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Poll

Are you a Christian?

I would like to be 50% 50% - 157 50% 50% - 157
I don't want anything to do with that! 55% 55% - 174 44% 44% - 140
Total: 314
2006-07-20 05:20:16
Daysniper
Member
+42|6874

T0xicboy wrote:

Skruples wrote:

We already knew we weren't on an average planet. We know of 9 planets, and ours is the only "good" one, thus in the 'known universe' of planets ours is very unaverage. However, you seemed to be trying to use that video as evidence that life should not exist naturally, and that is an error. At best, even if we accept for the moment that everything it says is true, it only provides evidence that we should be the only life in this galaxy. As I said before, if we include the entire universe and still say that the odds of life are 1x10^-15, life is still likely to happen somewhere. It just happened to happen here.
It's true in a sense, we only have found life on Earth at the moment.


******* Not a flame against Skruples, more likely a support of his theories *********

Both Mars and Venus are pretty much equal good as Earth to have life on it, being within the right distance from this type of star.
The problem is that Venus have a really bad case of Global Warming at the moment, it's too hot there for us.
And Mars is the opposite, not enough Greenhouse Effect to keep it warm enough for things like us to live there.

And then we have the problem with the composition of the atmosphere there, but then again, life that would grow and live there would probably be adapted to that environment.
Just look at harsh environments on earth, we have stuff living in superheated sulfer-laden water, and they will die if we move them to plain water.

It’s all about adaptation, or a God with a good sense of humor.
Or whatever you believe created and still mutates or maybe upgrades the different types of things that exist on earth.

The bottom line is that all three planets could have life on them if the conditions on the actual planets would be acceptable.
Keep in mind that Earth can be the next Venus if the Global Worming continues, a change of climate for a planet can go pretty quickly, and it’s more or less reversibly.


3 out of 9 is pretty good in my point of view, then again our solar system might be a really weird one compared to all the millions millions millions solar systems out there…..


/Toxic
You are absolutely right. But if life could develop and adapt to Venus or Mars (well, it already has adapted and died on mars ), then theoretically it could adapt anywhere, comets, asteroids, the gas giants, even the TNOs like Pluto, Xena, Quaoar, and Sedna! If it can a adapt to a harsh condition of heat, what is there to say it can't evolve to be resistant of cold as well. This is why astrobiology is such a hot topic right now.We keep proving ourselves wrong on where things can and can't live.

Oh, and just because I'm a nerd, its either 8 planets, 10, or unknown. if pluto counts, then so does "Xena" (2003 UB313), if it doesn't, then there are only 8. If "Xena" counts, then there are likely larger TNOs out there. This is what the IAU is debating at this very moment. We should have an answer by next year, but don't get your hopes up.

Last edited by Daysniper (2006-07-20 05:20:46)

2006-07-20 05:29:30
Daysniper
Member
+42|6874

Vub wrote:

Have a look at the Earth, it is "perfect" to harbour life. A few thousand kilometres nearer or closer to the Sun would turn us into Mars or the Moon or Venus, which are lifeless. So is it by pure chance, that surrounding this yellow star, a planet with all the chemicals and conditions which are essential for life to begin, grouped together? The air temperature, the vast oceans of water, the oxygen in the atmosphere, the ozone which blocks out UVb and UVc, and the carbon and nitrogen and complex carbohydrates and proteins and DNA: the chances of all that is infinitesimal. These conditions were set in place when God created the Earth.

Another thing, there are some extremely complex and ingenious structures in the world, such as the eye, which couldn't have developed out of random mutations.
Ok, I don't know if you know this, but Mars also had an atmosphere, water, and presumable small forms of life. But because of its gravity, its magnetic field was weak, and couldn't keep the solar wind from ripping away the atmosphere, so the water dried up. So, now we have 2 planets, in about the same area from the medium sized star. The "goldilocks zone". Catch my drift?

