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2008-03-07 05:05:08
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6139|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

I double checked my posts again and I still can not find where I said anyones civil rights were violated.
I was being dramatic, and you know it.

lowing wrote:

There are other facilities that offer womens only gyms. The one in question is a universal gym, that Muslims want exclusive access to during certain hours. I do not agree. If this is the case then go find a Muslims only gym, or start one up.
This isn't about them making "Muslim only" hours.  The article said that some women (who happen to be muslim, but that is immaterial to this debate) asked to make one of many gym facilities have two hours of women-only exercise.  I see no problem, as there are multiple alternatives for the displaced people.  Sure, it might be an inconvenience, but why not better serve their paying customers?  Afterall, students do pay for a membership.

If this were the only gym on campus, but since it is only one of many, I fail to see the problem.

Would you have this same problem if the school decided to repurpose the gym and make it women only all the time?
2008-03-07 05:09:32
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6751|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

lowing wrote:

IG-Calibre wrote:

lowing wrote:


So we agree, it is accomadating a religious group. I knew we would.

They have a right to use the gym WHENEVER they want, and everyone else can have their times posted. Special interest
No Lowing they can't us it "whenever" they want, because their religious sensibilities dictate otherwise, this is what you fail to grasp.  However they do not want the Gym to be Muslim exclusive as you state incorrectly (and have still yet to acknowledge), they just want to be able to exercise, in a campus gym,  along with women of all denominations not just Muslim.  Only your to ignorant and bigoted to see that.. Now i'm done, i'll leave you to rave on in here on your own about the end of civilisation as we know it, have fun!
What you fail to understand is that they are ALLOWED to use the gym whenever they feel like it. IF they CHOOSE not to is a decision they alone will make. EVERYONE else will only be able to use the gym during posted hours.

YOu already agreed this is an accomadation of a special interest group Muslim females, why are you backing out on that?
I'm not backing out of anything Lowing. I merely pointed out that they are not demanding a Muslim only Gym as you stated incorrectly, which is just your usual bullshit scaremongering islamophobia drivel.  I'll state it again for your benifit, they are not allowed to use the gym  whenever they want, it's not about their "Choosing" only an ignorant cretin would think that it was tbh.. Now I really am finished toodles..
2008-03-07 05:11:23
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

I double checked my posts again and I still can not find where I said anyones civil rights were violated.
I was being dramatic, and you know it.

lowing wrote:

There are other facilities that offer womens only gyms. The one in question is a universal gym, that Muslims want exclusive access to during certain hours. I do not agree. If this is the case then go find a Muslims only gym, or start one up.
This isn't about them making "Muslim only" hours.  The article said that some women (who happen to be muslim, but that is immaterial to this debate) asked to make one of many gym facilities have two hours of women-only exercise.  I see no problem, as there are multiple alternatives for the displaced people.  Sure, it might be an inconvenience, but why not better serve their paying customers?  Afterall, students do pay for a membership.

If this were the only gym on campus, but since it is only one of many, I fail to see the problem.

Would you have this same problem if the school decided to repurpose the gym and make it women only all the time?
It wasn't women who asked for this it was MUSLIM women who asked for it and they did it for religious reasons. If it were a womens only issue, there are already plenty of womens only gyms around. There is no need to inconvenience others for your religious beliefs.

There are also multiple alternative for those that want to have exclusive use for this universal gym.

No if this were women from all diverse backgrounds asking for a womens only gym on campus I would not have a problem with it. As it is this is not the case. This is Muslim women asking for special treatment.
2008-03-07 05:14:36
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

IG-Calibre wrote:

lowing wrote:

IG-Calibre wrote:


No Lowing they can't us it "whenever" they want, because their religious sensibilities dictate otherwise, this is what you fail to grasp.  However they do not want the Gym to be Muslim exclusive as you state incorrectly (and have still yet to acknowledge), they just want to be able to exercise, in a campus gym,  along with women of all denominations not just Muslim.  Only your to ignorant and bigoted to see that.. Now i'm done, i'll leave you to rave on in here on your own about the end of civilisation as we know it, have fun!
What you fail to understand is that they are ALLOWED to use the gym whenever they feel like it. IF they CHOOSE not to is a decision they alone will make. EVERYONE else will only be able to use the gym during posted hours.

