oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6778|Πάϊ

IRONCHEF wrote:

He said an undercover officer at the club had reported that the men were in a group that was involved in a dispute with another person outside the club.

The officer had reportedly called his colleagues saying he feared a gun would be produced.

As the men left the scene, a car they were driving struck an undercover officer on the shin.


It's clear there was probable cause to stop the men from leaving the club or shortly after they started their vehicle to run ids, explore their probable cause of a weapon possession.  But when they sped away, clipping an officer's shin, that's considered hit and run, at least, and ultimately (at the officer's discretion) attempted murder with a deadly weapon.  Then, hitting the two cars (regardless of who's they are) is further cause for immediate action.  Firing on the driver as a measured response would have been expected...50 rounds...questionable at best. 

Al Sharpton?  Must have been some black victims as that racist bitch wouldn't show up if it were white victims...
Wait a minute. There might have been a probable cause to stop the men from leaving the club, BUT that does not mean they had any right to start firing, especially since they were undercover (meaning the victims would have no way of knowing they were actually being stopped by police officers). They could have easily just called for backup, in which case the car would have been brought to a hault a few blocks away.

What is it with you people and guns lately? Its like they're the solution to everything. You're making Dirty Harry look like a pussy.

The fact that the 3 men were in a dispute is no reason to produce a gun.

The fact that the officer had reportedly called his colleagues saying he feared a gun would be produced is no reason to produce a gun.

The fact that the victims' car struck an undercover officer on the shin is no reason to produce a gun. Much less fire 50 rounds.
ƒ³
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California

oug wrote:

Wait a minute. There might have been a probable cause to stop the men from leaving the club, BUT that does not mean they had any right to start firing, especially since they were undercover (meaning the victims would have no way of knowing they were actually being stopped by police officers). They could have easily just called for backup, in which case the car would have been brought to a hault a few blocks away.

What is it with you people and guns lately? Its like they're the solution to everything. You're making Dirty Harry look like a pussy.

The fact that the 3 men were in a dispute is no reason to produce a gun.

The fact that the officer had reportedly called his colleagues saying he feared a gun would be produced is no reason to produce a gun.

The fact that the victims' car struck an undercover officer on the shin is no reason to produce a gun. Much less fire 50 rounds.
No mister, YOU wait a minute!!!  lol, jk.

If an undercover officer in the club had suspicion that a dispute might escalate into one where a weapon would be used, that's probable cause to pull them over at any time, uniformed or not.  The clipping of the officer's shin is a felony which gives further just cause to pull them over.  The police, unfortunately, don't have to qualify their suspicions and they are forced to assume that because of the precedent of being mentioned by the officer in the club and that they just hit a cop in the parking lot...they should definately have reacted.  I'm sorry they gunned down the occupants of the vehicle, but they had to stop.

It doesn't matter what the driver of that vehicle was thinking, what matters is the escalation of events that required the police to proceed the way they did.  Further...they hit two cars after speeding out of a parking lot of a nightclub.  That alone would denote operating under the influence and since they hit one car, THEN proceeded to hit another car...malice can be assumed requiring use of force.


Think for a minute that yes, things like this, and the thousands of daily crimes that occur do really happen and that they are commonplace.  Then think for minute that because it's not shocking, that something has to be done.  What would you have done as a police officer, putting your neck on the line daily to attempt to keep order.  Would you have simply waited for a ride in a patrol car to pull them over after the precedent actions?  I wouldn't have opened fire..but then I (and presumably the media or any readers of this forum) were not on location seeing any possibly threatening behavior coming from the cabin of that vehicle.  And that's the main judgement that will probably not be known, ever.
EVieira
Member
+105|6737|Lutenblaag, Molvania
It was cowardice. Shooting at unarmed people, inside a car. Dozens maybe hundreds of people entered and left that club, but they gunned down those guys. And if you think different, imagine if it was someone in your family just about to get married.

