FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6382|'Murka

Wow. The hypocrisy is rampant.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6622|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

as paranoid
as generalizing
a racist
ignorant
a hate monger
a bigot

and of course last but certainly not least...................................a nazi.........

stingray, catbox, david p. fededsteve, scootch over let the man sit........ welcome to the club
Explain exactly how you are not generalising...

Explain exactly how you are not bigoted... (don't make me dredge up your quotes)
I am not generalizing.............everything I said is a fact.

1. Islamic terrorism is just that Islamic terrorism

2. Islam as it is taught in the Koran does not mesh with the values and morals we have esptablished in the west.

3. Islam as taught in the Koran is a violent and intolerant religion.

4. The greater the Islamic immigration into a country they greater the risk of radicalism in that country.

Everything I have said is a fact  or a real concern. A lack of PC does a bigot make.

As far as the generalizing accusations...........I am specific about all I have said regarding this issue.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6622|USA

JahManRed wrote:

lowing wrote:

yup......Cam and his groupies have said all is well.....................sooooooooo you are hereby labeled:

as paranoid
as generalizing
a racist
ignorant
a hate monger
a bigot

and of course last but certainly not least...................................a nazi.........

stingray, catbox, david p. fededsteve, scootch over let the man sit........ welcome to the club
Lowing, I am no ones groupie............I have my own opinions. You are complaining about labeling, while you throw labels around yourself. Practice what you preach. And for the record I am no lover of the UK, they occupy my country and I come from a long line of nationalists who have been very active against the occupation.

When the kind of Phobia which is being perpetuated towards the Muslim people was aimed at my people 30 years ago by the British, the number of Irish 'terrorists' multiplied and turned a ragtag, unorganised, dying organisation into the worlds most efficient terrorist organisation ever. I see these same mistakes being repeated and I have genuine concerns about this direction.

You people are on the outside looking in. Comment on UK foreign policies and going on in the wider world were we are all observing on a level playing field. We level headed individuals make up our own opinion about our own country, we refuse to take what the right or left wing media says as gospel, never mind people who have probably never set foot on UK soil.

Your just frustrated that we refuse to be put in the typical Democrat/Republican molds that you guys all seam to have to fit into.
You must have a guilty conscience.........I didn't call you a groupie. lol


There is no "phobia" regarding Muslims.......a phobia is a fear of something.........I do not fear Islam...........I do not want it entrenched in our society because it does not blend well with our values and morals.

Why is it the UK domestic policy is a taboo subject unless you are from there, yet I can read AT LENGTH, about what all of you Ero-weenies feel about US gun laws and shit??
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6622|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

This is a general statement:

To everyone outside of GB:

You may read Fox, MSNBC, Sky etc, and think there is a radical muslim problem.

Real life however, is more accurate than the aforementioned news (lol) services.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho … 80522.html


How 'bout UK news?.,.......................yeah, there is no problems in England regarding Islam.
No one said that.

No problems in England with regards to Sharia courts, which that article is not related to. There are issues of religious based violence towards women amongst numerous religious communities in the UK, Sikhs and Hindus cause about as many problems on that front as Muslims though. It's not an "Islam Problem", it's an immigrant problem which has been demonstrated to recede from generation to generation. The problem is the continued rate of immigration from vastly differing cultures, something which the EU is placing more and more, much needed, stringent restrictions on. The more recent immigrants are typically the problem - their children become Anglicised sufficiently for this not to be a long term issue if immigration gets sorted out.
No one said that?/!!........yer kiddin' right?? I have been called and accused of everything from being paranoid to being a Nazi in regards to Islamic issues in Europe.

Please do not try and tell me that I have NOT been told that Islam  in Europe is a NON-ISSUE and that all of this is just media hype and generalizing.
BVC
Member
+325|6666
If they use those "courts" as a mechanism to resolve civil issues then theres not really a lot that can be done about it.  Criminal are a different matter entirely, IF they come to the attention of the British legal system.

Wasn't there a survey taken within a year or so of now, which found out that 1 in 5 UK muslims wanted sharia law in the UK?  Immigration isn't generally allowed with the understanding that the immigrants will try and erode/restrict the freedoms that their receiving nation gives to all of it's citizens.  A sizeable chunk of UK muslims want sharia...given present-day examples of countries with sharia law and in particular the UK "honour" killings, I think that a negative reaction to the suggestion of sharia courts in the UK is justified.

