BF2S Forums Yet another suicide in Guantanamo bay

Ty wrote:

Gitmo is not your average prison, not even your average prison for the worst of the worst.

People are being held and tortured there this fact cannot be disputed. One may say that they get meals and freedom of religion and that's all very hospitable, but torture does occur. As everyone knows torturing prisoners is against the Geneva Convention, but here's an interesting factoid, there are no prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Extremely clever the way they have been declared "enemy combatants", not prisoners, an ingenious way to get round those annoying parts of the Geneva Convention which of course does not say anything about torturing enemy combatants now does it?

Actually, they are held under the title of EPW, Enemy Prisoner of War.  This is a status in the geneva convention.  They are not 'prisoners,' because it is a detainment facility run by the the department of defense, not the department of corrections or justice.

As to how torture is viewed in the Geneva convention, what they do is not to obtain confessions, but to draw information that may be of strategic or tactical use in the current conflict.  And if you think this 'white torture' is seriously bad, you need to get out more.  Pull out the history books.  Look how the inquisition handled people they declared heritics or witches.  Look at the torture inflicted by North Vietnamese on American pilots in Vietnam.  Look at the middle east, how they treat each other as a normal part of business.  American detainment facilities are luxury hotels compared to what many of these people have gone through.

Now, more fun on the Geneva convention.  soldiers involved in hostilities MUST wear an established and recognizable uniform, MUST carry an identification card with that soldiers name, military affiliation, and geneva convention POW catagory (1, 2 or 3.  1 is enlisted, 2 is officer and NCO, 3 is special, such as medics or chaplains).  Failure to follow these means that person captured can be treated as a spy and SHOT OUT OF HAND.  No trial, no detainment, no muss, just a bloodstain and a shallow grave, and it is perfectly legal, so long as they were bearing arms against another countries military.  The French resistance from WW2 had absolutely NO protection under the Geneva Convention.  Spies on either side have NO protection.

This was written into the Geneva convention because it was known even then that the convention only works if both sides are using it.  The entire Geneva convention is based on reciprocity, that if one sides act like decent people, that the other side has to as well.  The results of breaking the geneva convention had to be so horrid that noone would want to break it. 

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/geneva- … rules.html

yes, this is a biased website.  I am aknowledging that right up front.  However, it does raise a very good issue.

=JoD=Corithus wrote:

Lol.  I think I made the wittle guy angwy.....
I do so love it when people post purely from emotion without any factual or logical base, it makes things so much easier.....thanks "HunterOfSkulls" , lol.  You did more for my arguement than I ever could.

Yeah, you got me pegged there, I am angry. It angers me that a nation that was supposed to be founded on independence, freedom and subservience of government to the will of its people still manages to spawn people like yourself on such a regular basis. People with a childlike obedience to government and a primitive and unrealistic black/white good/evil worldview that allows them to accept the idea that a huge group of people could be monolithically evil. People who can actually use the word "extermination" and mean it. People who can justify short-sighted and dangerous idiocy like this because "they're the bad guys" and then claim other people are arguing purely from emotion without factual or logical base. Well good luck to you and may your chains always be as comfortable as they are now.

Kmarion wrote:

There is no doubt in my mind that this has happened. I would like to see the evidence that this is happening "a lot". Maybe this is why so many have been released? Either way we just don't know anything beyond speculation.

Unfortunately we find out about this shit third-hand at best. Our government still isn't very good at the whole responsibility or admission of guilt thing.

Kmarion wrote:

The possibility of having an end to hostilities in a war against an abstract idea is ridiculous. So yes, I agree.

It's only ridiculous to us. It's not ridiculous to people invested in the idea of holding on to the powers war against an abstract idea gives them.

Kmarion wrote:

I was a little too broad in my wording. I was speaking directly to the point of Habeas Corpus. Many of the detainees are not on trial. I think that's part of the beef the civil rights people have (Charge them or release them).

Actually as I understand it, the "Ha ha, no habeas corpus for you" argument is being applied to the ones that are being tried. This, as well as the denial of counsel is the center of the civil rights arguments. As I said, the US government seems to want everything; they want to try them criminally but without any of the rights and protections a defendant in a criminal trial is supposed to have.

