...interesting...yet i get the feeling this may happen a surprising amount more often than this here, and that this was only shown because it had the media pull of the 'just before he married' kind of thing....
ok lets look at this the way the officers on the scene did...
you see three guys come out of this club known for gun problems... they get in their car and apparently try to run your fellow officer over... then they ram your under cover police car... in your mind you thinking THIS IS NOT GOOD, I AM BEING ATTACKED... you don't know what is going to happen next, are they going to get out and shoot me now? so you pull you gun... (the Glocks that NY police use have 18 round clips) you open fire at the car... so does the other officer... bang bang 1 guy dead 2 wounded...
you guys must realize that these are NY police, they are the toughest cops in the world and are used to gunfights. they are trained in firearm efficiency, they can fire 18 shots on target and reload in a matter of seconds... they probably continued to fire as long as the car kept moving... so 50 shots is easily feasible and reasonable especial if there where several police firing... they where simply trying to defend themselves. unfortunately somebody got killed.
you see three guys come out of this club known for gun problems... they get in their car and apparently try to run your fellow officer over... then they ram your under cover police car... in your mind you thinking THIS IS NOT GOOD, I AM BEING ATTACKED... you don't know what is going to happen next, are they going to get out and shoot me now? so you pull you gun... (the Glocks that NY police use have 18 round clips) you open fire at the car... so does the other officer... bang bang 1 guy dead 2 wounded...
you guys must realize that these are NY police, they are the toughest cops in the world and are used to gunfights. they are trained in firearm efficiency, they can fire 18 shots on target and reload in a matter of seconds... they probably continued to fire as long as the car kept moving... so 50 shots is easily feasible and reasonable especial if there where several police firing... they where simply trying to defend themselves. unfortunately somebody got killed.
Last edited by JohnLeavitt (2006-11-27 12:27:42)
That, and of course there's going to be a million "independent" investigations to find out the truth, if possible.JohnLeavitt wrote:
ok lets look at this the way the officers on the scene did...
you see three guys come out of this club known for gun problems... they get in their car and apparently try to run your fellow officer over... then they ram your under cover police car... in your mind you thinking THIS IS NOT GOOD, I AM BEING ATTACKED... you don't know what is going to happen next, are they going to get out and shoot me now? so you pull you gun... (the Glocks that NY police use have 18 round clips) you open fire at the car... so does the other officer... bang bang 1 guy dead 2 wounded...
you guys must realize that these are NY police, they are the toughest cops in the world and are used to gunfights. they are trained in firearm efficiency, they can fire 18 shots on target and reload in a matter of seconds... they probably continued to fire as long as the car kept moving... so 50 shots is easily feasible and reasonable especial if there where several police firing... they where simply trying to defend themselves. unfortunately somebody got killed.
I've talked to police officers before and they said that basically, when you feel your life is threatened, even though you're trained to shoot in a controlled way, think about it. Are you going to count "1, 2, 3" shots or are you going to pull the trigger until you feel safe? I'm sorry but like it was said, cops are humans. They car wasn't stopping so they kept shooting.
Its like that video where the huge guy is getting beaten by many cops and it looks like they are just a bunch of mean motherfuckers beating on this poor guy but it turns out he was resisting arrest, was on crystal meth, kept coming at them, wouldnt relent, etc etc.
***CONTEXT IS KEY***
Unless you are a police officer in America, how can you say what is the correct response to a given situation? Because you know what's "right" and what's "wrong" ? Who are you to say this? Please, someone who's got like a degree in this subject, don't post here saying you do and you know everything blah blah, this is for the (can't think of a great term) guy who sits behind his computer desk with a tinfoil hat that thinks that everything that happens in the world is an injustice and that the only reason there is any wrongdoing is because of America.
Its like that video where the huge guy is getting beaten by many cops and it looks like they are just a bunch of mean motherfuckers beating on this poor guy but it turns out he was resisting arrest, was on crystal meth, kept coming at them, wouldnt relent, etc etc.
***CONTEXT IS KEY***
Unless you are a police officer in America, how can you say what is the correct response to a given situation? Because you know what's "right" and what's "wrong" ? Who are you to say this? Please, someone who's got like a degree in this subject, don't post here saying you do and you know everything blah blah, this is for the (can't think of a great term) guy who sits behind his computer desk with a tinfoil hat that thinks that everything that happens in the world is an injustice and that the only reason there is any wrongdoing is because of America.
