BF2S Forums Why I Now Support the Patriot Act

Turquoise wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Let me ask this then.  How do you propose to solve this?  Staying in Iraq isn't really doing much other sucking away funds.

solve what?  the patriot act? staying in iraq? fighting terrorism world wide?  perception of islam?

tighten up your shot group, killer.

You tell me what staying in Iraq is solving then.

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

solve what?  the patriot act? staying in iraq? fighting terrorism world wide?  perception of islam?

tighten up your shot group, killer.

You tell me what staying in Iraq is solving then.

since when were talking about Iraq?

see what the fuck I mean.  You have to do this on purpose.  No way you could be so irritating by accident.

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Yes, if we go into Mecca, it's like declaring war on all of Islam.

no no no

thats not what I meant.   The only reason I brought up mecca was because you said wahhabis were insignificant and thats when I pointed out that they control the most revered places in islam and that you are ethnocentric for calling that insignificant.  The words are right there.  You keep jumping to conclusions.  Made no mention of Americans in mecca.  cant you see where my frustration is coming from?  damn it!

RAIMIUS wrote:

Have you researched what the Patriot Act allows?
From the ACLU: http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/patriot%20act%20flyer.pdf
Patriot II: http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/17 … 30320.html
The electronic side: http://w2.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/ … alysis.php

H.R. 3162 "Patriot Act" wrote:

(a) FINDINGS- Congress makes the following findings:
(1) Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia play a vital role in our Nation and are entitled to nothing less than the full rights of every American.
(2) The acts of violence that have been taken against Arab and Muslim Americans since the September 11, 2001, attacks against the United States should be and are condemned by all Americans who value freedom.
(3) The concept of individual responsibility for wrongdoing is sacrosanct in American society, and applies equally to all religious, racial, and ethnic groups.
(4) When American citizens commit acts of violence against those who are, or are perceived to be, of Arab or Muslim descent, they should be punished to the full extent of the law.
(5) Muslim Americans have become so fearful of harassment that many Muslim women are changing the way they dress to avoid becoming targets.
(6) Many Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have acted heroically during the attacks on the United States, including Mohammed Salman Hamdani, a 23-year-old New Yorker of Pakistani descent, who is believed to have gone to the World Trade Center to offer rescue assistance and is now missing.
(b) SENSE OF CONGRESS- It is the sense of Congress that--
(1) the civil rights and civil liberties of all Americans, including Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia, must be protected, and that every effort must be taken to preserve their safety;
(2) any acts of violence or discrimination against any Americans be condemned; and
(3) the Nation is called upon to recognize the patriotism of fellow citizens from all ethnic, racial, and religious backgrounds.

Double standards???

Turquise, you are not only arguing for diminished civil rights and expanded government power without oversight, but for discriminating based on race, ethnicity, and religion.  Do you remember that little thing called the Constitution?  Apparently, the Bill of Rights and the civil war amendments no longer apply in your version of the country!  I find your thinking to be inherently dangerous to our continued liberties and the prinicples on which the United States was founded on.  This is dangerous!

Ben Franklin was right.

sergeriver wrote:

Shouldn't the Patriot Act include the US ally Saudi Arabia?  And how can you support a law that violates a lot of your civil liberties?

sergeriver wrote:

FEOS wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

There must be a way to deal with that problem without taking civil liberties away.

Exactly what civil liberties of law-abiding American citizens have been "taken away"?

Additionally, the Patriot Act isn't country-specific when it comes to terrorists, so your comment about including Saudi Arabia is moot. If a terrorist is from Saudi Arabia, they are no different under the law than a terrorist from Iran or Germany or Botswana.

My comment is relevant coz you can't support this law and a country that violates Human Rights like Saudi Arabia at the same time.  Double standards.

Turquoise wrote:

The thing about Saudi Arabia is that Wahhabism is most dominant in that country.  We must crush Wahhabism until it ceases to exist.  Islam isn't the enemy -- Wahhabism is.

Amnesty International is concerned that the USA PATRIOT Act:
Creates a broad definition of "domestic terrorism" that may have a chilling effect on the U.S. and international rights to free expression and association.
The law defines "domestic terrorism" as acts committed in the United States "dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws," if the U.S. government determines that they "appear to be intended" to "influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion," or "to intimidate or coerce a civilian population." Such ambiguous language allows for loose interpretation that might violate civil liberties and international human rights.
Allows non-citizens to be detained without charge and held indefinitely once charged.
This is permissible if the U.S. government certifies that there are "reasonable grounds" to believe a person's action threatens national security. This runs counter to U.S. and international rights to due process and could also lead to violations of rights in the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, which guarantee that governments be notified if their nationals are detained.
Infringes on the right to privacy and removes many types of judicial review over intelligence activities.
The USA PATRIOT Act permits the government to scrutinize peoples' reading habits by monitoring public library and bookstore records, without notifying the suspect. It also allows for "sneak and peak" tactics such as physical search of property and computers, wiretapping and monitoring of email, and access to financial and educational records, without providing notification. These activities contradict the right to be free from arbitrary interference with individuals' privacy, as protected in the U.S. Constitution and the ICCPR.
In response to these measures, Amnesty International recommends that:
Individuals urge the U.S. Congress to pass reforms to safeguard individual human rights, such as the End Racial Profiling Act, and revoke aspects of the USA PATRIOT Act that are in breach of the rights protected in the U.S. Constitution and international human rights law.
Individuals urge the U.S. Congress to enforce all Sunset provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act and oppose efforts to extend or eliminate them. (Note: A Sunset provision provides that a certain part of the law is automatically repealed on a certain date, unless the Congress reenacts it).
Individuals urge Congress to pass the SAFE Act and expand and enforce use of Sunset provisions to other problematic sections of the USA PATRIOT Act.
Individuals urge the U.S. Congress to block new legislative initiatives, such as the proposed CLEAR Act and VICTORY Act, which would further curtail rights of U.S. citizens and non-citizens.
Individuals should initiate and support community efforts to uphold civil and human rights as defined in the U.S. Constitution and international law.

FEOS wrote:

Serge, all that does is speak to potential, not actual cases where it has occurred. Other than the one case TS mentioned, can you find a case where a US citizen's rights were infringed upon?

RAIMIUS wrote:

That's one of the main problems--lack of public oversight.  As much as government employees hate people looking over their shoulders, it is a neccessary thing.

Being on a DoD network, I get a nice little "Consent to monitor" screen before I login.  I'm guessing most people don't, yet many activities are monitored "for the good of the whole."