Kmarion wrote:

The topic seems to be suggesting that these prisoners are so mistreated that suicide is the only answer. I guess no one can really judge what it must be like to be in a situation unless they have personally experienced it, but I just don't see it from my view (Comfortably behind my computer drinking my Starbuck's).

Myself, I think it's a misguided and ultimately pointless display of defiance. I think they're doing it to show their resolve mostly. However I really don't think it's the Club Med-type getaway people are trying to spin it as and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the suicides are the product of extreme psychological stress.

Kmarion wrote:

Please don't think I am defending this. I have stated numerous times that this is very sketchy. What I am trying to explain is that what we are doing has been done throughout history in nearly every War. However, with the uncertainty of determining who the enemy is, and the authority the President (as CIC) now has to declare any combatant unlawful (No Geneva convention protection), we are loosing our system of balancing powers.

No worries about that, I know you wouldn't defend this nonsense. You see that the problem is far deeper than "Hurrrr, we hate teh Bush", it's about losing what little oversight we've had over our government and our government accruing a level of power and control over us that is very dangerous.

[TUF wrote:

Catbox]spin it how you like... lol...  Big mean US is making nice people into terrorists by keeping them at Gitmo...lol...
do you really believe that?   so naive...

Naive would be believing that wronged people don't look for payback. So no, it's not "Big mean US" it's "short-sighted foreign policy and military tactics". Shit, we have people in this country that blow a gasket over a parking ticket; I can't imagine what they'd be like if they ended up on an AC-130 to parts unknown with a hood over their heads and wearing shackles.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

The crime you speak of was committed by the Kidnaper who presented "Heer iz Al Kada ” as an operative, under false pretense for personal vendetta and or monetary gain. The US and its Military  have no culpability in this act. I know this is not what you want to hear or desperately believe and further. This will not lesson the  hatred many people have for this country. They are deluded in this case.

If you believe that, I have a car stereo system I'd like to sell you. I promise it's not stolen and even if it is you won't get busted for recieving stolen goods since you recieved it under false pretenses.

Our government and its intelligence community has a duty and a responsibility to make sure this does not happen for two important reasons. One, it obviously undermines cooperation in the region every time some poor slob who got traded off for cash goes home after someone finally figures out he has nothing to do with our enemies and tells everyone who will listen about the stupid and nasty Americans who thought all Arabs were terrorists. Two, it wastes time and resources to pick up, transport, incarcerate and interrogate someone who knows shit about shit. This is their fucking job and they need to be held accountable for it when they fuck up. They don't need excuses made for them.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

As sad as a situation like this would be for the person incarcerated it is nothing in comparison to the things our enemies do as a principle act of their culture alone and  Ironically what they would gleefully do to you in particular if you get your wish and America fails. IMHO

When did someone change IMHO to stand for "In My Half-assed Opinion"?

Making a blanket statement about such a huge culture is as dumb as saying, perhaps, "all Americans are decadent infidels". And you may lose sleep about waking up one moring and finding the Sharia police patrolling your neighborhood, I do not. It's ludicrous. Even if by some horrible happenstance they managed to take over this entire country, it would say more about the failure of would-be patriotic warriors like yourself than anything else. Do you really think your country is so weak? Would you just run and hide? Do you think the rest of America would? You'd do yourself a favor if you stopped conflating "We don't agree with this war or how it's being run" with "we luvz da terrists and we wants Sharia lawz". Most of us would be in more trouble than you would in such a climate and we have little doubt that you lot would gladly throw us in their path so you could then run off with your tails between your legs, precious hide intact. As I see it, America is all ready failing; it is abandoning its principles and the ideas of its founders in the name of becoming what those same founders fought to escape.

imortal wrote:

Ty wrote:

Gitmo is not your average prison, not even your average prison for the worst of the worst.

People are being held and tortured there this fact cannot be disputed. One may say that they get meals and freedom of religion and that's all very hospitable, but torture does occur. As everyone knows torturing prisoners is against the Geneva Convention, but here's an interesting factoid, there are no prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Extremely clever the way they have been declared "enemy combatants", not prisoners, an ingenious way to get round those annoying parts of the Geneva Convention which of course does not say anything about torturing enemy combatants now does it?

