fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6492|Menlo Park, CA
1. 12 years of Saddam refusing to comply with the terms of his surrender in the Gulf War
2. 12 years of almost daily firing on UN planes in the "no fly zone" (these were British and American)
3. 12 years of refusing to fully dismantle his war machine as ordered by the Gulf War peace accords
4. 12 years of refusing UN inspectors full and unfettered access to inspect Iraqi weapons sites
5. 12 years of intelligence reports from various nations (Great Britain, Germany, Israel, France, the CIA) that Saddam was pursuing nuclear and biological capabilities
6. At the time of the invasion, most of the intelligence communities in the world said that Iraq was pursuing a WMD program
7. At the time of the invasion, the UN assumed he was pursuing a WMD prgram, as why else would he hamper UN weapons inspectors like Hans Blix?
8. At the time of the invasion, the UN didn't say Saddam didn't have WMD's, but instead urged for "more time" to allow inspections
9. Saddam had used WMD's against Iran and the Kurds in Iraq, showing a propensity to use such weapons
10. During the Gulf War, Saddam launched SCUD missles at Israel, hoping to draw them into the fray, and spark an Arab/Israeli conflict
11. Iraq had systematically killed and tortured any who oppossed Saddam
12. Iraq cheated on it's oil for food program, selling contracts for oil to Russian, French, and German concerns (how odd that those nations are the ones who most opposed the UN or US taking actions in Iraq...) while pocketing large sums of money and *not* using the revenue to help Iraq's people.

Basically, what led to the war was Saddam's refusal to abide by UN resolutions, his failure to abide by the terms of his surrender inthe first Gulf War, and the perception (by all intelligence communities, not just the US's) that Saddam was looking to produce WMD's.

In hindsight, we can see that the WMD program was either dismantled, or that WMD's were hidden or shipped to Iran or Syria. The large stores of WMD's had not materialized. So apparently, the US Intelligence community was fooled (as were British, French, German, and other nation's intelligence).

That said, why didn't Saddam just submit to the inspections? Why didn't he abide by the UN resolutions or the surrender agreement? He could have avoided this whole mess, and been living the high life in Bagdad?

Perhaps he liked being viewed as powerful and dangerous? Perhaps he didn't like answering to the UN? But regardless, for 12 years, he thumbed his nose at the rest of the world (yes, Canada, you too), and refused to abide by his own surrender agreement.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you:
What if following WW2, Hitler would have survived, Germany would not have been occupied (let's say the Allies stopped at Germany's borders, and had merely displaced all the occupying German troops from invaded countries, sort of like the Coalition forces did in Kuwait), and the Nazi war machine continued to produce weapons, and worked towards getting a nuclear device? Would you have faulted the US for invading Germany and deposing Hitler?

Like Hitler, Saddam had used WMD in the past, invaded his neighboring nations and occupied them, and basically said to the world "What are you going to do about it?". Would you have felt safe in 1948 if Hitler had been churning out weapons, and refusing to abide by his surrender agreement signed in 1945? Would you fault the US and Britain for wanting to disarm him? Why is the Iraq situation much different?

Consider that for a bit.

*I got this tidbit from another forum, so I am not claiming all this text is mine* However, I couldnt have said it better myself !

Last edited by fadedsteve (2007-06-18 14:47:31)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

Was Iraq an immediate imminent threat to the United States? That is the only question that needs to be asked. Those things are bad, but our Constitution only allows us to go to war if we are in immediate danger.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6622|London, England
Maybe so, but it was still a bad idea. We seemed to be right on the brink of destroying the Taliban until attention was focused on Iraq, now they're coming out of the woodwork again.

What we've done with the Iraq invasion:

- Allow the Taliban and AQ to regroup
- Given AQ another area to operate (Iraq- they may have been there before but now they're more free without Saddam)
- Ruined any credibility (look, we said they had WMD's and we couldn't find them, i don't care if they're hidden in the fuckin Amazon, we're still the ones that have been fooled and we're the ones who look like idiots)
- Iranian dominance in the region was handed to them on a silver plate
- Those WMD's that may have gone to Syria (doubt he'd give them to Iran, and this is if they're not in the Amazon or if they exist) just might end up in the hands of terrorists. Which is worse than in his hands.
- We've ruined a country


I dunno how many of my points are right, but that's what I think. We might've finished off the Taliban and AQ (in that region) had we stayed in Afghanistan proper and put pressure on Pakistan. Who knows...