YOu already agreed this is an accomadation of a special interest group Muslim females, why are you backing out on that?
I'm not backing out of anything Lowing. I merely pointed out that they are not demanding a Muslim only Gym as you stated incorrectly, which is just your usual bullshit scaremongering islamophobia drivel.  I'll state it again for your benifit, they are not allowed to use the gym  whenever they want, it's not about their "Choosing" only an ignorant cretin would think that it was tbh.. Now I really am finished toodles..
For this to be true then Muslim women would NOT be allowed to enter the gym during certain hours because the gym has posted a rule stating it. I seriously doubt that if a Muslim woman wanted to go to the gym during NOT "womens only" time, they would be turned away.

The reverse however, would not be true.
2008-03-07 05:17:15
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6850|Cologne, Germany

lowing wrote:

IG-Calibre wrote:

lowing wrote:


I double checked my posts again and I still can not find where I said anyones civil rights were violated.

There are other facilities that offer womens only gyms. The one in question is a universal gym, that Muslims want exclusive access to during certain hours. I do not agree. If this is the case then go find a Muslims only gym, or start one up.
Lowing you could start a row in an empty room.. Firstly, saying " Muslims want exclusive access to during certain hours" is incorrect, I suggest you actually read the article before posting rubbish comments on it. The Gym is open to all women, not just Muslims at these times.. Secondly if we are to live together with different religions / cultures, then we are going to have to be courteous to these traditions / religions and reach a compromise that enables us to live together with out offending each others sensibilities,  it's called  "accommodation". Though in your crazy mind you see it as appeasement....probably...

ha ha man you really are gas..
I have already explained, there are ALREADY womens only gyms. GO to one of them. This gym is unisex. The reasons for the special treatment is not sex based it is religious based. WOMEN did not ask for this..MUSLIM women did.
well, lowing, these women are Harvard students. Maybe they want to workout at Harvard gyms ?
And not pay extra at Curves ?

Harvard simply adressed their students' needs. If there is no explicit Harvard policy stating that all gyms must be co-ed, I wouldn't know why they shouldn't allow one gym to have womens-only hours for 6 hours per week. Especially when two thirds of those hours are from 8-10 a.m. on weekdays. I mean, who want to work out during those hours anyway ?

I think you're making more out of this than there is to it.
2008-03-07 05:19:25
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6139|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

It wasn't women who asked for this it was MUSLIM women who asked for it and they did it for religious reasons. If it were a womens only issue, there are already plenty of womens only gyms around. There is no need to inconvenience others for your religious beliefs.

There are also multiple alternative for those that want to have exclusive use for this universal gym.

No if this were women from all diverse backgrounds asking for a womens only gym on campus I would not have a problem with it. As it is this is not the case. This is Muslim women asking for special treatment.
There you have it.  You don't like that muslim women would ask for a concession.  The article doesn't say anything about there being a women's only gym on campus because they have a membership to use the gyms on campus.  Why should the college force paying students and faculty to go off campus and use a private gym that costs more?  That is more of an inconvenience than these women hours will ever cause.

But the fact remains:  They merely happen to be muslim.  There are MANY women who don't like to work out with men around, and so some of them happen to be muslim.

This is what the article says happened:

Several muslim students approach the Women's Center to inquire about women only gym hours.
Women's center may have thought 'Gee, that's a great idea!', and pushed to get it.
They get 2 hours of women only time on ONE facility.

