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Poll

So, Has It All Been Worth It?

Yes29%29% - 30
No70%70% - 71
Total: 101
2008-04-03 15:00:29
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6730|67.222.138.85

Braddock wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

If you're going to do something, commit to it. Honestly, I don't really see why, logically, we needed to go into Iraq or Afghanistan. The fact however is the American people were bloodthirsty after 9/11 and something had to be done, so we went to war. Now if we're put in a war, even if it's one we don't want to or shouldn't be in, you have to commit. You half-ass it, and you get the kind of situation we are in presently or like we were in Vietnam. If you aren't willing to go the whole way with it, it probably wasn't a good enough reason to start a war for in the first place.
The Russians aren't known for following the rulebook in war and they ended up leaving the Middle East with their tale between their legs, I just think parts of the Middle East can't be won over with just a tough mentality and heavy handedness. They are a tough and determined people; whatever about Iraq the Afghani's have never really been successfully conquered and they've had all manner of invaders over the years.

On the other issues I don't actually think our two points of view are that far away from each other, though your take on things is a little different from mine. I may be wrong but you seem somewhat content with the fact that your Government has embarked on tactics that you have yourself admitted were unrealistic i.e. the total destruction of extremist preaching and terrorist recruiting via conventional warfare on a sovereign state with little or no link to the terrorist groups in question?
Yeah, I don't think we're that far off.

I am content with the actions of my Government, because what other choice was there? The most reasonable choice in my opinion would have been the one that the people would not have stood for, and that is a problem in a government of the people and by the people.

I believe as corrupt as every single one of the fuckers are, they are ultimately inadvertently following the only reasonable path to take by following the will of the American people. My only major fault I find with them is how they pretty blatantly ignored the military leaders in how to follow through to make the war seem like less of a big deal to the people, and caused more American blood to be spilled in the process than necessary.

Unrealistic goals, but it's better to reach for those than flounder. It's a shame we're doing a lot more floundering than reaching now though.

Bertster7 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

There was no other choice, barring invading a different ME country after Afghanistan.
Utter nonsense.

A real show of strength would've been getting the job done properly in Afghanistan.
That was my point, we should have tried for a decisive victory there in the first place. Once we didn't, however, my statement above stands.

Read the rest of my posts.
2008-04-03 15:00:59
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6434|'Murka

B.Schuss wrote:

FEOS wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


The tragedy lies in the fact that $500bn of American debt comes at the hands of this debacle. If your government had been prepared to borrow for better reasons it may not necessarily be a tragedy.
Would you think it justified for YOUR country to borrow that amount...for anything?

Yes, the expenditure of resources is a tragedy, but there are far larger tragedies at play here.
such as what ? America being invaded by Al'Quaeda ? America's national security ? The integrity of its borders ?
I was talking about the lives lost.

B.Schuss wrote:

I am with this guy:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Deception plan, no deception plan, WMD no WMD, AQ link, no AQ link if Saddam had hinted he had a secret army of Smurfs it would have been used as a pretext for invasion.
After 9/11 someone was going to get a beating and unfortunately Afghan mountains just don't explode well enough to make good TV, plus it had been in the pipeline since 1991.
No comment.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-04-03 15:30:50
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6313|Éire

Dilbert_X wrote:

Deception plan, no deception plan, WMD no WMD, AQ link, no AQ link if Saddam had hinted he had a secret army of Smurfs it would have been used as a pretext for invasion.
After 9/11 someone was going to get a beating and unfortunately Afghan mountains just don't explode well enough to make good TV, plus it had been in the pipeline since 1991.
That my friend is a war crime. You can't invade a random nation because you're annoyed at being attacked by terrorists.
2008-04-03 16:02:20
Ghandi767
Member
+17|6645|Hanging in the Balance
The original invasion? No. Coukd've been just as easily done with a TLAM or JSOW once we found him.

