She didn't even kill anybody. WTG, suicide bombing.
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Ok then... based on that reasoning, the American military are scum because by engaging terrorists in civilian areas they cause collateral damage by killing some civilians by accident, but ofcourse they know that will happen.lowing wrote:
I have been beating my head against the wall trying to convey that point. They know it, but if they admit it, it would totally wipe out all reasoning and statistics they have for hating Israel and calling them terrorists.Fancy_Pollux wrote:
Indiscriminately? They bomb Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be in civilian neighborhoods and structures. I don't think you understand the difference between collateral damage and intentionally blowing yourself up in a restaurant or bus filled with civilians.JahManRed wrote:
Israel Indiscriminately bombs civilian Areas with its donated military might.
The US military goes OUT OF ITS WAY, to make sure that it protects. . . to the best of its ability the loss of civilian life. To equate the terrorist tactics to ours, is not only incorrect, but shameful. Moreover, how the fuck can you say that???Vilham wrote:
Ok then... based on that reasoning, the American military are scum because by engaging terrorists in civilian areas they cause collateral damage by killing some civilians by accident, but ofcourse they know that will happen.lowing wrote:
I have been beating my head against the wall trying to convey that point. They know it, but if they admit it, it would totally wipe out all reasoning and statistics they have for hating Israel and calling them terrorists.Fancy_Pollux wrote:
Indiscriminately? They bomb Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be in civilian neighborhoods and structures. I don't think you understand the difference between collateral damage and intentionally blowing yourself up in a restaurant or bus filled with civilians.
I have friends that fought in this war as early as 8 months ago!! They NEVER targeted innocents. . . EVER! Do civilians get killed, or have been killed in their operations, sure . . . . When you are fighting in an urban setting, with people's homes all around, they are going to get killed. Bottom line, when a terrorist is shooting at you while he is hiding behind an 8 yr old boy, both of them generally are going to get smoked. Its not that we purposely target the little kid, he just is happening to be standing in front of an armed combatant.
Did we kill innocent civilians in WWII??? Sure, we fire fuck bombed the whole of Germany and Japan, on civilian cities to break the will of the countries. Funny how nobody seemed to mind then. . . . .But holly shit if we kill a few fucking Arabs by accident, everybody goes apeshit and calls us worse than the terrorists!! They call all go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned!
Our military isnt perfect, and they do make mistakes, but they are human! People who bomb a crowed pizza parlor full of families for the glory of Allah aren't. . . .
nice try but you are wrong, and I can't believe I am going to rationalize your post by tell you why, but I am I guess.Vilham wrote:
Ok then... based on that reasoning, the American military are scum because by engaging terrorists in civilian areas they cause collateral damage by killing some civilians by accident, but ofcourse they know that will happen.lowing wrote:
I have been beating my head against the wall trying to convey that point. They know it, but if they admit it, it would totally wipe out all reasoning and statistics they have for hating Israel and calling them terrorists.Fancy_Pollux wrote:
Indiscriminately? They bomb Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be in civilian neighborhoods and structures. I don't think you understand the difference between collateral damage and intentionally blowing yourself up in a restaurant or bus filled with civilians.
The US goes to great lengths financially, to develop and utilize weapons systems that "surgically" take out specific targets and try to avoid civilian causalities. EVEN if that were not the case. The US military does not go out of its way to destroy civilians.
NEITHER DOES ISRAEL! Damn some of you guys are so thick, its war! Civilians get hurt, that doesnt mean they are being targeted on purpose by Israel like you claimed. Ofcourse they know innocents will be hurt but so does every other military force in the world, you critise Israel for doing something the US army does aswell, GET REAL!lowing wrote:
nice try but you are wrong, and I can't believe I am going to rationalize your post by tell you why, but I am I guess.Vilham wrote:
Ok then... based on that reasoning, the American military are scum because by engaging terrorists in civilian areas they cause collateral damage by killing some civilians by accident, but ofcourse they know that will happen.lowing wrote:
I have been beating my head against the wall trying to convey that point. They know it, but if they admit it, it would totally wipe out all reasoning and statistics they have for hating Israel and calling them terrorists.
