BF2S Forums How'd you feel if they built a Mosque in your neighborhood?

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

Luke 19.27 was a parable, or story being told by Jesus, he was not speaking of himself. It is still undeniable........the facts of the 2 men and their teachings speak for themselves. I can not defend "Christians" who take the words and teaching of Jesus and do not follow them, and I can not defend the Muslims who take the words and teachings of Muhammad and follow them.

Bottom line, it is a fact that Islam is its own worse enemy. Their intolerant actions, laws and words, speak for themselves. I am not claiming Islam is violent and intolerant. Islam is SHOWING it is violent and intolerant, and as such I do not like it.

We must assume you read the Qu'ran several times in order to be such an expert on the violence and intolerance within Islam.

Do you really need to be an expert to form an opinion on Islam? Even Muslims are claiming it "violent and historically conflicted" this, according to the cleric an author that was baptized by the Pope. I guess he is no expert either huh, Serge? Apparently only an expert would agree with you. But I am closed minded huh?

I'm not an expert on Islam, I never read the entire Qu'ran, just a few parts, but I can't condemn 1.5 billion people for the actions of a few nutjobs.

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

We must assume you read the Qu'ran several times in order to be such an expert on the violence and intolerance within Islam.

Do you really need to be an expert to form an opinion on Islam? Even Muslims are claiming it "violent and historically conflicted" this, according to the cleric an author that was baptized by the Pope. I guess he is no expert either huh, Serge? Apparently only an expert would agree with you. But I am closed minded huh?

I'm not an expert on Islam, I never read the entire Qu'ran, just a few parts, but I can't condemn 1.5 billion people for the actions of a few nutjobs.

Neither do I. The religion these people follow however, I can condemn as violent and intolerant, and does not blend into western society

lowing wrote:

Crusades? yeah ok.......You mean back in the 12th century right?.

I believe that e.g. Jews actually fled to Morish El Andalus during that period, because they were safer in Islamic than they were in Christian  territory. Islamic governments were also less prone to burn their own subjects if they diverted slightly from the common held belief and Christians were allowed to build their own churches is Islamic towns, as long as the bell tower didn't rose higher than the minaret of the local mosk.

It was pretty much a change of roles and what it shows is that the religion in itself is not at fault. Especially because it is over 400 years ago, it shows it's not a matter of "backwardness" either.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I'm sorry, when did the conversation turn toward criminal behavior and away from violent and intolerant ( lets not forget INTOLERANT) teachings of Islam?

I am not comparing felons to religion Cam, unless of course the crime was comitted in the name of God or Allah.

You are trying to be clever with your wording but it has not gone un-noticed that you are only using the word violent in your responses and you are not including INTOLERANCE of this religion. Does that make your argument a little to inconvienent to pose?

And the "big deal" is, I do not want that intolerance and the bullshit PC that goes along with trying to avoid it here.

You said Islam was inherently violent. As such, homicide rates in Islamic nations should be markedly higher than in western nations. The fact of the matter is they aren't. So even if the half of all of those homicides committed in Islamic nations were 'Islam-related' it still wouldn't be a figure worth talking about. Your argument is irrelevant. You're talking about small amounts of people committing small numbers of crimes. You're arguments pretty much show you up to be have what I originally said: an irrational fear/obsession/hatred of muslims.

I'm not arguing about tolerance. They have a different culture from our own. Women are treated like possessions in Hinduism just as they are in Islam, just as they were in Christianity and just as they were in Judaism. Religion evolves over time.

Excellent points.

wouldn't a inherently violent religion breed violence and therefore crimes/murder?

lowing your arguement has more holes in it than the US's iraq plan....
you keep saying that islam is so violent.... give me evidence... dont keep saying "compare their teachers etc etc" give me actual facts/evidence.
because comparing teachings of religions prophets still doesnt cut it... as i have said many times religions change over time and evolve... if you have read the bible you will realise christianity was very violent.... and their holy book in certain areas still preaches horrible things that are against the social norms of our society... many of the countries islam is majority in, differ so much in their CULTURE (not to be confused with religion) that it is very hard to compare how islam would work in the west... thats why muslims living in europe/america.. although a minority provide a very good view of the religions itself and its intergration into western society and how we operate.

Last edited by Little BaBy JESUS (2008-03-31 01:20:35)

FEOS wrote:

Actually, a lower homicide rate does not necessarily equate to a less violent culture/religion. It only equates a lower homicide rate.

Public removal of hands, floggings, and other niceties don't result in the death of someone (ie, homicide), but they are certainly violent.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here...just pointing out a flaw in logic.

I personally think that it's a fairly good indicator. I felt no threat from anyone in Jordan, Morocco or Turkey and only felt a sensible level of threat in Palestine (on the off-chance that I was mistaken for an Israeli). As it happens the Palestinians were very welcoming and eager to talk. The punishments handed out for crimes hark back to the fact that the entire world is not on the same developmental step. Whereas in the EU the death penalty is outlawed and in the US the judicial system kills with an injection, some Islamic nations sanction death by more archaic methods.

King_County_Downy wrote:

Nothing beats a good old fashioned stoning

if u mean marijuana than yes

CameronPoe wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Actually, a lower homicide rate does not necessarily equate to a less violent culture/religion. It only equates a lower homicide rate.

Public removal of hands, floggings, and other niceties don't result in the death of someone (ie, homicide), but they are certainly violent.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here...just pointing out a flaw in logic.

I personally think that it's a fairly good indicator.

Correlation =/= Causation

Then use that as the basis for your argument.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I'm sorry, when did the conversation turn toward criminal behavior and away from violent and intolerant ( lets not forget INTOLERANT) teachings of Islam?

I am not comparing felons to religion Cam, unless of course the crime was comitted in the name of God or Allah.