Cops need to be able to take the heat and stress of their job without shooting down innocents. They are armed, if they can't take it they should get another job.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6625|Columbus, Ohio
Why is it always about cops?  Is shooting the only way people die by mistake?  What about restaurants who kill people because of unsanitary cooking practices?  Where are the " Goddamn line cooks are at it again" threads?  What about all the cruise lines which are getting people sick, and killing some also.  Where are the " cruise ships at it again" threads?  You people have one track minds on here.  Iraq, Israel, and cops.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California

EVieira wrote:

It was cowardice. Shooting at unarmed people, inside a car. Dozens maybe hundreds of people entered and left that club, but they gunned down those guys. And if you think different, imagine if it was someone in your family just about to get married.
Yes, it would be great if it were that simple..then the cops could just be tortured, dragged, quartered and burnt, huh..  But it's not that simple..READ THE FRIGGEN PRESS ON THIS INCIDENT and you'll see that neither YOU or I have ANY right to judge because it's not known what went down.  I just read another article that suggested that those men tried to run down the undercover officer in the parking lot, then ran into the police van that had police men (regular people not dressed in uniforms)..that's pretty dangerous..surely they are at least suspicious people.  Then the officer they hit in the leg opened fire..but could it be that he announced himself to cover his ass, then proceeded to the vehicle as it rammed the minivan?

EVieira wrote:

Cops need to be able to take the heat and stress of their job without shooting down innocents. They are armed, if they can't take it they should get another job.
Go be a cop and tell us how easy it is to beat the heat and stress of their jobs.  Also, try to keep your marriage in tact, your prespective in order, and try to protect your fellow officers in the line of fire while you're at it.  And we're not talking about being a cop in Fargo..we're talking about Queens NY.

Yes, they already undergo stress management, evaluations from doctors, and are given training in evaluating situations.  Mayor Bloomberg believes in his cops and his chief of police...maybe he has reason?
Sorcerer0513
Member
+18|6800|Outer Space
If you think CNN is biased this won't really matter to you, but I did notice something in this article:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/nyc.sh … index.html

"However, Trini Wright, a dancer at the strip club where Bell's bachelor party was held, told the Daily News she was going to a diner with the men and was putting her makeup bag in the trunk of their car when the police minivan appeared.

"The minivan came around the corner and smashed into their car. And they (the police) jumped out shooting," Wright, 28, told the newspaper for Monday editions. "No 'stop.' No 'freeze.' No nothing.""

Real? Bogus? Liar?
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6625|Columbus, Ohio

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

If you think CNN is biased this won't really matter to you, but I did notice something in this article:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/nyc.sh … index.html

"However, Trini Wright, a dancer at the strip club where Bell's bachelor party was held, told the Daily News she was going to a diner with the men and was putting her makeup bag in the trunk of their car when the police minivan appeared.

"The minivan came around the corner and smashed into their car. And they (the police) jumped out shooting," Wright, 28, told the newspaper for Monday editions. "No 'stop.' No 'freeze.' No nothing.""

Real? Bogus? Liar?
I really hate to say this, but strippers are usually s drugged out that I rarely take what they say at face value.  I mean, look at that Duke rape case for example.

Oh, and I am sure she was going to "dinner."  Ya right.

Last edited by usmarine2007 (2006-11-27 11:35:05)

Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6921|USA

usmarine2007 wrote:

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

If you think CNN is biased this won't really matter to you, but I did notice something in this article:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/nyc.sh … index.html

"However, Trini Wright, a dancer at the strip club where Bell's bachelor party was held, told the Daily News she was going to a diner with the men and was putting her makeup bag in the trunk of their car when the police minivan appeared.

"The minivan came around the corner and smashed into their car. And they (the police) jumped out shooting," Wright, 28, told the newspaper for Monday editions. "No 'stop.' No 'freeze.' No nothing.""

Real? Bogus? Liar?
I really hate to say this, but strippers are usually s drugged out that I rarely take what they say at face value.  I mean, look at that Duke rape case for example.

Oh, and I am sure she was going to "dinner."  Ya right.
Strippers generalized by the right-wing. Back to why the cops shot unarmed civilians.