The US goes to great lengths financially, to develop and utilize weapons systems that "surgically" take out specific targets and try to avoid civilian causalities. EVEN if that were not the case. The US military does not go out of its way to destroy civilians.
Fadesteve you might actually want to read what was posted, I was supporting Fancy's view by showing lowing how ridiculus his idea that Israel are evil because they kill civilians by swapping Israel for another well know army, I forgot how pissed you Americans get so I probably should have used another country in its place. L2R..
I agree with Pollux but you have to admit that the collateral damage and civilian deaths ultimately results in greater support for Hamas and we see more recruits for Hamas such as the little old lady. For Israel bombing the shit out of targets in urban areas is currently working against Israel.Fancy_Pollux wrote:
Indiscriminately? They bomb Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be in civilian neighborhoods and structures. I don't think you understand the difference between collateral damage and intentionally blowing yourself up in a restaurant or bus filled with civilians.JahManRed wrote:
Israel Indiscriminately bombs civilian Areas with its donated military might.
What I am saying is that Israel needs new tactics, and so do most modern armies fighting in urban areas.
Last edited by mikeyb118 (2006-11-25 07:27:43)
Actually, you are the one that needs to re-read ALL THE POSTS and follow the chain. Then maybe you will be on the same page as the rest of us and see that you are arguing with the ones that you agree with.Vilham wrote:
NEITHER DOES ISRAEL! Damn some of you guys are so thick, its war! Civilians get hurt, that doesnt mean they are being targeted on purpose by Israel like you claimed. Ofcourse they know innocents will be hurt but so does every other military force in the world, you critise Israel for doing something the US army does aswell, GET REAL!lowing wrote:
nice try but you are wrong, and I can't believe I am going to rationalize your post by tell you why, but I am I guess.Vilham wrote:
Ok then... based on that reasoning, the American military are scum because by engaging terrorists in civilian areas they cause collateral damage by killing some civilians by accident, but ofcourse they know that will happen.
The US goes to great lengths financially, to develop and utilize weapons systems that "surgically" take out specific targets and try to avoid civilian causalities. EVEN if that were not the case. The US military does not go out of its way to destroy civilians.
Fadesteve you might actually want to read what was posted, I was supporting Fancy's view by showing lowing how ridiculus his idea that Israel are evil because they kill civilians by swapping Israel for another well know army, I forgot how pissed you Americans get so I probably should have used another country in its place. L2R..
I realise that you agreed with my but your post quoting Fancy's clearly contradicts that, you agree with him but then say America doesnt kill civilians thus making it out that your stateing Israel could do the same if they wanted to.lowing wrote:
Actually, you are the one that needs to re-read ALL THE POSTS and follow the chain. Then maybe you will be on the same page as the rest of us and see that you are arguing with the ones that you agree with.Vilham wrote:
NEITHER DOES ISRAEL! Damn some of you guys are so thick, its war! Civilians get hurt, that doesnt mean they are being targeted on purpose by Israel like you claimed. Ofcourse they know innocents will be hurt but so does every other military force in the world, you critise Israel for doing something the US army does aswell, GET REAL!lowing wrote:
nice try but you are wrong, and I can't believe I am going to rationalize your post by tell you why, but I am I guess.
The US goes to great lengths financially, to develop and utilize weapons systems that "surgically" take out specific targets and try to avoid civilian causalities. EVEN if that were not the case. The US military does not go out of its way to destroy civilians.
Fadesteve you might actually want to read what was posted, I was supporting Fancy's view by showing lowing how ridiculus his idea that Israel are evil because they kill civilians by swapping Israel for another well know army, I forgot how pissed you Americans get so I probably should have used another country in its place. L2R..