But doesnt mean you can just leave now.
2008-04-03 18:13:08
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6434|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Deception plan, no deception plan, WMD no WMD, AQ link, no AQ link if Saddam had hinted he had a secret army of Smurfs it would have been used as a pretext for invasion.
After 9/11 someone was going to get a beating and unfortunately Afghan mountains just don't explode well enough to make good TV, plus it had been in the pipeline since 1991.
That my friend is a war crime. You can't invade a random nation because you're annoyed at being attacked by terrorists.
If it were truly the case, yes it would be. But since it's just Dilbert's opinion on an internet forum...not so much.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-04-04 05:38:07
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6129|eXtreme to the maX
If it were truly the case, yes it would be. But since it's just Dilbert's opinion on an internet forum...not so much.
You think so?
Explain to us all then how Iraq was invaded in retaliation for a terrorist attack by a group of Saudis?

And its not just me.

World opinion of the US is not too great right now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7324337.stm
You guys are about level with North Korea and Russia.
https://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44530000/gif/_44530223_count_views_226gr.gif
Interesting Iran and Israel are pegging level.

Since you've set the precedent and BF2S polls can be used in evidence.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 7#p1651087
40% of BF2S (who expressed an opinion) reckoned it was about oil (and therefore illegal). 15% went for WMD.

The majority of Americans reckon Bush lied to them.
"Do you think the Bush Administration deliberately misled the American public about whether Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, or not?"
2/21-24/08
Did  Mislead Did Not Mislead Unsure   
%                          %              %
53                         42               5
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

"If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace. Because what America is saying is that if you are afraid of a veto in the Security Council, you can go outside and take action and violate the sovereignty of other countries. That is the message they are sending to the world. That must be condemned in the strongest terms." – Nelson Mandela (September 10, 2002)

In an interview with the BBC Kofi Annan said, "[The U.S.-led invasion of Iraq] was not in conformity with the Security Council." When the interviewer responded by asking "It was illegal?" Kofi Annan replied "Yes, if you wish." 16 September 2004

I guess Cheney was right, pity he didn't take any mitigating action.
"Once you got to Iraq and took it over, took down Saddam Hussein's government, then what are you going to put in its place? That's a very volatile part of the world, and if you take down the central government of Iraq, you could very easily end up seeing pieces of Iraq fly off: part of it, the Syrians would like to have to the west, part of it -- eastern Iraq -- the Iranians would like to claim, they fought over it for eight years. In the north you've got the Kurds, and if the Kurds spin loose and join with the Kurds in Turkey, then you threaten the territorial integrity of Turkey. It's a quagmire if you go that far and try to take over Iraq." – Former United States Secretary of Defense, Dick Cheney (April 15, 1994)

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-04-04 05:42:02)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2008-04-04 05:47:40
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6313|Éire
^^^^^

Hey Americans, does that not seriously piss you off that over 50% of Israeli's have a 'mainly negative' view of the US? You give those ungrateful cunts billions in aid and they throw it back in your face!
2008-04-04 05:50:15
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6129|eXtreme to the maX
You misread the graph.
Its a worldwide poll on whether people think a specific country has positive or negative influence in the world.
So Germany is generally perceived as being a positive influence, Iran not so much.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2008-04-04 05:58:36
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6313|Éire

Dilbert_X wrote:

You misread the graph.
Its a worldwide poll on whether people think a specific country has positive or negative influence in the world.
So Germany is generally perceived as being a positive influence, Iran not so much.
Slaps forehead/
2008-04-04 06:13:25
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6864|Cologne, Germany

FEOS wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Would you think it justified for YOUR country to borrow that amount...for anything?