---

Regardless of how much wrong shit Iraq has done, so has alot of other countries around the world in all continents. Why no invasions of them? Please, if anything...genocide and mass killings was a mere afterthought in the Invasion of Iraq.
-
topal63
. . .
+533|6720
1. Because they had already decided to.
2. Money.
3. Power, oops that of course leads to money.
4. Oil, oh yeah that equals money too.
5. As a reaction to 9/11, what a false pretext.
6. Misplaced patriotism of the general public, because #1, they had already planned it.
7. To finish the job? Desert storm wasn't over (enough!) 10+ years before Iraq war #2.
8. False links to Al Qaeda.
9. The so-called weapons of mass destruction - the immanent threat to US National Security.
10. Saddam is a bad guy, uh and like there isn't a bunch of others in the world as well?
11. Did I mention lies, damn lies and more lies?
12. Did I mention the actual US tax dollar costs, oh yeah that's money.
13. We're spreading freedom around the Globe!

Last edited by topal63 (2007-06-18 14:46:59)

fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6492|Menlo Park, CA

Kmarion wrote:

Was Iraq an immediate imminent threat to the United States? That is the only question that needs to be asked. Those things are bad, but our Constitution only allows us to go to war if we are in immediate danger.
The answer to that question is no, we werent in any "imminent" danger from Iraq. . . . I was mearly listing the reasons why the US decided to go to war with Saddam.  Some people on these forums dont know why we went there in the first place! Just a refresher if you will. . . . .
Superslim
BF2s Frat Brother
+211|6693|Calgary
Germany wasn't an imminent threat either and neither was Japan after their pacific fleet got wiped. But, given time, they would have been.
topal63
. . .
+533|6720

fadedsteve wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Was Iraq an immediate imminent threat to the United States? That is the only question that needs to be asked. Those things are bad, but our Constitution only allows us to go to war if we are in immediate danger.
The answer to that question is no, we werent in any "imminent" danger from Iraq. . . . I was mearly listing the reasons why the US decided to go to war with Saddam.  Some people on these forums dont know why we went there in the first place! Just a refresher if you will. . . . .
We all know the details of this. What you've posted aren't reasons. They are talking points in an argument for a "call to war." And they fail without the proper public sentiment to back up a - call to war. The real reasons are all lies.

Superslim wrote:

Germany wasn't an imminent threat either and neither was Japan after their pacific fleet got wiped. But, given time, they would have been.
Funny, but that is, sort of, what Tony Blair said.

Last edited by topal63 (2007-06-18 14:52:05)

m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK

fadedsteve wrote:

1. Bollocks
2. Bollocks
3. Bollocks
4. Bollocks
5. Bollocks
6. Bollocks
7. Bollocks
8. Bollocks
9. Bollocks
10. Bollocks
11. Bollocks
12. Bollocks
Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!! I love the smell of desperation of the morning.

it gives me wood.

Last edited by m3thod (2007-06-18 14:51:06)

Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6492|Menlo Park, CA
No desperation, just refreshing people's memory as to why the war occured in the first place. . . .

Bottom line is the Bush administration had the plans for fighting the war, they just didnt have plans for the reconstruction!! Thats what fucking boggles my mind!!

Last edited by fadedsteve (2007-06-18 14:51:43)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

Superslim wrote:

Germany wasn't an imminent threat either and neither was Japan after their pacific fleet got wiped. But, given time, they would have been.
Japan wasn't an imminent threat?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6492|Menlo Park, CA

Kmarion wrote:

Superslim wrote:

Germany wasn't an imminent threat either and neither was Japan after their pacific fleet got wiped. But, given time, they would have been.
Japan wasn't an imminent threat?
Germany and Japan were imminent threats the entire time!!
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK

fadedsteve wrote:

No desperation, just refreshing people's memory as to why the war occured in the first place. . . .
You 'reasons' wasn't the ones presented by your neo cons overlords.