LOL, Jesus Christ..........I guess this falls under, " if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit"...........You have completely lost me, but whatever, moving onVilham wrote:
I realise that you agreed with my but your post quoting Fancy's clearly contradicts that, you agree with him but then say America doesnt kill civilians thus making it out that your stateing Israel could do the same if they wanted to.lowing wrote:
Actually, you are the one that needs to re-read ALL THE POSTS and follow the chain. Then maybe you will be on the same page as the rest of us and see that you are arguing with the ones that you agree with.Vilham wrote:
NEITHER DOES ISRAEL! Damn some of you guys are so thick, its war! Civilians get hurt, that doesnt mean they are being targeted on purpose by Israel like you claimed. Ofcourse they know innocents will be hurt but so does every other military force in the world, you critise Israel for doing something the US army does aswell, GET REAL!
Fadesteve you might actually want to read what was posted, I was supporting Fancy's view by showing lowing how ridiculus his idea that Israel are evil because they kill civilians by swapping Israel for another well know army, I forgot how pissed you Americans get so I probably should have used another country in its place. L2R..
Since you mentioned not understanding: This thread was about a suicide attack on [i]soldiers[i].Fancy_Pollux wrote:
Indiscriminately? They bomb Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be in civilian neighborhoods and structures. I don't think you understand the difference between collateral damage and intentionally blowing yourself up in a restaurant or bus filled with civilians.JahManRed wrote:
Israel Indiscriminately bombs civilian Areas with its donated military might.
Feel free to keep harping on about the good old days when you had the right to whine about your enemies tactics; however since Hamas has only carried out one suicide attack in 2 years and that was against a military target, don't be expect any respect from me for your nostaligia based rhetoric.
As I haven't seen any argument against the use of suicide tactics against military targets as put forward in #4, I'll assume you aren't interested in debating the actual information in the link from the OP.
Ya mean, there is actually another side to this story to debate, other than how fucked up this is? Ok, I am listening, sing the praises of this event.UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
Since you mentioned not understanding: This thread was about a suicide attack on [i]soldiers[i].Fancy_Pollux wrote:
Indiscriminately? They bomb Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be in civilian neighborhoods and structures. I don't think you understand the difference between collateral damage and intentionally blowing yourself up in a restaurant or bus filled with civilians.JahManRed wrote:
Israel Indiscriminately bombs civilian Areas with its donated military might.
Feel free to keep harping on about the good old days when you had the right to whine about your enemies tactics; however since Hamas has only carried out one suicide attack in 2 years and that was against a military target, don't be expect any respect from me for your nostaligia based rhetoric.
As I haven't seen any argument against the use of suicide tactics against military targets as put forward in #4, I'll assume you aren't interested in debating the actual information in the link from the OP.
Condemn them? Yes.ATG wrote:
Should we allow a group that does to exist?
Allow them to exist? What the fuck business is it of ours to get rid of them? Do they affect us in any way shape or form? No. Do Palestinians elect them to power? Yes. It's their choice.
That's like asking the converse: should we allow the zionist movement in Israel to exist? It's not our place to take military action against Israel. Nor is it our place to take military action against Palestine.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-25 10:03:56)
Then the Palestinians should reap what they sew. Pretty simple really. You want to be represented by terrorists, then expect tot be treated like you are on the side of terrorism.CameronPoe wrote:
Condemn them? Yes.ATG wrote:
Should we allow a group that does to exist?
Allow them to exist? What the fuck business is it of ours to get rid of them? Do they affect us in any way shape or form? No. Do Palestinians elect them to power? Yes. It's their choice.
That's like asking the converse: should we allow the zionist movement in Israel to exist?
You can condemn suicide bombing but if you could stop it you would not? That doesn't make sense. and it does affect us. The suicide mentality is what killed 3000+ people on 9/11 and YES it is all releted to this topic.CameronPoe wrote:
Condemn them? Yes.ATG wrote:
Should we allow a group that does to exist?
Allow them to exist? What the fuck business is it of ours to get rid of them? Do they affect us in any way shape or form? No. Do Palestinians elect them to power? Yes. It's their choice.