BTW that Duke case has turned out like the R.Kelly pee pee case huh?
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6625|Columbus, Ohio

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

If you think CNN is biased this won't really matter to you, but I did notice something in this article:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/nyc.sh … index.html

"However, Trini Wright, a dancer at the strip club where Bell's bachelor party was held, told the Daily News she was going to a diner with the men and was putting her makeup bag in the trunk of their car when the police minivan appeared.

"The minivan came around the corner and smashed into their car. And they (the police) jumped out shooting," Wright, 28, told the newspaper for Monday editions. "No 'stop.' No 'freeze.' No nothing.""

Real? Bogus? Liar?
I really hate to say this, but strippers are usually s drugged out that I rarely take what they say at face value.  I mean, look at that Duke rape case for example.

Oh, and I am sure she was going to "dinner."  Ya right.
Strippers generalized by the right-wing. Back to why the cops shot unarmed civilians.

BTW that Duke case has turned out like the R.Kelly pee pee case huh?
I am not generalizing strippers.  When I was in the Marines, I dated a shitload of strippers, and they were all on some sort of drug.....usually prescription abuse.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

If you think CNN is biased this won't really matter to you, but I did notice something in this article:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/nyc.sh … index.html

"However, Trini Wright, a dancer at the strip club where Bell's bachelor party was held, told the Daily News she was going to a diner with the men and was putting her makeup bag in the trunk of their car when the police minivan appeared.

"The minivan came around the corner and smashed into their car. And they (the police) jumped out shooting," Wright, 28, told the newspaper for Monday editions. "No 'stop.' No 'freeze.' No nothing.""

Real? Bogus? Liar?
The van came into the parking lot after the cop inside told about the men leaving and possibly having a weapon as learned from an argument in the parking lot.  The undercover officer followed them closely as they got in their car, he was then hit by their car..THEN the minivan came into the parking lot, emptied out (with cops probably pulling their guns), and they hit the minivan.

We don't know if those officers had "POLICE" labels on their backs (which legally identifies them regardless if their targets saw them) or if they yelled their required "POLICE OFFICER!" before firing. 

On a side note, maybe this is a good lesson for all shitbags like this guy that you DON'T go cheating on your soon to be wife by seeing a stripper!  I mean honestly, what fucked up cave man still has a bachelor party with strippers, drinking, and probably a lapt dance anymore?  Dumbass.

**No offense intended to cavemen.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-11-27 11:45:16)

Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6921|USA

IRONCHEF wrote:

On a side note, maybe this is a good lesson for all shitbags like this guy that you DON'T go cheating on your soon to be wife by seeing a stripper!  I mean honestly, what fucked up cave man still has a bachelor party with strippers, drinking, and probably a lapt dance anymore?  Dumbass.
Ummmm....every guy who is getting married?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_Party

Last edited by Mason4Assassin444 (2006-11-27 11:45:22)

ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6908

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

On a side note, maybe this is a good lesson for all shitbags like this guy that you DON'T go cheating on your soon to be wife by seeing a stripper!  I mean honestly, what fucked up cave man still has a bachelor party with strippers, drinking, and probably a lapt dance anymore?  Dumbass.
Ummmm....every guy who is getting married?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_Party
Dammit, beat me to it.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California
You guys are CAVE MEN!

**no offense to the cave friends**
EVieira
Member
+105|6737|Lutenblaag, Molvania

IRONCHEF wrote:

EVieira wrote:

It was cowardice. Shooting at unarmed people, inside a car. Dozens maybe hundreds of people entered and left that club, but they gunned down those guys. And if you think different, imagine if it was someone in your family just about to get married.
Yes, it would be great if it were that simple..then the cops could just be tortured, dragged, quartered and burnt, huh..  But it's not that simple..READ THE FRIGGEN PRESS ON THIS INCIDENT and you'll see that neither YOU or I have ANY right to judge because it's not known what went down.  I just read another article that suggested that those men tried to run down the undercover officer in the parking lot, then ran into the police van that had police men (regular people not dressed in uniforms)..that's pretty dangerous..surely they are at least suspicious people.  Then the officer they hit in the leg opened fire..but could it be that he announced himself to cover his ass, then proceeded to the vehicle as it rammed the minivan?
There is absolutely no reason to think they tried to run over a cop, wtf?? The guy was getting married, was comemorating. What the hell was he going to do in jail? Its much more likely the cops supposed they were drug dealers or whatever and used totally uncalled for force.