Yes, the expenditure of resources is a tragedy, but there are far larger tragedies at play here.
such as what ? America being invaded by Al'Quaeda ? America's national security ? The integrity of its borders ?
I was talking about the lives lost.
I agree, loss of life on such a scale is always a tragedy, but if it's the loss of life that bothers you, I suggest not to invade ME shitholes for phoney reasons. No offense, just saying...
2008-04-04 06:21:43
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6864|Cologne, Germany

"Once you got to Iraq and took it over, took down Saddam Hussein's government, then what are you going to put in its place? That's a very volatile part of the world, and if you take down the central government of Iraq, you could very easily end up seeing pieces of Iraq fly off: part of it, the Syrians would like to have to the west, part of it -- eastern Iraq -- the Iranians would like to claim, they fought over it for eight years. In the north you've got the Kurds, and if the Kurds spin loose and join with the Kurds in Turkey, then you threaten the territorial integrity of Turkey. It's a quagmire if you go that far and try to take over Iraq." – Former United States Secretary of Defense, Dick Cheney (April 15, 1994)

wow. That's gold....
2008-04-04 06:37:51
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6313|Éire

B.Schuss wrote:

"Once you got to Iraq and took it over, took down Saddam Hussein's government, then what are you going to put in its place? That's a very volatile part of the world, and if you take down the central government of Iraq, you could very easily end up seeing pieces of Iraq fly off: part of it, the Syrians would like to have to the west, part of it -- eastern Iraq -- the Iranians would like to claim, they fought over it for eight years. In the north you've got the Kurds, and if the Kurds spin loose and join with the Kurds in Turkey, then you threaten the territorial integrity of Turkey. It's a quagmire if you go that far and try to take over Iraq." – Former United States Secretary of Defense, Dick Cheney (April 15, 1994)

wow. That's gold....
That Dick Cheney is a smart guy, he knows what's actually going on in that part of the world. They should have put him in charge of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
2008-04-04 07:29:19
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6129|eXtreme to the maX
Dick Cheney
'Let us rid ourselves of the fiction that low oil prices are somehow good for the United States. '

'The good Lord didn't see fit to put oil and gas only where there are democratically elected regimes friendly to the United States. Occasionally we have to operate in places where, all things considered, one would not normally choose to go. But, we go where the business is. '

'I think that the proposition of going to Baghdad is also fallacious. I think if we we're going to remove Saddam Hussein we would have had to go all the way to Baghdad, we would have to commit a lot of force because I do not believe he would wait in the Presidential Palace for us to arrive. I think we'd have had to hunt him down. And once we'd done that and we'd gotten rid of Saddam Hussein and his government, then we'd have had to put another government in its place. What kind of government? Should it be a Sunni government or Shi'i government or a Kurdish government or Ba'athist regime? Or maybe we want to bring in some of the Islamic fundamentalists? How long would we have had to stay in Baghdad to keep that government in place? What would happen to the government once U.S. forces withdrew? How many casualties should the United States accept in that effort to try to create clarity and stability in a situation that is inherently unstable? I think it is vitally important for a President to know when to use military force. I think it is also very important for him to know when not to commit U.S. military force. And it's my view that the President got it right both times, that it would have been a mistake for us to get bogged down in the quagmire inside Iraq. ' 1991

'[In response to "Do you think the American people are prepared for a long, costly, and bloody battle with significant American casualties?"] "Well, I don’t think it’s likely to unfold that way, Tim, because I really do believe that we will be greeted as liberators. I’ve talked with a lot of Iraqis in the last several months myself, had them to the White House....The read we get on the people of Iraq is there is no question but what they want to get rid of Saddam Hussein and they will welcome as liberators the United States when we come to do that." '
2003

'What we did in Iraq was exactly the right thing to do. If I had it to recommend all over again, I would recommend exactly the same course of action.'
Vice Presidential Debate October 5, 2004

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-04-04 07:33:58)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2008-04-04 09:35:21
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6666

Braddock wrote:

^^^^^

Hey Americans, does that not seriously piss you off that over 50% of Israeli's have a 'mainly negative' view of the US? You give those ungrateful cunts billions in aid and they throw it back in your face!
no.  I dont care about israel.


Braddock, I think you would find that most of the countries that we give large amounts of foreign and military aid to, most of their citizens have a dim view of the United States regardless.  I think that says more about the nation biting the hand that feeds it than the nation that feeds.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2008-04-04 09:38:39)

2008-04-04 10:58:06
rdx-fx
...
+955|6614
Was it worth it ... in a historical sense, to the USA?  Too early to tell.  Ink's not dry on the history books yet.