That's like asking the converse: should we allow the zionist movement in Israel to exist? It's not our place to take military action against Israel. Nor is it our place to take military action against Palestine.
So there is no distinction between a suicide attack on a military target and a civilian target as far as you are concerned?lowing wrote:
Ya mean, there is actually another side to this story to debate, other than how fucked up this is? Ok, I am listening, sing the praises of this event.UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
Since you mentioned not understanding: This thread was about a suicide attack on soldiers.Fancy_Pollux wrote:
Indiscriminately? They bomb Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be in civilian neighborhoods and structures. I don't think you understand the difference between collateral damage and intentionally blowing yourself up in a restaurant or bus filled with civilians.
Feel free to keep harping on about the good old days when you had the right to whine about your enemies tactics; however since Hamas has only carried out one suicide attack in 2 years and that was against a military target, don't be expect any respect from me for your nostaligia based rhetoric.
As I haven't seen any argument against the use of suicide tactics against military targets as put forward in #4, I'll assume you aren't interested in debating the actual information in the link from the OP.
If the tables were turned, don't try and pretend that there wouldn't be British, American or Israeli soldiers and civilians who would be willing to die for the greater good. The phenomenon is not unique and is not new. If you don't concede that point, you are essentially saying that the Western troops are more cowardly than their fanatic opponents, just like this left wing website implies: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/oct20 … -o18.shtml
After all, when cornered many 'civilised' nations have resorted to large scale suicide tactics when faced with the fear of the unknown that defeat presents. The Battle of the Somme would have been quite a different matter if it wasn't. It greatly depends on position, resource and manpower as to whether it is an efficient tactic to sacrifice human life for a chance of victory. Just because America has spent alot of money trying to eliminate the risk to soldiers, doesn't mean that it's enemies have the resources or motivation (it's a side effect of democracy that any casualties will lead to a a change in public opinion) to do so.
The distinction is, it could just have easily been a market full of Israelis, she would have done the same thing. It just so happened to be a military. I can not believe, if she was told to go blow up a synagogue that she would have refused........THAT is the issue.UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
So there is no distinction between a suicide attack on a military target and a civilian target as far as you are concerned?lowing wrote:
Ya mean, there is actually another side to this story to debate, other than how fucked up this is? Ok, I am listening, sing the praises of this event.UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
Since you mentioned not understanding: This thread was about a suicide attack on soldiers.
Feel free to keep harping on about the good old days when you had the right to whine about your enemies tactics; however since Hamas has only carried out one suicide attack in 2 years and that was against a military target, don't be expect any respect from me for your nostaligia based rhetoric.
As I haven't seen any argument against the use of suicide tactics against military targets as put forward in #4, I'll assume you aren't interested in debating the actual information in the link from the OP.
If the tables were turned, don't try and pretend that there wouldn't be British, American or Israeli soldiers and civilians who would be willing to die for the greater good. The phenomenon is not unique and is not new. If you don't concede that point, you are essentially saying that the Western troops are more cowardly than their fanatic opponents, just like this left wing website implies: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/oct20 … -o18.shtml
After all, when cornered many 'civilised' nations have resorted to large scale suicide tactics when faced with the fear of the unknown that defeat presents. The Battle of the Somme would have been quite a different matter if it wasn't. It greatly depends on position, resource and manpower as to whether it is an efficient tactic to sacrifice human life for a chance of victory. Just because America has spent alot of money trying to eliminate the risk to soldiers, doesn't mean that it's enemies have the resources or motivation (it's a side effect of democracy that any casualties will lead to a a change in public opinion) to do so.
When you fire into civilian areas you know that you are going to kill civilians. So its premeditated. Thats not collateral damage. Just because you tag it with a fancy name doesn't make it OK. Its their fault that rocket launchers are moved into their area?Fancy_Pollux wrote:
Indiscriminately? They bomb Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be in civilian neighborhoods and structures. I don't think you understand the difference between collateral damage and intentionally blowing yourself up in a restaurant or bus filled with civilians.JahManRed wrote:
Israel Indiscriminately bombs civilian Areas with its donated military might.