Also, you imply that the moon is at a different distance from the Sun than the Earth. You imply if the Earth were at that distance, it would be lifeless. Well we don't know the answer because it doesn't happen, but the moon did not form from particles collecting in a seperate ring. Billions of years a go a mars-sized object smashed into a plasma-earth, blasting chusks of it that stayed in a ring around Earth and collected into the moon. No atmosphere created. Go see "Cosmic Collisions" a planetarium show running everywhere.
2006-07-20 08:01:12
Chuckles
Member
+32|6787

Anfidurl wrote:

Chuckles wrote:

There are lots and lots of people that are converted as an adult, so I don't think you can lay it all on the feet of impressionable youth.
Ah, but if it wasn't for the youth, who would age and then take in those handfuls who decided to join up? You see the quandry?
Well, kind of.  The fact of the matter is though that people of all ages and  come to embrace religion.  You can't discount the adults just because they may or may not have been "taken in" by someone who was raised Christian as a child.

Last edited by Chuckles (2006-07-20 08:02:00)

2006-07-20 08:04:40
Chuckles
Member
+32|6787
Why does the existence of God have anything to do with life on other planets?
2006-07-20 08:44:10
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|7068

Chuckles wrote:

Anfidurl wrote:

Chuckles wrote:

There are lots and lots of people that are converted as an adult, so I don't think you can lay it all on the feet of impressionable youth.
Ah, but if it wasn't for the youth, who would age and then take in those handfuls who decided to join up? You see the quandry?
Well, kind of.  The fact of the matter is though that people of all ages and  come to embrace religion.  You can't discount the adults just because they may or may not have been "taken in" by someone who was raised Christian as a child.
Certainly in the UK more people convert from christianity to athiesm when they grow up than the other way round.
2006-07-20 08:58:43
Chuckles
Member
+32|6787

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

Certainly in the UK more people convert from christianity to athiesm when they grow up than the other way round.
Be that as it may, I think it's besides the point.  If people convert to Christianity at all ages it's not just a phenomenon that has been perpetuated by foisting it on the youth of the world.
2006-07-20 09:36:10
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|7016
It still amazes me how much atheists credit to randomness and still think they are using logic. Like the moon, an object probably a little bigger than mars smashed into earth at just the right time and made a perfect size moon that would stablize earth, control tides, and be just the right distance from earth when humans are around to see perfect eclipses and make scientific discoveries. All at random. Thats just one of many "coincidences" all happening on one planet.

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-07-20 11:55:33)

2006-07-20 09:39:00
Mr.E
HakLaw in the house
+103|6799
yes of course i am big bird.
2006-07-20 14:28:23
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS

JaMDuDe wrote:

It still amazes me how much atheists credit to randomness and still think they are using logic. Like the moon, an object probably a little bigger than mars smashed into earth at just the right time and made a perfect size moon that would stablize earth, control tides, and be just the right distance from earth when humans are around to see perfect eclipses and make scientific discoveries. All at random. Thats just one of many "coincidences" all happening on one planet.
I still don't see why life couldn't exist without a moon. Especially if it existed BEFORE the moon.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-07-20 14:45:35
Daysniper
Member
+42|6874

JaMDuDe wrote:

It still amazes me how much atheists credit to randomness and still think they are using logic. Like the moon, an object probably a little bigger than mars smashed into earth at just the right time and made a perfect size moon that would stablize earth, control tides, and be just the right distance from earth when humans are around to see perfect eclipses and make scientific discoveries. All at random. Thats just one of many "coincidences" all happening on one planet.
1. Any size moon would control the tides!
2. The Earth isn't completely stabalized. It still precesses every 20,000 years or so.
3. You've got me on the Eclipse part, but so?
4. So you're saying we wouldn't be able to make scientific discoveries if the moon were different? Now you're just babbling...

oh, and to Spark: not to dismiss your argument or anything but uh, life didn't exist before the moon.

Last edited by Daysniper (2006-07-20 14:46:45)

2006-07-20 15:03:35
Chuckles
Member
+32|6787

Daysniper wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

It still amazes me how much atheists credit to randomness and still think they are using logic. Like the moon, an object probably a little bigger than mars smashed into earth at just the right time and made a perfect size moon that would stablize earth, control tides, and be just the right distance from earth when humans are around to see perfect eclipses and make scientific discoveries. All at random. Thats just one of many "coincidences" all happening on one planet.
1. Any size moon would control the tides!
2. The Earth isn't completely stabalized. It still precesses every 20,000 years or so.
3. You've got me on the Eclipse part, but so?
4. So you're saying we wouldn't be able to make scientific discoveries if the moon were different? Now you're just babbling...