It DOES NOT MATTER that the it was muslim women who originally asked about it.  They may not have been the first to request that.  The article does not say.
2008-03-07 05:20:42
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

B.Schuss wrote:

lowing wrote:

IG-Calibre wrote:


Lowing you could start a row in an empty room.. Firstly, saying " Muslims want exclusive access to during certain hours" is incorrect, I suggest you actually read the article before posting rubbish comments on it. The Gym is open to all women, not just Muslims at these times.. Secondly if we are to live together with different religions / cultures, then we are going to have to be courteous to these traditions / religions and reach a compromise that enables us to live together with out offending each others sensibilities,  it's called  "accommodation". Though in your crazy mind you see it as appeasement....probably...

ha ha man you really are gas..
I have already explained, there are ALREADY womens only gyms. GO to one of them. This gym is unisex. The reasons for the special treatment is not sex based it is religious based. WOMEN did not ask for this..MUSLIM women did.
well, lowing, these women are Harvard students. Maybe they want to workout at Harvard gyms ?
And not pay extra at Curves ?

Harvard simply adressed their students' needs. If there is no explicit Harvard policy stating that all gyms must be co-ed, I wouldn't know why they shouldn't allow one gym to have womens-only hours for 6 hours per week. Especially when two thirds of those hours are from 8-10 a.m. on weekdays. I mean, who want to work out during those hours anyway ?

I think you're making more out of this than there is to it.
Actually I don't give a shit. I am arguing principality, not the report itself. I could use this argument for any special interest group seeking special favor.

Harvard is not addressing students needs, they are addressing religious specific students needs. Big difference.
2008-03-07 05:21:23
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6818|Nårvei

Being a woman is not a religion lowing
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2008-03-07 05:22:21
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6139|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

Actually I don't give a shit. I am arguing principality, not the report itself. I could use this argument for any special interest group seeking special favor.

Harvard is not addressing students needs, they are addressing religious specific students needs. Big difference.
Maybe, just maybe, these students happen to have specific needs that the college wants to take care of?  Muslim or not, they are paying students.
2008-03-07 05:24:23
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

It wasn't women who asked for this it was MUSLIM women who asked for it and they did it for religious reasons. If it were a womens only issue, there are already plenty of womens only gyms around. There is no need to inconvenience others for your religious beliefs.

There are also multiple alternative for those that want to have exclusive use for this universal gym.

No if this were women from all diverse backgrounds asking for a womens only gym on campus I would not have a problem with it. As it is this is not the case. This is Muslim women asking for special treatment.
There you have it.  You don't like that muslim women would ask for a concession.  The article doesn't say anything about there being a women's only gym on campus because they have a membership to use the gyms on campus.  Why should the college force paying students and faculty to go off campus and use a private gym that costs more?  That is more of an inconvenience than these women hours will ever cause.

But the fact remains:  They merely happen to be muslim.  There are MANY women who don't like to work out with men around, and so some of them happen to be muslim.

This is what the article says happened:

Several muslim students approach the Women's Center to inquire about women only gym hours.
Women's center may have thought 'Gee, that's a great idea!', and pushed to get it.
They get 2 hours of women only time on ONE facility.

It DOES NOT MATTER that the it was muslim women who originally asked about it.  They may not have been the first to request that.  The article does not say.
I make no bones about it, I do not like that Muslim women are asking for concessions, I do not like it when gays ask for concessions, I do not like it when white people ask for concessions, I do not like it when black people ask for concessions.

Ya see where I am headed with this??


Basically, I hate everyone equally
2008-03-07 05:24:30
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6751|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

lowing wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

I double checked my posts again and I still can not find where I said anyones civil rights were violated.
I was being dramatic, and you know it.

lowing wrote:

There are other facilities that offer womens only gyms. The one in question is a universal gym, that Muslims want exclusive access to during certain hours. I do not agree. If this is the case then go find a Muslims only gym, or start one up.
This isn't about them making "Muslim only" hours.  The article said that some women (who happen to be muslim, but that is immaterial to this debate) asked to make one of many gym facilities have two hours of women-only exercise.  I see no problem, as there are multiple alternatives for the displaced people.  Sure, it might be an inconvenience, but why not better serve their paying customers?  Afterall, students do pay for a membership.

If this were the only gym on campus, but since it is only one of many, I fail to see the problem.

Would you have this same problem if the school decided to repurpose the gym and make it women only all the time?
It wasn't women who asked for this it was MUSLIM women who asked for it and they did it for religious reasons. If it were a womens only issue, there are already plenty of womens only gyms around. There is no need to inconvenience others for your religious beliefs.