How much you wanna bet an Israeli soldier wouldn't hesitate to drop a bomb on a mosque?lowing wrote:
The distinction is, it could just have easily been a market full of Israelis, she would have done the same thing. It just so happened to be a military. I can not believe, if she was told to go blow up a synagogue that she would have refused........THAT is the issue.
If a fighter pilot was ordered to bomb a mosque, he wouldn't?lowing wrote:
The distinction is, it could just have easily been a market full of Israelis, she would have done the same thing. It just so happened to be a military. I can not believe, if she was told to go blow up a synagogue that she would have refused........THAT is the issue.
edit: shoulda refreshed
Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-11-25 11:30:54)
UnOriginalNuttah I half agree with you and half agree with lowing tbh, this topic just doesn't work like how you both state though, each case is different.
Ill also point out the Somme wasnt a "suicide attack" the deaths at the Somme were caused by thoughtless generals looking at numbers and trying to fight a 19th century war in the 20th century against a Europian foe rather than some tribes men.
Ill also point out the Somme wasnt a "suicide attack" the deaths at the Somme were caused by thoughtless generals looking at numbers and trying to fight a 19th century war in the 20th century against a Europian foe rather than some tribes men.
And the current suicide tactics the result of people trying to fight a 20th century war of resistance against a 21st century foe.Vilham wrote:
UnOriginalNuttah I half agree with you and half agree with lowing tbh, this topic just doesn't work like how you both state though, each case is different.
Ill also point out the Somme wasnt a "suicide attack" the deaths at the Somme were caused by thoughtless generals looking at numbers and trying to fight a 19th century war in the 20th century against a Europian foe rather than some tribes men.
He would hesitate...jonsimon wrote:
How much you wanna bet an Israeli soldier wouldn't hesitate to drop a bomb on a mosque?lowing wrote:
The distinction is, it could just have easily been a market full of Israelis, she would have done the same thing. It just so happened to be a military. I can not believe, if she was told to go blow up a synagogue that she would have refused........THAT is the issue.
so his buddy could take a picture of him doing it...
Palestinians love to kill Israelis, civilians or military.
Israelis love to kill Arabs, civilians or military.
2 things, a US fighter pilot would not be ordered to bomb a mosque full of civilians just for goal of bombing civilians.UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
If a fighter pilot was ordered to bomb a mosque, he wouldn't?lowing wrote:
The distinction is, it could just have easily been a market full of Israelis, she would have done the same thing. It just so happened to be a military. I can not believe, if she was told to go blow up a synagogue that she would have refused........THAT is the issue.
edit: shoulda refreshed
next, A US fighter pilot probably would ignore an order to bomb a mosque full of known civilians where the mission was to kill civilians. Then fly directly to CNN and file a report.
HOw many times has it happened that Isralis dropped a bomb on a Mosque with the sole intent of killing all the civilians insides, where attacks were not launched from it?jonsimon wrote:
How much you wanna bet an Israeli soldier wouldn't hesitate to drop a bomb on a mosque?lowing wrote:
The distinction is, it could just have easily been a market full of Israelis, she would have done the same thing. It just so happened to be a military. I can not believe, if she was told to go blow up a synagogue that she would have refused........THAT is the issue.
Very true.lowing wrote:
HOw many times has it happened that Isralis dropped a bomb on a Mosque with the sole intent of killing all the civilians insides, where attacks were not launched from it?jonsimon wrote:
How much you wanna bet an Israeli soldier wouldn't hesitate to drop a bomb on a mosque?lowing wrote:
The distinction is, it could just have easily been a market full of Israelis, she would have done the same thing. It just so happened to be a military. I can not believe, if she was told to go blow up a synagogue that she would have refused........THAT is the issue.
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