I don't buy that, nor do the family of the deceased, or his fiance, or the 200 people holding a vigil for the deceased.JohnLeavitt wrote:
ok lets look at this the way the officers on the scene did...
you see three guys come out of this club known for gun problems... they get in their car and apparently try to run your fellow officer over... then they ram your under cover police car... in your mind you thinking THIS IS NOT GOOD, I AM BEING ATTACKED... you don't know what is going to happen next, are they going to get out and shoot me now? so you pull you gun... (the Glocks that NY police use have 18 round clips) you open fire at the car... so does the other officer... bang bang 1 guy dead 2 wounded...
you guys must realize that these are NY police, they are the toughest cops in the world and are used to gunfights. they are trained in firearm efficiency, they can fire 18 shots on target and reload in a matter of seconds... they probably continued to fire as long as the car kept moving... so 50 shots is easily feasible and reasonable especial if there where several police firing... they where simply trying to defend themselves. unfortunately somebody got killed.
Apparently neither does Bloomberg, who has said he expects a grand jury to investigate.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/nyc.sh … index.html
what if the suspects are pointing guns at you? do you fire then even if they don't shoot? i know i would.R3v4n wrote:
Do not fire, unless fired upon.
thats all i would like to add.
Unmarked police car and an undercover officer were struck. I'm sure if they knew that they had accidentally hit a cop and a cop car, they would've stopped. This is pathetic. Only goes to show cops are fucking stupid.
Well If the gun is drawn than the police is allowed to fire, probably. They dont have to wait for one of them to be hit. But police thinking that there might be a chance that someone might have a gun should not be a probable cause to start blasting away.
Also they cant consider a car that clipped a cop to be a gun. And even If they DID than they fired 50 bullets at 1 armed man in extreemely close proximity, and technicaly sorrounded by 2 unarmed civilians. Also very unproffesional in my oppinion. Pressuming that only the driver had a "gun" (car).
And btw 50 bullets fired and only 21 hits. Accuracy less than 50 %
Also they cant consider a car that clipped a cop to be a gun. And even If they DID than they fired 50 bullets at 1 armed man in extreemely close proximity, and technicaly sorrounded by 2 unarmed civilians. Also very unproffesional in my oppinion. Pressuming that only the driver had a "gun" (car).
And btw 50 bullets fired and only 21 hits. Accuracy less than 50 %
lol, even in this racist, biased report, it says the mayor doesn't even know what happened fully..yet the whole world has it's panties in a bunch crying "Racist killings in NY!!!" because dipshit Al Sharpton thinks it was racially motivated! Damn I hate those bastards and the press that keep racism alive.
The firing of 50 shots..half of which risked life behind the vehicle, was indeed reckless and will result in some discipline hopefully.
Not sure where you're getting this, but when that vehicle hit the officer on the leg, that's felony hit and run, it's also attempted murder because the vehicle is considered a deadly weapon. That ends the debate of probable cause.zeidmaan wrote:
Also they cant consider a car that clipped a cop to be a gun
The firing of 50 shots..half of which risked life behind the vehicle, was indeed reckless and will result in some discipline hopefully.
-Hit and run involves LEAVING the scene.IRONCHEF wrote:
Not sure where you're getting this, but when that vehicle hit the officer on the leg, that's felony hit and run, it's also attempted murder because the vehicle is considered a deadly weapon. That ends the debate of probable cause.
-A car may be a deadly weapon, but it is still legal to use in self defence, and not automatically attempted murder if you ram someone.
Please dont even pretend to know legal law. Hitting someone with a car is NOT attempted murder and neither is hitting a police man hit and run.IRONCHEF wrote:
lol, even in this racist, biased report, it says the mayor doesn't even know what happened fully..yet the whole world has it's panties in a bunch crying "Racist killings in NY!!!" because dipshit Al Sharpton thinks it was racially motivated! Damn I hate those bastards and the press that keep racism alive.Not sure where you're getting this, but when that vehicle hit the officer on the leg, that's felony hit and run, it's also attempted murder because the vehicle is considered a deadly weapon. That ends the debate of probable cause.zeidmaan wrote:
Also they cant consider a car that clipped a cop to be a gun
The firing of 50 shots..half of which risked life behind the vehicle, was indeed reckless and will result in some discipline hopefully.