IRONCHEF wrote:

EVieira wrote:

Cops need to be able to take the heat and stress of their job without shooting down innocents. They are armed, if they can't take it they should get another job.
Go be a cop and tell us how easy it is to beat the heat and stress of their jobs.  Also, try to keep your marriage in tact, your prespective in order, and try to protect your fellow officers in the line of fire while you're at it.  And we're not talking about being a cop in Fargo..we're talking about Queens NY.

Yes, they already undergo stress management, evaluations from doctors, and are given training in evaluating situations.  Mayor Bloomberg believes in his cops and his chief of police...maybe he has reason?
Of course the Mayor stands by his chief of police. The chief will always stand by the cops, they always do. Its called corporativism. If a cop can't keep his marriage without bursting out and unloading a clip on a car, maybe he should get a  transfer to England where they aren't armed.

What happened was wrong and those officers should be reprimended and sent back to the academy or something. Put on trafic duty for a couple of years, I don't know. But the police will never admit that...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7030|PNW

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

On a side note, maybe this is a good lesson for all shitbags like this guy that you DON'T go cheating on your soon to be wife by seeing a stripper!  I mean honestly, what fucked up cave man still has a bachelor party with strippers, drinking, and probably a lapt dance anymore?  Dumbass.
Ummmm....every guy who is getting married?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_Party
Sorry, but not universally applicable.

Personally, I don't drink and I don't go to strip clubs now, and I find doing so while engaged to be a grievous breach of honesty. I would, however, have no problem with going to a bowling alley, playing a dozen games, blasting away at the arcade while waiting for my turn in pool, and finishing it off with an all-night LAN party.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California
No.  What happened ISN'T KNOWN YET...  Why must you continue to perpetuate the MSM derived witch hunt mentality that grips the majority of Americans??  lol

The guys in the car hit a human being.  The human was a cop and he then has a legal right to react with deadly force.  it's that simple.  What verbal exchanges were voiced IS UNKNOWN so it's foolish to suppose the MSM just got it right given their shitty record of nailing someone as a victim.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6908

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

On a side note, maybe this is a good lesson for all shitbags like this guy that you DON'T go cheating on your soon to be wife by seeing a stripper!  I mean honestly, what fucked up cave man still has a bachelor party with strippers, drinking, and probably a lapt dance anymore?  Dumbass.
Ummmm....every guy who is getting married?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_Party
Sorry, but not universally applicable.

Personally, I don't drink and I don't go to strip clubs now, and I find doing so while engaged to be a grievous breach of honesty. I would, however, have no problem with going to a bowling alley, playing a dozen games, blasting away at the arcade while waiting for my turn in pool, and finishing it off with an all-night LAN party.
Yes, we know, however it's what men are stereotypically supposed to do for their bachelor party. At least, it always should involve a lot of booze, and strippers. Do you people not watch TV or something?
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6921|USA

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

On a side note, maybe this is a good lesson for all shitbags like this guy that you DON'T go cheating on your soon to be wife by seeing a stripper!  I mean honestly, what fucked up cave man still has a bachelor party with strippers, drinking, and probably a lapt dance anymore?  Dumbass.
Ummmm....every guy who is getting married?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_Party
Sorry, but not universally applicable.

Personally, I don't drink and I don't go to strip clubs now, and I find doing so while engaged to be a grievous breach of honesty. I would, however, have no problem with going to a bowling alley, playing a dozen games, blasting away at the arcade while waiting for my turn in pool, and finishing it off with an all-night LAN party.
And some people go to strip clubs for thier bachelor party. But in this case IRONCHEF is blaming the victim for being where he was.

Kind of like a 4-year old was rape din the park.

"What was the 4-year old doing in the park?"

edit:

Not putting words in IRONCHEF's mouth. Its just how it sounded.