oh, and to Spark: not to dismiss your argument or anything but uh, life didn't exist before the moon.
I'm still confused as to how any of this really advances either side of the original argument.
2006-07-20 16:23:19
Daysniper
Member
+42|6874

Chuckles wrote:

Daysniper wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

It still amazes me how much atheists credit to randomness and still think they are using logic. Like the moon, an object probably a little bigger than mars smashed into earth at just the right time and made a perfect size moon that would stablize earth, control tides, and be just the right distance from earth when humans are around to see perfect eclipses and make scientific discoveries. All at random. Thats just one of many "coincidences" all happening on one planet.
1. Any size moon would control the tides!
2. The Earth isn't completely stabalized. It still precesses every 20,000 years or so.
3. You've got me on the Eclipse part, but so?
4. So you're saying we wouldn't be able to make scientific discoveries if the moon were different? Now you're just babbling...

oh, and to Spark: not to dismiss your argument or anything but uh, life didn't exist before the moon.
I'm still confused as to how any of this really advances either side of the original argument.
I never said it was supposed to advance either side did I? I forget what the argument is anyway!
JaMDuDe and I have had a history in this sort of thing...

Last edited by Daysniper (2006-07-20 16:23:55)

2006-07-20 16:50:30
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6766|Portland, OR USA

Daysniper wrote:

Vub wrote:

Have a look at the Earth, it is "perfect" to harbour life. A few thousand kilometres nearer or closer to the Sun would turn us into Mars or the Moon or Venus, which are lifeless. So is it by pure chance, that surrounding this yellow star, a planet with all the chemicals and conditions which are essential for life to begin, grouped together? The air temperature, the vast oceans of water, the oxygen in the atmosphere, the ozone which blocks out UVb and UVc, and the carbon and nitrogen and complex carbohydrates and proteins and DNA: the chances of all that is infinitesimal. These conditions were set in place when God created the Earth.

Another thing, there are some extremely complex and ingenious structures in the world, such as the eye, which couldn't have developed out of random mutations.
Ok, I don't know if you know this, but Mars also had an atmosphere, water, and presumable small forms of life. But because of its gravity, its magnetic field was weak, and couldn't keep the solar wind from ripping away the atmosphere, so the water dried up. So, now we have 2 planets, in about the same area from the medium sized star. The "goldilocks zone". Catch my drift?

Also, you imply that the moon is at a different distance from the Sun than the Earth. You imply if the Earth were at that distance, it would be lifeless. Well we don't know the answer because it doesn't happen, but the moon did not form from particles collecting in a seperate ring. Billions of years a go a mars-sized object smashed into a plasma-earth, blasting chusks of it that stayed in a ring around Earth and collected into the moon. No atmosphere created. Go see "Cosmic Collisions" a planetarium show running everywhere.
so you watched that Discovery Channel show on the moons too, eh?  Good stuff ...

Without the moon, life would be ... different to say the very least.  The sway of the moon over our populous, to say nothing of the oceans, is beyond refute.  Ever noticed that women and the moon have the exact same cycle?  That's not coincidence.    Ever considered the genesis of lunacy?  Ask anyone in the mental health profession ... people go ape shit during a full moon, it's no urban legend.
2006-07-20 16:55:19
Daysniper
Member
+42|6874
what?
2006-07-20 16:58:26
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6766|Portland, OR USA
where'd I lose you?
2006-07-20 17:01:03
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|7016
Daysniper, what do you mean you have history in this sort of thing? You seem to not know much about it. If the moon were smaller we would have a bigger tilt and the northern hemisphere would be scorched. If the tilt were smaller we wouldnt have monsoons that bring seasonal rain to many places. I never said if the moon were a different size we wouldnt be able to make any scientific discoveries. The moon used to be much closer to earth. Humans seem to hit earth at just the right time when the moon is just the right distance from earth so we can see perfect eclipses and make scientific discoveries like the theory of general relativity. You were right about the stablizing part, even though i never said the moon keeps earth perfectly stable forever. Earths tilt varies from 22.1 to 24.5 degrees every several thousand years. If the tilt were higher or lower we probably wouldnt be here.