Actually, they are held under the title of EPW, Enemy Prisoner of War.  This is a status in the geneva convention.  They are not 'prisoners,' because it is a detainment facility run by the the department of defense, not the department of corrections or justice.

As to how torture is viewed in the Geneva convention, what they do is not to obtain confessions, but to draw information that may be of strategic or tactical use in the current conflict.  And if you think this 'white torture' is seriously bad, you need to get out more.  Pull out the history books.  Look how the inquisition handled people they declared heritics or witches.  Look at the torture inflicted by North Vietnamese on American pilots in Vietnam.  Look at the middle east, how they treat each other as a normal part of business.  American detainment facilities are luxury hotels compared to what many of these people have gone through.

Now, more fun on the Geneva convention.  soldiers involved in hostilities MUST wear an established and recognizable uniform, MUST carry an identification card with that soldiers name, military affiliation, and geneva convention POW catagory (1, 2 or 3.  1 is enlisted, 2 is officer and NCO, 3 is special, such as medics or chaplains).  Failure to follow these means that person captured can be treated as a spy and SHOT OUT OF HAND.  No trial, no detainment, no muss, just a bloodstain and a shallow grave, and it is perfectly legal, so long as they were bearing arms against another countries military.  The French resistance from WW2 had absolutely NO protection under the Geneva Convention.  Spies on either side have NO protection.

This was written into the Geneva convention because it was known even then that the convention only works if both sides are using it.  The entire Geneva convention is based on reciprocity, that if one sides act like decent people, that the other side has to as well.  The results of breaking the geneva convention had to be so horrid that noone would want to break it. 

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/geneva- … rules.html

yes, this is a biased website.  I am aknowledging that right up front.  However, it does raise a very good issue.

So we can maim, torture, and kill everyone they see if they aren't wearing uniforms? Score!

Spark wrote:

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

don't have military uniforms, which means they don't fight properly, which means they aren't gentlemen, which means they get treated worse than farm animals.

really ? " they get treated worse than farm animals" Really lol. Are you sure you just don't hate your country ?

Can you stop fucking stereotyping? Half of what I see from you is along of the lines of "xxx hates America" or "Liberals are xxx" or something like that. Srsly.

I am not sure what your reading. I saw  " they get treated worse than farm animals"

and responded to this  bogus and exaggerated statement.  Out of the post, You only can read and focus on.

                     "are you sure you just don't hate your country ? ".

With a statement that is at the least Strero typing itself. Speaks volumes really. Hit a nerve did it ?

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2007-06-03 08:24:23)

zeidmaan, I'm glad you truly took the time to really read my post...NOT. You focus on the number 99 when most people understand what I am saying. I'm not stating 99 percent as a fact. No one here knows how many people may have been put in Gitmo that have been innocent...a very, very small number. My point is that the people who are at Gitmo are there for very serious reasons. Most prisoners of war DO NOT end up here. Only the high value targets and people who are the worst of the worst...do you understand that? So i will not shed one single tear for guys who end up there. Gitmo is not just another jail for any person taken prisoner, this place is like Alcatraz, its where we send the worst to be kept. Sooner that is understood, the better. Also, I am not comparing or lowering any standards by using other countries as examples. Again, you totally miss my point. In fact, people are comparing America every day to the lowest of the low and it gets tiresome to hear that. My point of using those examples is to say that there is a lot worse than America and the way those men are treated at Gitmo is far better than most countries around the world. My last point has always been that there is so much focus on a few mistakes America has made at Gitmo that we forget all the people suffering around the world in much more frightening and horrible situations. It seems that every thread here is either bashing America or Israel. Sometimes its warranted but like I said....take a look around....there is much more in this world that should be looked at. All you need to do is do a search on what is going on in North Korea and its concentration camps, Darfur and the genocide that is going on there and you may someday understand true injustice.

Spark wrote:

imortal wrote:

Ty wrote:

Gitmo is not your average prison, not even your average prison for the worst of the worst.

People are being held and tortured there this fact cannot be disputed. One may say that they get meals and freedom of religion and that's all very hospitable, but torture does occur. As everyone knows torturing prisoners is against the Geneva Convention, but here's an interesting factoid, there are no prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Extremely clever the way they have been declared "enemy combatants", not prisoners, an ingenious way to get round those annoying parts of the Geneva Convention which of course does not say anything about torturing enemy combatants now does it?