There are also multiple alternative for those that want to have exclusive use for this universal gym.

No if this were women from all diverse backgrounds asking for a womens only gym on campus I would not have a problem with it. As it is this is not the case. This is Muslim women asking for special treatment.
Lowing that drivel is noting short of Religious persecution mate, something I believe Americans are supposed to be protected aginst by the constitution? , rather than winning any argument you're just making yourself look a right wab tbh..

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2008-03-07 05:26:17)

2008-03-07 05:25:49
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

Actually I don't give a shit. I am arguing principality, not the report itself. I could use this argument for any special interest group seeking special favor.

Harvard is not addressing students needs, they are addressing religious specific students needs. Big difference.
Maybe, just maybe, these students happen to have specific needs that the college wants to take care of?  Muslim or not, they are paying students.
So is the person who is NOT ALLOWED to work out during (Muslim) "womens only" hours.
2008-03-07 05:27:25
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6139|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

I make no bones about it, I do not like that Muslim women are asking for concessions, I do not like it when gays ask for concessions, I do not like it when white people ask for concessions, I do not like it when black people ask for concessions.

Ya see where I am headed with this??


Basically, I hate everyone equally
I see.  I blame Harvard for making the concession of providing such a large quantity of athletic facilities for student use.
2008-03-07 05:29:35
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

IG-Calibre wrote:

lowing wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

I double checked my posts again and I still can not find where I said anyones civil rights were violated.
I was being dramatic, and you know it.

This isn't about them making "Muslim only" hours.  The article said that some women (who happen to be muslim, but that is immaterial to this debate) asked to make one of many gym facilities have two hours of women-only exercise.  I see no problem, as there are multiple alternatives for the displaced people.  Sure, it might be an inconvenience, but why not better serve their paying customers?  Afterall, students do pay for a membership.

If this were the only gym on campus, but since it is only one of many, I fail to see the problem.

Would you have this same problem if the school decided to repurpose the gym and make it women only all the time?
It wasn't women who asked for this it was MUSLIM women who asked for it and they did it for religious reasons. If it were a womens only issue, there are already plenty of womens only gyms around. There is no need to inconvenience others for your religious beliefs.

There are also multiple alternative for those that want to have exclusive use for this universal gym.

No if this were women from all diverse backgrounds asking for a womens only gym on campus I would not have a problem with it. As it is this is not the case. This is Muslim women asking for special treatment.
Lowing that drivel is noting short of Religious persecution mate, something I believe Americans are supposed to be protected aginst by the constitution? , rather than winning any argument you're just making yourself look a right wab tbh..
There is no argument to win, I do not believe in concessions to special intersts groups of any kind. I continuously say that this is not a Islamic specific issue for me. If gay white men wanted exclusive use of a gym for a certain time period you would get the same responses from me.
2008-03-07 05:29:35
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6139|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

Actually I don't give a shit. I am arguing principality, not the report itself. I could use this argument for any special interest group seeking special favor.

Harvard is not addressing students needs, they are addressing religious specific students needs. Big difference.
Maybe, just maybe, these students happen to have specific needs that the college wants to take care of?  Muslim or not, they are paying students.
So is the person who is NOT ALLOWED to work out during (Muslim) "womens only" hours.
1.  This is NOT Muslim only, which you clearly implied.
2.  Everyone can still work out during these hours, just not at this one gym.

These are two very crucial points that you are missing.  No one is being denied the ability to work out.  There is no 'principle of the thing' here.
2008-03-07 05:29:48
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6818|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

Actually I don't give a shit. I am arguing principality, not the report itself. I could use this argument for any special interest group seeking special favor.

Harvard is not addressing students needs, they are addressing religious specific students needs. Big difference.
Maybe, just maybe, these students happen to have specific needs that the college wants to take care of?  Muslim or not, they are paying students.
So is the person who is NOT ALLOWED to work out during (Muslim) "womens only" hours.
How many hours where womens only and vise versa ? ... and when was the hours located ?