When in rome, do as the romans do?
Deadmonkiefart
Floccinaucinihilipilificator
+177|6677
As long as it is legal, I'm all for it.  It's not like it has any effect on the people who don't agree with it.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6376|North Carolina

Pubic wrote:

If they use those "courts" as a mechanism to resolve civil issues then theres not really a lot that can be done about it.  Criminal are a different matter entirely, IF they come to the attention of the British legal system.

Wasn't there a survey taken within a year or so of now, which found out that 1 in 5 UK muslims wanted sharia law in the UK?  Immigration isn't generally allowed with the understanding that the immigrants will try and erode/restrict the freedoms that their receiving nation gives to all of it's citizens.  A sizeable chunk of UK muslims want sharia...given present-day examples of countries with sharia law and in particular the UK "honour" killings, I think that a negative reaction to the suggestion of sharia courts in the UK is justified.

When in rome, do as the romans do?
Maybe the UK shouldn't let so many Muslims into their country.  Plenty of people want to move to the First World.  The British should be more selective in who they let in.

For example, they should let in more Chinese or Eastern Europeans instead of so many Pakistanis.  I'm not saying all Muslims are extremist, but if 1 in 5 want Sharia Law, then that's a serious problem that can only be dealt with through selective immigration laws.
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6333|Vancouver

lowing wrote:

3. Islam as taught in the Koran is a violent and intolerant religion.
It's difficult to make an assumption about the tolerance of Islam as taught in the Qu'ran. It is an ambiguous argument, without clear definitions. Today's Islamic radicalism does give a certain portrayal to a violent religion that will not tolerate other religions, but that opinion contrasts with history. Likely the most prominent example is Andalusian Spain of Islamic rule. Following the 711 invasion of Iberia by Islamic armies, religious freedom was completely tolerated on the peninsula, as was custom for all areas of Muslim conquest. I name Spain as the most significant, as it became a region where existed Islam, Christianity, and Judaism in near harmony. In fact, Jews facilitated and significantly aided the Islamic invasion. I remember reading of one incident in the eighth century in Cordoba, the Islamic capital of Andalusia, where after decades of Muslims and Christians praying and worshiping in the same Christian church (as Islam commanded respect for fellow 'People of the Book'), the church was removed to create an Islamic mosque. Immediately, the Christian community was reimbursed fully so as to build a new church. Christianity of the Dark Ages was severely more intolerant than Islam, especially when it came to other religions.

Therefore, we cannot assume that Islam is a violent and intolerant religion. However, we can make arguments that there are certain fundamentalist strains that have affected Islam in recent history. But, does that justify censoring an entire religion and its followers? The individualism of Western society seems violated by these ideas of a state that defines its culture and religion. More so, it smacks of nationalism, and especially the idea of nationalism as a method to create conflict against those who do not meet the definition. It limits those within that idea of a nation, and too often that involves race or religion in an effort to shape that nationalism in a cooperative effort at the expense of others.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6376|North Carolina
What about Muhammad's handling of the Qurayza Jewish tribe?  That wasn't exactly tolerant....
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6614

Turquoise wrote:

What about Muhammad's handling of the Qurayza Jewish tribe?  That wasn't exactly tolerant....
interpreted as just retribution to those that betrayed him.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6376|North Carolina
Possibly...  but I'll take a pacifist martyr over a conqueror any day.
David.P
Banned
+649|6244
Oh fuck it! I'm tired of this pc bullshit regarding Islam! It is not nor has ever been a religion of peace! Right now the things its doing in europe are only to bring about another caliphate, And gullible westerners ashamed of the actions of their ancestors, Are helping it right along because they dont wanna be seen as racist's, When they infact are repeating the same steps that led to ww2!
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6614
put muslims in concentration camps?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6376|North Carolina

David.P wrote:

Oh fuck it! I'm tired of this pc bullshit regarding Islam! It is not nor has ever been a religion of peace! Right now the things its doing in europe are only to bring about another caliphate, And gullible westerners ashamed of the actions of their ancestors, Are helping it right along because they dont wanna be seen as racist's, When they infact are repeating the same steps that led to ww2!
It's not that the majority of Muslims are pulling this shit.  The problem is that too many well-intended Europeans aren't calling out the ultraconservative Muslims for their bullshit.  If Europeans and moderate Muslims would just tell the conservative Muslims to fuck off, this wouldn't even be much of a problem.
David.P
Banned
+649|6244

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

put muslims in concentration camps?
No. I have a better idea. Which i wont say because of the brutality and gruesomeness of it will make half the people here vomit uncontrollably.