Hitting anyone and leaving is hit and run.
Well they sure has hell didn't leave.SlightlySto0pid wrote:
Hitting anyone and leaving is hit and run.
What is this? We can name a whopping TWO incidents of probable poor judgement on a policemans account that ends up causing someone their life so now all cops are power hungry opressors of the people who incite more trouble than they prevent every single day?
Who said this?DesertFox423 wrote:
What is this? We can name a whopping TWO incidents of probable poor judgement on a policemans account that ends up causing someone their life so now all cops are power hungry opressors of the people who incite more trouble than they prevent every single day?
That's basically what the point of this thread is.DesertFox423 wrote:
What is this? We can name a whopping TWO incidents of probable poor judgement on a policemans account that ends up causing someone their life so now all cops are power hungry opressors of the people who incite more trouble than they prevent every single day?
Last edited by BigmacK (2006-11-27 13:22:21)
Not pretending, I'm telling it as it is and I'm right. That vehicle, having hit that officer will be considered hit and run, period. And because of the full context of the event, it will also be considered as attempted murder. I work in a law office, I live in a high crime area where this is common behavior, and I know enough policemen to know that this scenario involved those broken laws. But the dude is dead so no charges will come to him, but they will be mentioned..if the MSM reports are accurate.Vilham wrote:
Please dont even pretend to know legal law. Hitting someone with a car is NOT attempted murder and neither is hitting a police man hit and run.IRONCHEF wrote:
lol, even in this racist, biased report, it says the mayor doesn't even know what happened fully..yet the whole world has it's panties in a bunch crying "Racist killings in NY!!!" because dipshit Al Sharpton thinks it was racially motivated! Damn I hate those bastards and the press that keep racism alive.Not sure where you're getting this, but when that vehicle hit the officer on the leg, that's felony hit and run, it's also attempted murder because the vehicle is considered a deadly weapon. That ends the debate of probable cause.zeidmaan wrote:
Also they cant consider a car that clipped a cop to be a gun
The firing of 50 shots..half of which risked life behind the vehicle, was indeed reckless and will result in some discipline hopefully.
The cop firing on the vehicle that hit him obviously meant to his discretion that it was attempted murder.
I thought is more on the lack of responsibilty and culpabillity for those misjudgements, and the potential for widespread abuse because of said immunity.BigmacK wrote:
That's basically what the point of this thread is.DesertFox423 wrote:
What is this? We can name a whopping TWO incidents of probable poor judgement on a policemans account that ends up causing someone their life so now all cops are power hungry opressors of the people who incite more trouble than they prevent every single day?
Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-11-27 13:31:11)
He was driving??? what kind of bastards make the stag drive?IRONCHEF wrote:
Not pretending, I'm telling it as it is and I'm right. That vehicle, having hit that officer will be considered hit and run, period. And because of the full context of the event, it will also be considered as attempted murder. I work in a law office, I live in a high crime area where this is common behavior, and I know enough policemen to know that this scenario involved those broken laws. But the dude is dead so no charges will come to him, but they will be mentioned..if the MSM reports are accurate.Vilham wrote:
Please dont even pretend to know legal law. Hitting someone with a car is NOT attempted murder and neither is hitting a police man hit and run.IRONCHEF wrote:
lol, even in this racist, biased report, it says the mayor doesn't even know what happened fully..yet the whole world has it's panties in a bunch crying "Racist killings in NY!!!" because dipshit Al Sharpton thinks it was racially motivated! Damn I hate those bastards and the press that keep racism alive.
Not sure where you're getting this, but when that vehicle hit the officer on the leg, that's felony hit and run, it's also attempted murder because the vehicle is considered a deadly weapon. That ends the debate of probable cause.
The firing of 50 shots..half of which risked life behind the vehicle, was indeed reckless and will result in some discipline hopefully.
The cop firing on the vehicle that hit him obviously meant to his discretion that it was attempted murder.
Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-11-27 13:27:10)
This is not known. But for arguments sake, let's imagine that the cop that was hit by their car opened fire on them for a good reason..unless you're hellbent on accepting that all cops are criminals that shoot at will. It's probably also reasonable to assume that the officer may have even identified himself since we know he did pursue the three men to their vehicle. It sounds as though he may have tried stopping them and jumped out of the way as they fled and clipped him in the leg. But that's just me assuming..surely it's more likely the dude just felt like capping three guys cuz they're black..in Queens NY..just because he's white and had a loaded gun...Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
Well they sure has hell didn't leave.SlightlySto0pid wrote:
Hitting anyone and leaving is hit and run.
I like to think the 2-3 stories posted here the past few days is a good debate topic for the forum. Like the 92 year old grandma who was shot. I saw more details and in my mind feel the police were justified. THis story is a bit more crazy with 50 shots being fired on unarmed men.BigmacK wrote:
That's basically what the point of this thread is.DesertFox423 wrote:
What is this? We can name a whopping TWO incidents of probable poor judgement on a policemans account that ends up causing someone their life so now all cops are power hungry opressors of the people who incite more trouble than they prevent every single day?
For all we know the cops got thier "undercover operation" mixed up with a few drunk drivers.
But presenting each story on this forum opens the story up for a good debate. Cops aren't always right in thier use of force and most of the time they are.
So throwing these stories out there for the 2 sided debate of these forums is always a good mental workout as long as it stays civil.
I don't think every police officer is a menace to its cities citizens. But I like to to debate the cases.
Overall, I feel the point of the "police brutality" threads are to produce an opportunity for good debate.
Well said Mason. And +1 for the thought/debate provoking thread.
A testament to the cops' competence is that they fired 50 bulllets, and 21 of them hit the car.
Not only did they not know when to use their guns, but they also apparently don't know how.
If they don't get manslaughter, the justice system has failed miserably.
Not only did they not know when to use their guns, but they also apparently don't know how.
If they don't get manslaughter, the justice system has failed miserably.
I respect and agree with that.Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
I like to think the 2-3 stories posted here the past few days is a good debate topic for the forum. Like the 92 year old grandma who was shot. I saw more details and in my mind feel the police were justified. THis story is a bit more crazy with 50 shots being fired on unarmed men.BigmacK wrote:
That's basically what the point of this thread is.DesertFox423 wrote:
What is this? We can name a whopping TWO incidents of probable poor judgement on a policemans account that ends up causing someone their life so now all cops are power hungry opressors of the people who incite more trouble than they prevent every single day?
For all we know the cops got thier "undercover operation" mixed up with a few drunk drivers.
But presenting each story on this forum opens the story up for a good debate. Cops aren't always right in thier use of force and most of the time they are.
So throwing these stories out there for the 2 sided debate of these forums is always a good mental workout as long as it stays civil.
I don't think every police officer is a menace to its cities citizens. But I like to to debate the cases.
Overall, I feel the point of the "police brutality" threads are to produce an opportunity for good debate.
well, I am sorry, but I don't think that's true:IRONCHEF wrote:
No. What happened ISN'T KNOWN YET... Why must you continue to perpetuate the MSM derived witch hunt mentality that grips the majority of Americans?? lol
The guys in the car hit a human being. The human was a cop and he then has a legal right to react with deadly force. it's that simple. What verbal exchanges were voiced IS UNKNOWN so it's foolish to suppose the MSM just got it right given their shitty record of nailing someone as a victim.
I hate repeating myself, but here you go: http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 1#p1008901
""The police department’s policy on shooting at moving vehicles states: “Police officers shall not discharge their firearms at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly force is being used against the police officers or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle.”"
In other words, even if a suspect was actually trying to run you over with his car, you'd not be allowed to fire at him. And we don't even know if that happened in this case. The officer was hit on the shin, but was not injured or anyhting ( at least the media didn't report any serious injury ). He was actually able to stand and fire his weapon, quite unusual if he had been "run over" by a car.
Now, I'll freely admit that I wasn't there to see it myself, and I am prepared to give the officers the benefit of the doubt, but to me, it seems the officers were obviously quite willing to kill all of the passengers to stop the car. I am sorry, but that just doesn't sound like quality police work to me.
And they violated their own police department's policy by firing on the car.