Check that and report back who got the bad end of the stick ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2008-03-07 05:32:12
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6139|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

There is no argument to win, I do not believe in concessions to special intersts groups of any kind. I continuously say that this is not a Islamic specific issue for me. If gay white men wanted exclusive use of a gym for a certain time period you would get the same responses from me.
Lowing, this is not 'Brown Muslim Women Only' hours.  These are 'Women Only' hours.  Your comparison fails here.

If these 'white gay men' pushed for men only hours, I wouldn't care.  This is not as specific as you make it seem.
2008-03-07 05:37:08
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6850|Cologne, Germany

lowing wrote:

...There is no need to inconvenience others for your religious beliefs...
what ? tell that to the guy ringing those damn churchbells early sunday morning, at a time when I would like to sleep.

Or the city council who allows various religious fractions to hold an unimaginable amount of religious processions and other festivities during the year, that make it impossible to get anywhere around town.

Of course this is inconvenient. But we respect other people's beliefs and religions, don't we ?

Seriously, lowing, just look at the time slots the students have been given. 4 of those 6 hours are on weekdays, 8 to 10 a.m.
I mean, who works out during those times anyway ?
From my point of view, The university has tried to avoid inconveniencing the other students as much as possible and still adress the needs of the female muslim students.
2008-03-07 05:44:40
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

B.Schuss wrote:

lowing wrote:

...There is no need to inconvenience others for your religious beliefs...
what ? tell that to the guy ringing those damn church bells early Sunday morning, at a time when I would like to sleep.

Or the city council who allows various religious fractions to hold an unimaginable amount of religious processions and other festivities during the year, that make it impossible to get anywhere around town.

Of course this is inconvenient. But we respect other people's beliefs and religions, don't we ?

Seriously, lowing, just look at the time slots the students have been given. 4 of those 6 hours are on weekdays, 8 to 10 a.m.
I mean, who works out during those times anyway ?
From my point of view, The university has tried to avoid inconveniencing the other students as much as possible and still adress the needs of the female muslim students.
In that context you have a small point. However I would argue that those churches ringing those bells have been there ringing away every Sunday long before any of the inhabitants around them moved in. Kinda like don't bitch about the noise at the airport when you moved next to it.
2008-03-07 05:46:29
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

There is no argument to win, I do not believe in concessions to special intersts groups of any kind. I continuously say that this is not a Islamic specific issue for me. If gay white men wanted exclusive use of a gym for a certain time period you would get the same responses from me.
Lowing, this is not 'Brown Muslim Women Only' hours.  These are 'Women Only' hours.  Your comparison fails here.

If these 'white gay men' pushed for men only hours, I wouldn't care.  This is not as specific as you make it seem.
This was MUSLIM women asking for concessions based on religious beliefs, can't get much more specific than that.
2008-03-07 05:54:01
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6139|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

This was MUSLIM women asking for concessions based on religious beliefs, can't get much more specific than that.
So what?  My point was that these are not Muslim-only hours.  They are Women-only hours.

That is a big difference.  I guess you missed that.
2008-03-07 05:54:59
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6454|The Land of Scott Walker

SenorToenails wrote:

They are Women-only hours.
That no other women asked for ...
2008-03-07 05:56:44
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

Stingray24 wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

They are Women-only hours.
That no other women asked for ...
what stingray said
2008-03-07 05:57:46
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6139|North Tonawanda, NY

Stingray24 wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

They are Women-only hours.
That no other women asked for ...
How do you know that?  The article does not say, it simply says that it was done after these Muslim women asked for it.

I would bet that other women had made such requests in the past or that there are women (non muslim women, no less) who are happy that there are women only hours now.
2008-03-07 06:02:10
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6454|The Land of Scott Walker

SenorToenails wrote:

... it simply says that it was done after these Muslim women asked for it.
Which is why there is debate.  It's a unisex gym and perhaps other women did ask for women only hours previously.  But now since Muslim women asked everyone trips over themselves to comply with their demands.

The Harvard faculty member directly said in the article this policy was done for religious reasons.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2008-03-07 06:04:00)

 

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