Digging around for more just weakens your pathetic case further.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK

Superslim wrote:

Germany wasn't an imminent threat either and neither was Japan after their pacific fleet got wiped. But, given time, they would have been.
Germany had taken over the whole of ruddy Europe for god sake.  How was it not a threat?!!!!

*boggle*
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

m3thod wrote:

Superslim wrote:

Germany wasn't an imminent threat either and neither was Japan after their pacific fleet got wiped. But, given time, they would have been.
Germany had taken over the whole of ruddy Europe for god sake.  How was it not a threat?!!!!

*boggle*
*Extreme boggle*
Xbone Stormsurgezz
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6492|Menlo Park, CA

m3thod wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

No desperation, just refreshing people's memory as to why the war occured in the first place. . . .
You 'reasons' wasn't the ones presented by your neo cons overlords.

Digging around for more just weakens your pathetic case further.
The case for war was legit!! The timing is what wasnt wise on the part of the Bush administration. . . .
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK

fadedsteve wrote:

m3thod wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

No desperation, just refreshing people's memory as to why the war occured in the first place. . . .
You 'reasons' wasn't the ones presented by your neo cons overlords.

Digging around for more just weakens your pathetic case further.
The case for war was legit!! The timing is what wasnt wise on the part of the Bush administration. . . .
Yeah back in 1988 when he was gassing his people! Where the fuck where you people then? Oh, that right selling him the damn fucking things.

You bollox'ed up just admit it.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6622|London, England

m3thod wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

m3thod wrote:


You 'reasons' wasn't the ones presented by your neo cons overlords.

Digging around for more just weakens your pathetic case further.
The case for war was legit!! The timing is what wasnt wise on the part of the Bush administration. . . .
Yeah back in 1988 when he was gassing his people! Where the fuck where you people then? Oh, that right selling him the damn fucking things.

You bollox'ed up just admit it.
Agreed, should've just fucked him over totally when he invaded Kuwait. There and then decapitation strike.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

m3thod wrote:

Oh, that right selling him the damn fucking things.
.
Including West Germany, the United Kingdom, France and China.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK

Kmarion wrote:

m3thod wrote:

Oh, that right selling him the damn fucking things.
.
Including West Germany, the United Kingdom, France and China.
indeed.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6622|London, England

m3thod wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

m3thod wrote:

Oh, that right selling him the damn fucking things.
.
Including West Germany, the United Kingdom, France and China.
indeed.
...and Pakistan.
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6562

Kmarion wrote:

Was Iraq an immediate imminent threat to the United States? That is the only question that needs to be asked. Those things are bad, but our Constitution only allows us to go to war if we are in immediate danger.
When can you really know if something is imminent? You don't. It happens, then you say " Shit, should have done something about that before it happened."
Black Vaine
Member
+43|6623|K-Town, Sweden
Many points had the name "Saddam" in them, he's dead now... and... umm, yeah.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6763

Kmarion wrote:

Was Iraq an immediate imminent threat to the United States? That is the only question that needs to be asked. Those things are bad, but our Constitution only allows us to go to war if we are in immediate danger.
Did we have troops stationed in Saudi?  Ships in the gulf?

A threat does not imply it was imminent to someone in Iowa.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK

usmarine2005 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Was Iraq an immediate imminent threat to the United States? That is the only question that needs to be asked. Those things are bad, but our Constitution only allows us to go to war if we are in immediate danger.
Did we have troops stationed in Saudi?  Ships in the gulf?

A threat does not imply it was imminent to someone in Iowa.
True.

However, the threat presented by Saddam was non existent whether you were an American citizen in Saudi or one back in the motherland.

He was a threat to his own people who have the responsibility to deal with him or the maybe the wanky pokey UN....
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

usmarine2005 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Was Iraq an immediate imminent threat to the United States? That is the only question that needs to be asked. Those things are bad, but our Constitution only allows us to go to war if we are in immediate danger.
Did we have troops stationed in Saudi?  Ships in the gulf?

A threat does not imply it was imminent to someone in Iowa.
Saddam was attacking our ships in the gulf?

As far as our forces deployed away. If the imminent Danger would not "admit of delay" (meaning we could not get them out of danger), then yes the Constitution allows for action.

Other than that our Nation itself has to be at risk.
Xbone Stormsurgezz

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