You are trying to be clever with your wording but it has not gone un-noticed that you are only using the word violent in your responses and you are not including INTOLERANCE of this religion. Does that make your argument a little to inconvienent to pose?

And the "big deal" is, I do not want that intolerance and the bullshit PC that goes along with trying to avoid it here.

You said Islam was inherently violent. As such, homicide rates in Islamic nations should be markedly higher than in western nations. The fact of the matter is they aren't. So even if the half of all of those homicides committed in Islamic nations were 'Islam-related' it still wouldn't be a figure worth talking about. Your argument is irrelevant. You're talking about small amounts of people committing small numbers of crimes. You're arguments pretty much show you up to have what I originally said: an irrational fear/obsession/hatred of muslims.

I'm not arguing about tolerance. They have a different culture from our own. Women are treated like possessions in Hinduism just as they are in Islam, just as they were in Christianity and just as they were in Judaism. Religion evolves over time. Unless you're a gay Saudi I'll have to take it that you, again, have an irrational fear/obsession/hatred of muslims.

I am not comparing bank robberies to LEGALLY stoning a woman for looking at another man, and I won't let you make that comparision withou it being pointed out. I am talking about the violence Islam TEACHES as well as practices in the name of Allah.

So we agree Islam is an intolerant religion. Even on that point alone, it does not fit well into a FREE and tolerant western  society.

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I'm sorry, when did the conversation turn toward criminal behavior and away from violent and intolerant ( lets not forget INTOLERANT) teachings of Islam?

I am not comparing felons to religion Cam, unless of course the crime was comitted in the name of God or Allah.

You are trying to be clever with your wording but it has not gone un-noticed that you are only using the word violent in your responses and you are not including INTOLERANCE of this religion. Does that make your argument a little to inconvienent to pose?

And the "big deal" is, I do not want that intolerance and the bullshit PC that goes along with trying to avoid it here.

You said Islam was inherently violent. As such, homicide rates in Islamic nations should be markedly higher than in western nations. The fact of the matter is they aren't. So even if the half of all of those homicides committed in Islamic nations were 'Islam-related' it still wouldn't be a figure worth talking about. Your argument is irrelevant. You're talking about small amounts of people committing small numbers of crimes. You're arguments pretty much show you up to be have what I originally said: an irrational fear/obsession/hatred of muslims.

I'm not arguing about tolerance. They have a different culture from our own. Women are treated like possessions in Hinduism just as they are in Islam, just as they were in Christianity and just as they were in Judaism. Religion evolves over time.

Excellent points.

wouldn't a inherently violent religion breed violence and therefore crimes/murder?

lowing your arguement has more holes in it than the US's iraq plan....
you keep saying that islam is so violent.... give me evidence... dont keep saying "compare their teachers etc etc" give me actual facts/evidence.
because comparing teachings of religions prophets still doesnt cut it... as i have said many times religions change over time and evolve... if you have read the bible you will realise christianity was very violent.... and their holy book in certain areas still preaches horrible things that are against the social norms of our society... many of the countries islam is majority in, differ so much in their CULTURE (not to be confused with religion) that it is very hard to compare how islam would work in the west... thats why muslims living in europe/america.. although a minority provide a very good view of the religions itself and its intergration into western society and how we operate.

When I speak of Islam I speak of the whole package, culture, as well as religion. Npe I will not let you use Europe and the US as indicators as to how Islam really is. You and others throughout this forum have done nothing but down play Islam immigration significance and impact on these 2 continants so there is no way in hell I am gunna let you point to them now as your shining example as to Islamic behavior without an argument. That would be generalizing wouldn't it?

lowing wrote:

No I don't, I think it has not changed enough to fit into the modern world. We are moving forward and we do not need an anchor like Islam slowing down that momentum like it has in the ME.

It's none of your business how fast or slow Islam evolves. That is the business of Muslims and Muslims alone. Perhaps the Islamic world wants to a follow an entirely different path from the rest of us, and so be it: that is their prerogative. Those that live in the west have to fit in with our cultural norms but other than that no Muslim needs to do jackshit for anyone.

lowing wrote:

When you talk about UAE and Kuwait and such, all of that money is from oil drilled by forign countries  those countries did nothing to develope the refining process or access to the oil, the leaders sat bck andcollected money, with out oil that other western contries developed, ALL of the ME countries would be left in the stone age and you can thank Islam for that.

If they want to sit on that oil and not give it to anyone else then that is also their prerogative. You should be thankful they allowed the companies in to develop the fields in the first place.

lowing wrote:

I do not know how many coutries it happens in. I do wonder how many countries it is ALLOWED to happen in however.

Well it has no legal basis in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Kyrgyztan, Kosovo, Albania, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Turkey, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Chad, Mali, Burkina Faso, Gambia, Guinea, Senegal, UAE, Kuwait, Libya, Malaysia, Qatar, Maldives, Bangladesh...

Basically I think lowing has a problem with other people not bending to the will of the west. Well frankly I want to live in a pluralistic world where individual peoples determine their own path and that their path is not forced by those countries with the most weapons and money just because they sit on a valuable natural resource or just because they are rightly annoyed with the creation of a particular state on their turf.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-03-31 05:21:53)

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

I'm not an expert on Islam, I never read the entire Qu'ran, just a few parts, but I can't condemn 1.5 billion people for the actions of a few nutjobs.

Neither do I. The religion these people follow however, I can condemn as violent and intolerant, and does not blend into western society

Again, how can you condemn their whole Religion without reading the Qu'ran or knowing anything at all about Islam?  You just know that some assholes like to blow shit up.

I must agree with Iowing that I don't think reading the Qu'ran is essential to understanding Islamic culture. You're trying to have a blind man visualize how a sunflower looks by having him eat one of it's seeds.