agree but it is ultimately the corrupt third world govt leaders that are looking out for themselves and not their citizens.CameronPoe wrote:
Well Lowing - this is the thing - the movement of global capital is the new imperialism. America lives and dies by the performance of its multinational corporations. The absolute bottom line in corporate decision making is the dollar. This is generally to the detriment of the poor unfortunates roped into whatever free trade agreement the WTO and world bank has imposed upon them. And it's not just America - it's Europe, Japan and the rest of the west too. We all exploit for profit. And our governments support corrupt regimes and start wars so that our foreign business interests are catered for.lowing wrote:
Since when is the coke company run by the US govt? I just skimmed your articles but it also sounds like they are meeting Resistance for their venture.CameronPoe wrote:
By supporting said government we are complicit. And there are also these kinds of things...
http://www.indiaresource.org/campaigns/ … otest.html
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/colombia0106/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburto … s_of_fraud
wow a contracting company making money off of a war?? who ever heard of such a thing? I bet Boeing didn't make a dime during WW2, producing B-17's and B-29's.
lowing wrote:
then ya might wanna delete this quotes from your posts.........DonFck wrote:
I never blamed America/Bush (these two are separate things btw), obviusly you're trying to build a situation where this thread will become that. You fail. I never said either that "when a country is oppressed, it is neglected by the US." You did.lowing wrote:
Got it now, well yer in the wrong thread the "lets blame BUSH and AMERICA for all the worlds problems" thread is half a page down.
Don't put words in peoples mouths and you'll do fine.
"Kuwait is not oppressed, but more the pampered baby of the U.S.."
I'm not blaming anyone here, just stating the obvious.
"By exploiting the people in nations like Iraq, we maintain our own standard of living. Thus, for the standard of living to go up in Iraq, the standard of living in the US and other advanced, industrialized nations must go down"
I didn't even say that
"Why on earth would one of the biggest consumers of fossil fuels have interest in Middle-Eastern countries."
Again not blame. Just stating the obvious in the form of sarcasm
or am I just ASSUMING you meant to implicate the US.
D-uh.
Last edited by DonFck (2006-11-28 04:18:23)
I need around tree fiddy.
Why did you bring up Kuwait? People are talking about Iraq and then you bring up Kuwait, why?lowing wrote:
"Kuwait is not oppressed, but more the pampered baby of the U.S.."
I you're going to quote, do it right.TeamZephyr wrote:
Why did you bring up Kuwait? People are talking about Iraq and then you bring up Kuwait, why?lowing wrote:
"Kuwait is not oppressed, but more the pampered baby of the U.S.."
I need around tree fiddy.