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-07-20 17:03:01)

2006-07-20 17:04:52
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6766|Portland, OR USA
the poles also reverse themselves.  We are not roaming a stable rock.
2006-07-20 17:16:02
Daysniper
Member
+42|6874

JaMDuDe wrote:

Daysniper, what do you mean you have history in this sort of thing? You seem to not know much about it. If the moon were smaller we would have a bigger tilt and the northern hemisphere would be scorched. If the tilt were smaller we wouldnt have monsoons that bring seasonal rain to many places. I never said if the moon were a different size we wouldnt be able to make any scientific discoveries. The moon used to be much closer to earth. Humans seem to hit earth at just the right time when the moon is just the right distance from earth so we can see perfect eclipses and make scientific discoveries like the theory of general relativity. You were right about the stablizing part, even though i never said the moon keeps earth perfectly stable forever. Earths tilt varies from 22.1 to 24.5 degrees every several thousand years. If the tilt were higher or lower we probably wouldnt be here.
Sorry, you misunderstood. I mean you and I have a history of arguing and not advancing any points!

Last edited by Daysniper (2006-07-20 17:16:16)

2006-07-20 17:17:04
Daysniper
Member
+42|6874

puckmercury wrote:

where'd I lose you?
you lost me at the Discovery channel thing.
2006-07-20 17:25:09
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6766|Portland, OR USA
oh, sorry.  There was a program on the moons of the Sol system which detailed exactly what you just said.  The other points are other bits of scientific evidence.
2006-07-20 17:48:50
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6789|CH/BR - in UK

OK, I will think in your way: God created man. God created free will. God, therefore, directly or indirectly created science. Why would god create something that contradicts him? Why would he make it so that the majority of humanity don't believe in him?
Furthermore, I still 'believe in' science... It's the only 'theory' that appeals both to my intellect and reasoning...
2006-07-20 17:50:23
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6789|CH/BR - in UK

Daysniper wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

It still amazes me how much atheists credit to randomness and still think they are using logic. Like the moon, an object probably a little bigger than mars smashed into earth at just the right time and made a perfect size moon that would stablize earth, control tides, and be just the right distance from earth when humans are around to see perfect eclipses and make scientific discoveries. All at random. Thats just one of many "coincidences" all happening on one planet.
1. Any size moon would control the tides!
2. The Earth isn't completely stabalized. It still precesses every 20,000 years or so.
3. You've got me on the Eclipse part, but so?
4. So you're saying we wouldn't be able to make scientific discoveries if the moon were different? Now you're just babbling...

oh, and to Spark: not to dismiss your argument or anything but uh, life didn't exist before the moon.
says who? maybe not on planet earth, but possibly anywhere else: mars, venus, another solarsystem, another galaxy...
2006-07-20 17:53:52
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6766|Portland, OR USA

Konfusion0 wrote:

OK, I will think in your way: God created man. God created free will. God, therefore, directly or indirectly created science. Why would god create something that contradicts him? Why would he make it so that the majority of humanity don't believe in him?
Furthermore, I still 'believe in' science... It's the only 'theory' that appeals both to my intellect and reasoning...
if you could pick any woman in the world, and control them.  I mean totally dominate them and have them think do and feel in any manner that pleased you, would you?  Are you so desperate for attention that you would facilitate such a hollow robot?
2006-07-20 17:53:53
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6789|CH/BR - in UK

JaMDuDe wrote:

Daysniper, what do you mean you have history in this sort of thing? You seem to not know much about it. If the moon were smaller we would have a bigger tilt and the northern hemisphere would be scorched. If the tilt were smaller we wouldnt have monsoons that bring seasonal rain to many places. I never said if the moon were a different size we wouldnt be able to make any scientific discoveries. The moon used to be much closer to earth. Humans seem to hit earth at just the right time when the moon is just the right distance from earth so we can see perfect eclipses and make scientific discoveries like the theory of general relativity. You were right about the stablizing part, even though i never said the moon keeps earth perfectly stable forever. Earths tilt varies from 22.1 to 24.5 degrees every several thousand years. If the tilt were higher or lower we probably wouldnt be here.
Humans didn't "seem to hit earth right at just the right time"
The mutations, later to become humans, evolved then, because it was opportune for them, and the atmosphere or whatever was good for them... It was not an utter coincidence
2006-07-20 17:55:36
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6789|CH/BR - in UK

puckmercury wrote:

if you could pick any woman in the world, and control them.  I mean totally dominate them and have them think do and feel in any manner that pleased you, would you?  Are you so desperate for attention that you would facilitate such a hollow robot?
Now where did that come into play?

 

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