Actually, they are held under the title of EPW, Enemy Prisoner of War.  This is a status in the geneva convention.  They are not 'prisoners,' because it is a detainment facility run by the the department of defense, not the department of corrections or justice.

As to how torture is viewed in the Geneva convention, what they do is not to obtain confessions, but to draw information that may be of strategic or tactical use in the current conflict.  And if you think this 'white torture' is seriously bad, you need to get out more.  Pull out the history books.  Look how the inquisition handled people they declared heritics or witches.  Look at the torture inflicted by North Vietnamese on American pilots in Vietnam.  Look at the middle east, how they treat each other as a normal part of business.  American detainment facilities are luxury hotels compared to what many of these people have gone through.

Now, more fun on the Geneva convention.  soldiers involved in hostilities MUST wear an established and recognizable uniform, MUST carry an identification card with that soldiers name, military affiliation, and geneva convention POW catagory (1, 2 or 3.  1 is enlisted, 2 is officer and NCO, 3 is special, such as medics or chaplains).  Failure to follow these means that person captured can be treated as a spy and SHOT OUT OF HAND.  No trial, no detainment, no muss, just a bloodstain and a shallow grave, and it is perfectly legal, so long as they were bearing arms against another countries military.  The French resistance from WW2 had absolutely NO protection under the Geneva Convention.  Spies on either side have NO protection.

This was written into the Geneva convention because it was known even then that the convention only works if both sides are using it.  The entire Geneva convention is based on reciprocity, that if one sides act like decent people, that the other side has to as well.  The results of breaking the geneva convention had to be so horrid that noone would want to break it. 

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/geneva- … rules.html

yes, this is a biased website.  I am aknowledging that right up front.  However, it does raise a very good issue.

So we can maim, torture, and kill everyone they see if they aren't wearing uniforms? Score!

You mean like this?

^{Ten-year-old Zainab Ali, a victim of a mini bus bomb explosion, look on in the Shiite-dominated neighborhood of Amil, Baghdad, Iraq, on Sunday, June 3, 2007. A parked minibus packed with explosives blew up in a busy section of central Baghdad,on Tuesday, May 29, 2007, killing 17 people and injuring 53 others. Zainab, was in her home the time of the blast and is one of many residents made homeless by the bomb attack.}

Unfortunately what our enemies do in their quest for victory isn't even close to what happens at gitmo. When is the last time the International Red Cross visited and IED manufacturing plant? I know, I know... we can't become like them. But how can you fight them when they are not bound by the rules of humanity? No one is advocating killing innocents without discretion. But detaining suspects is nothing even remotely close to the barbaric acts they celebrate in. And in case you hadn't noticed most of them are released after we get information from them or... they go to trial.

It's a dangerous situation that we must not take our eyes off of of course. But we are in a very tough, unique situation.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

I just love it when America does something.....it is always bad and so many jump on the bandwagon just because its "America".

Never saw this posted...guess cause he wasn't an American soldier.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6728473.stm

Last edited by usmarine2005 (2007-06-06 16:41:07)

m3thod wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

I just love it when America does something.....it is always bad and so many jump on the bandwagon just because its "America".

Never saw this posted...guess cause he wasn't an American soldier.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6728473.stm

That cos it was published today at 19:28.

no.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6446649.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international … 11,00.html

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0104-05.htm

http://www.dawn.com/2004/12/17/fea.htm

m3thod wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

m3thod wrote:

That cos it was published today at 19:28.

no.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6446649.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international … 11,00.html

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0104-05.htm

http://www.dawn.com/2004/12/17/fea.htm

Oui.

http://i12.tinypic.com/54lsi9d.jpg

How about the original story?  I know this one was "updated" today.

Last edited by usmarine2005 (2007-06-06 17:18:17)

Didn't think so.

m3thod wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

Didn't think so.

Why don't you think so?  It didn't occur to you it was 1:30am and i was zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?

In answer to your question: I think American brutality makes better bitching contests.

0130?  Come on, you are a young man.

m3thod wrote:

Pissed about till 01:30 too zonked to argue with some geezer across the pond.

...and failed.