EDIT: And no no mass genocide this time.

Last edited by David.P (2008-02-12 20:17:57)

Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6552|SE London

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho … 80522.html


How 'bout UK news?.,.......................yeah, there is no problems in England regarding Islam.
No one said that.

No problems in England with regards to Sharia courts, which that article is not related to. There are issues of religious based violence towards women amongst numerous religious communities in the UK, Sikhs and Hindus cause about as many problems on that front as Muslims though. It's not an "Islam Problem", it's an immigrant problem which has been demonstrated to recede from generation to generation. The problem is the continued rate of immigration from vastly differing cultures, something which the EU is placing more and more, much needed, stringent restrictions on. The more recent immigrants are typically the problem - their children become Anglicised sufficiently for this not to be a long term issue if immigration gets sorted out.
No one said that?/!!........yer kiddin' right?? I have been called and accused of everything from being paranoid to being a Nazi in regards to Islamic issues in Europe.

Please do not try and tell me that I have NOT been told that Islam  in Europe is a NON-ISSUE and that all of this is just media hype and generalizing.
I didn't tell you that. Note the underlined section above.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6812|Cologne, Germany

FEOS wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

You people are on the outside looking in. Comment on UK US foreign policies and going on in the wider world were we are all observing on a level playing field. We level headed individuals make up our own opinion about our own country, we refuse to take what the right or left wing media says as gospel, never mind people who have probably never set foot on UK US soil.
There. I believe others have said something similar in the past regarding UK/EU interest in US domestic policy...

If you dish it out (not YOU necessarily, but EU forum members in general), then you need to take it.
well, from what I can tell, we are not "taking it" any worse than you. I guess we're all defensive about the internal affairs of our respective nations.

I do also believe, btw, that we should try not to always look at this from a EU vs. US perspective. After all, we're not enemies. All of us like our sovereignity, and that's a good thing.


PS: from a more humorous point of view, I'd just like to point out that I have never "taken it"....
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6812|Cologne, Germany

David.P wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

put muslims in concentration camps?
No. I have a better idea. Which i wont say because of the brutality and gruesomeness of it will make half the people here vomit uncontrollably.

EDIT: And no no mass genocide this time.
well, let us hear it. Because all I have heard from you, lowing, FEOS and the like so far is complaining and bickering.

What's the solution ? Genocide obviously isn't an option, neither are concentration camps. Immigration laws are such that you cannot deny any group of persons immigration solely based on their religion. Freedom of religion is an important part of the US Bill of Rights and all major western constitutions, let alone applicable anti-discrimination laws.

And what to do about those muslims that have US or EU citizenship ? Those are our fellow citizens...

Come on, gentlemen, let's hear it. If everything you are warning us about is true, what are your suggestions ?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526

lowing wrote:

1. Islamic terrorism is just that Islamic terrorism
Given that it expressly contravenes many laws of the Q'uran I don't exactly regard it as the most wholesomely Islamic activity in the world. Don't make me reprint for the 4th time.

lowing wrote:

2. Islam as it is taught in the Koran does not mesh with the values and morals we have esptablished in the west.
You would think that but the contrary has been demonstrated in the likes of Turkey. I do agree there are some fundamental differences however.

lowing wrote:

3. Islam as taught in the Koran is a violent and intolerant religion.
Islam as it is taught in Saudi Arabia is a far far cry from how it is taught in the US, UK, France, Turkey, Jordan, Morocco, etc. In the same way Jews aren't taught to adhere to the less savoury elements of the Torah, most Muslims aren't taught to follow the less savoury elements of the Q'uran.

lowing wrote:

4. The greater the Islamic immigration into a country they greater the risk of radicalism in that country.
That is true. But I'm not a fan of further immigration from the Islamic world and never contended that I was, I'm certainly an ardent opponent of illegal immigration. Young British Muslims have demonstrated however that a generation or two in they pretty much forget about Islam and follow western norms.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-02-13 00:53:32)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526

FEOS wrote:

Wow. The hypocrisy is rampant.
FEOS - no hypocrisy there. I don't care about your internal affairs - your healthcare system, your taxes, your gun laws, any of that bullshit.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6382|'Murka

CameronPoe wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Wow. The hypocrisy is rampant.
FEOS - no hypocrisy there. I don't care about your internal affairs - your healthcare system, your taxes, your gun laws, any of that bullshit.
Not directed at you specifically, Cam.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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