Last edited by Mason4Assassin444 (2006-11-27 11:54:45)

Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6921|USA

IRONCHEF wrote:

No.  What happened ISN'T KNOWN YET...  Why must you continue to perpetuate the MSM derived witch hunt mentality that grips the majority of Americans??  lol

The guys in the car hit a human being.  The human was a cop and he then has a legal right to react with deadly force.  it's that simple.  What verbal exchanges were voiced IS UNKNOWN so it's foolish to suppose the MSM just got it right given their shitty record of nailing someone as a victim.
50 bullets though dude.....c'mon.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California
Yes, we watch TV.  But in reality, I can't name a single friend or acquaintence that does those 80's type of things anymore.  Seriously, how screwed is your marriage if you went to a strip club or employed a stripper the night before your wedding?  The principle of "having one last night of fun before being in a ball and chain marriage" is archaic and is as hideous as that (and many others) fucked up show Married with Children.  No wonder people think of marriage as bad.

I think people who look down on marriage as as lame as those who think Bush is flawless.

But alass, I hijack, and I apologize...back to TOPIC. 
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6908

IRONCHEF wrote:

Yes, we watch TV.  But in reality, I can't name a single friend or acquaintence that does those 80's type of things anymore.  Seriously, how screwed is your marriage if you went to a strip club or employed a stripper the night before your wedding?  The principle of "having one last night of fun before being in a ball and chain marriage" is archaic and is as hideous as that (and many others) fucked up show Married with Children.  No wonder people think of marriage as bad.

I think people who look down on marriage as as lame as those who think Bush is flawless.

But alass, I hijack, and I apologize...back to TOPIC. 
Meh, I don't know, I can't say I'm too interested in marriage or strippers.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

No.  What happened ISN'T KNOWN YET...  Why must you continue to perpetuate the MSM derived witch hunt mentality that grips the majority of Americans??  lol

The guys in the car hit a human being.  The human was a cop and he then has a legal right to react with deadly force.  it's that simple.  What verbal exchanges were voiced IS UNKNOWN so it's foolish to suppose the MSM just got it right given their shitty record of nailing someone as a victim.
50 bullets though dude.....c'mon.
Well, I've not condoned the 50 bullets.  If you'll see my words above, I think that was not right.  A measured response for whatever happened would be appropriate.  But since I don't know what happened in that parking lot or whereve it happened, I can't judge fully.  But still 50 rounds from a bunch of cops who've never shot on the job before?  Sounds like a bunch of noobs raping an uncap when they should not have.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7030|PNW

ghettoperson wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Sorry, but not universally applicable.

Personally, I don't drink and I don't go to strip clubs now, and I find doing so while engaged to be a grievous breach of honesty. I would, however, have no problem with going to a bowling alley, playing a dozen games, blasting away at the arcade while waiting for my turn in pool, and finishing it off with an all-night LAN party.
Yes, we know, however it's what men are stereotypically supposed to do for their bachelor party. At least, it always should involve a lot of booze, and strippers. Do you people not watch TV or something?
Actually, I don't watch TV. I find too many of its programmes to be uninteresting or plain idiotic.

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Sorry, but not universally applicable.

Personally, I don't drink and I don't go to strip clubs now, and I find doing so while engaged to be a grievous breach of honesty. I would, however, have no problem with going to a bowling alley, playing a dozen games, blasting away at the arcade while waiting for my turn in pool, and finishing it off with an all-night LAN party.
And some people go to strip clubs for thier bachelor party. But in this case IRONCHEF is blaming the victim for being where he was.
I know what the argument was, but I still had to comment on the morality of engaged men getting lap dances from strippers.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-11-27 11:59:52)

commandochristian
Honda - The Power of Dreams
+293|6671|Michigan, USA

R3v4n wrote:

Do not fire, unless fired upon.

thats all i would like to add.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California

commandochristian wrote:

R3v4n wrote:

Do not fire, unless fired upon.

thats all i would like to add.
Vehicle with suspects in it HIT someone.  that's assault with a deadly weapon, and other applicable felonies.  In other words..they fired first.

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