Was it worth it ... to the Soldiers that fought over there? Depends on which one you ask.  Some come back with wounds that will never heal (mental or physical).  Some come back with an appreciation for the embarrassment of riches and freedoms the average western citizen takes for granted.  Some don't come back.

Was it worth it ... for the average forum-posting civilian? Other than providing infinite hours of fodder for high-emotion/low-reason forum postings, it's most likely had ZERO impact on their day-to-day lives.  Dash off a quick witticism about "Chimpy McFlightsuit" then go about their day-to-day lives...


My 2 cents: It'll only be worth it if the Iraqi people rent a set of balls somewhere, and take ownership of their country's future.
2008-04-04 11:25:40
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6514|Northern California

rdx-fx wrote:

... for the average forum-posting civilian? Other than providing infinite hours of fodder for high-emotion/low-reason forum postings, it's most likely had ZERO impact on their day-to-day lives.  Dash off a quick witticism about "Chimpy McFlightsuit" then go about their day-to-day lives...
Ahem!  ..we prefer "keyboard commandos," not "average forum-posting civilian."  Geeez mon.
2008-04-04 13:05:36
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6434|'Murka

B.Schuss wrote:

FEOS wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:


such as what ? America being invaded by Al'Quaeda ? America's national security ? The integrity of its borders ?
I was talking about the lives lost.
I agree, loss of life on such a scale is always a tragedy, but if it's the loss of life that bothers you, I suggest not to invade ME shitholes for phoney reasons. No offense, just saying...
I'll keep that in mind the next time I think about invading a ME shithole.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-04-04 13:08:06
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6434|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

If it were truly the case, yes it would be. But since it's just Dilbert's opinion on an internet forum...not so much.
You think so?
Explain to us all then how Iraq was invaded in retaliation for a terrorist attack by a group of Saudis?
Easily. It wasn't.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-04-05 06:22:41
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6206|Ireland
I have spent the last 3 years of my life fighting the MEC and I have seen what these heartless bastards are capable of.  One time I watched a Medic get his throat cut while he was trying to save one of their soldiers with a defibulator.  These Godless bastards will do anything, load jeeps with C4 and use them as guided bombs, kill unarmed medics, bunny hop, and even steal our own tanks and vehicles. 

Is it worth it you ask, I say yes because one day freedom will prevail in Karkland!
2008-04-05 07:22:19
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6313|Éire

rdx-fx wrote:

Was it worth it ... in a historical sense, to the USA?  Too early to tell.  Ink's not dry on the history books yet.

Was it worth it ... to the Soldiers that fought over there? Depends on which one you ask.  Some come back with wounds that will never heal (mental or physical).  Some come back with an appreciation for the embarrassment of riches and freedoms the average western citizen takes for granted.  Some don't come back.

Was it worth it ... for the average forum-posting civilian? Other than providing infinite hours of fodder for high-emotion/low-reason forum postings, it's most likely had ZERO impact on their day-to-day lives.  Dash off a quick witticism about "Chimpy McFlightsuit" then go about their day-to-day lives...


My 2 cents: It'll only be worth it if the Iraqi people rent a set of balls somewhere, and take ownership of their country's future.
My personal view is that the war has proven to be a devastating disaster for this generation of Iraqi's at least. Thousands upon thousands have been killed, even more have been maimed and injured, hundreds of families have been shattered and the country that was a home to many has been ruined or rendered uninhabitable due to the ethnic tensions that have sprung out of the chaotic aftermath. As you have said what happens with the country down the road remains to be seen but at the moment what little can be claimed as a positive outcome is, in my opinion, far outweighed by the huge prices that have had to be paid.
2008-04-05 07:42:37
r'Eeee
That's how I roll, BITCH!
+311|6471

Hey guys, I am not really good at writing essays, and I have this youtube video, which probably some up everything. IDK, if you guys feel the same, but, everytime I see it, it makes me very sad.

Last edited by r'Eeee (2008-04-05 07:44:07)

 

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