Try the Red Cross.............SteikeTa wrote:
Ah, pictures from Guantanamo. That proves everything! Must mean that everything is heaven over there......
Man you people are crazy.
Last edited by usmarine2005 (2007-06-01 09:02:29)
Man you people are crazy.
You probably missed the whole 'white torture' debate.Kmarion wrote:
The International Red Cross makes frequent visits also to check the conditions and health of the Prisoners.SteikeTa wrote:
Ah, pictures from Guantanamo. That proves everything! Must mean that everything is heaven over there......
It was argued that the red cross inspections function as an alibi since 'white torture' is indiscernible through medical examination.
It is highly unlikely that Guantanamo still serves as a camp where 'evil things' happen since it has so much media coverage. There have been reports about detainees being abducted to secret camps in Eastern Europe or being sent to states where 'black torture' is allowed and used (for example Egypt) and Guantanamo being some kind of a showcase.
The whole abduction thing is extremely questionable anyway as the abductions often take place in foreign countries (Iraq does not count as a foreign country since it is an official warzone) and involve foreign citizens which by definition is an act of war against these countries.
Last edited by derstralle (2007-06-01 09:18:37)
not likely. Tactics like waterboarding have been debated here many times. I believe the Senate outlawed that a couple years ago. It was horribly ineffective anyways.derstralle wrote:
You probably missed the whole 'white torture' debate.Kmarion wrote:
The International Red Cross makes frequent visits also to check the conditions and health of the Prisoners.SteikeTa wrote:
Ah, pictures from Guantanamo. That proves everything! Must mean that everything is heaven over there......
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I just love it when America does something.....it is always bad and so many jump on the bandwagon just because its "America". 99 percent of the people who are in Gitmo are there for good reason. Name me ONE country or ONE jail system ANYWHERE where EVERY single person in prison is totally innocent. No country, no justice system and no prison system can claim a perfect record.....NO ONE. I'm sure there are people in prisons all over the world that are innocent. Also, there have been people in every country that probably served years in prison and were innocent. Wow....America sure does have a different standard to live up to. Wake up!!!!
I also read in one of these posts that our guards pissed on the Quran.....um...NO...when did this become fact? This was an accusation by a prisoner and that never happens in prisons outside the U.S. does it....I guess ONLY American prisons have these problems. Give me a break!
Look, Gitmo is not perfect, nor is ANY prison around the world. Every prisoner there has legal representation, has access to medical care. The Red Cross monitors and also has access to the prison and its occupants. Gitmo is monitored more than probably any prison in the world.
Now for the sarcasm.... I'm sure ALL prisoners in Turkey are truly guilty, China has never executed a person that might have been innocent. I'm sure that even Cuba's jails are filled with nobody but the absolute guilty.....no political prisoners there? I'm sure even Canada, Great Britain and countries similar to the United States NEVER make a mistake when it convicts a criminal. Iranian justice system is a model of excellence...nobody innocent there, all those missing students must be having a great time in Club Med. Oh lets not forget the stonings and hangings of people who are guilty of being "gay"..no, nothing like that happens. Oh...Russia, Germany, France have perfect systems too...I'm sure no one has committed suicide or been falsely accused there.
People need to get a fricken clue. Injustice happens EVERYWHERE on a daily basis. Has America detained people that probably shouldn't have....duh...yes, WHO HASN'T. I will say one thing, American prisons (although none of us would want to find out) (or maybe some of you already have) are probably better than most prisons around the world, i use the term "better" lightly here but hopefully you get my point. Gitmo is under a microscope by many international, non biased organizations and we have to keep our noses clean and I'm sure any accusation is taken seriously. Get a clue, NO ONE is immune to making mistakes....NO ONE....seriously, wake the f**k up!
I also read in one of these posts that our guards pissed on the Quran.....um...NO...when did this become fact? This was an accusation by a prisoner and that never happens in prisons outside the U.S. does it....I guess ONLY American prisons have these problems. Give me a break!
Look, Gitmo is not perfect, nor is ANY prison around the world. Every prisoner there has legal representation, has access to medical care. The Red Cross monitors and also has access to the prison and its occupants. Gitmo is monitored more than probably any prison in the world.
Now for the sarcasm.... I'm sure ALL prisoners in Turkey are truly guilty, China has never executed a person that might have been innocent. I'm sure that even Cuba's jails are filled with nobody but the absolute guilty.....no political prisoners there? I'm sure even Canada, Great Britain and countries similar to the United States NEVER make a mistake when it convicts a criminal. Iranian justice system is a model of excellence...nobody innocent there, all those missing students must be having a great time in Club Med. Oh lets not forget the stonings and hangings of people who are guilty of being "gay"..no, nothing like that happens. Oh...Russia, Germany, France have perfect systems too...I'm sure no one has committed suicide or been falsely accused there.
People need to get a fricken clue. Injustice happens EVERYWHERE on a daily basis. Has America detained people that probably shouldn't have....duh...yes, WHO HASN'T. I will say one thing, American prisons (although none of us would want to find out) (or maybe some of you already have) are probably better than most prisons around the world, i use the term "better" lightly here but hopefully you get my point. Gitmo is under a microscope by many international, non biased organizations and we have to keep our noses clean and I'm sure any accusation is taken seriously. Get a clue, NO ONE is immune to making mistakes....NO ONE....seriously, wake the f**k up!
Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2007-06-01 09:41:20)
You rant on about other prisons and how they have non guilty ppl in them. These ppl you talk of have not been tortured to get confessions, have had legal representation and a fair trial. They haven't been snatched off the street and flown to a different country and not allowed to talk to family or their countries consulate.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
I just love it when America does something.....it is always bad and so many jump on the bandwagon just because its "America". 99 percent of the people who are in Gitmo are there for good reason. Name me ONE country or ONE jail system ANYWHERE where EVERY single person in prison is totally innocent. No country, no justice system and no prison system can claim a perfect record.....NO ONE. I'm sure there are people in prisons all over the world that are innocent. Also, there have been people in every country that probably served years in prison and were innocent. Wow....America sure does have a different standard to live up to. Wake up!!!!
....seriously, wake the f**k up!
....seriously, wake the f**k up!
It's getting tougher and tougher to get some sleep around here.JahManRed wrote:
....seriously, wake the f**k up!
Actually their countries of origin are notified.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Is that supposed to help them? Specially when, say, your from the UK, were they just presume your guilty because your partners in this mess say they are.Kmarion wrote:
It's getting tougher and tougher to get some sleep around here.JahManRed wrote:
....seriously, wake the f**k up!
Actually their countries of origin are notified.
Night night....................
Not at all, I was just correcting you with regards to what happens when they are picked up. My rant/view is on the previous page. zzzzJahManRed wrote:
Is that supposed to help them? Specially when, say, your from the UK, were they just presume your guilty because your partners in this mess say they are.Kmarion wrote:
It's getting tougher and tougher to get some sleep around here.JahManRed wrote:
....seriously, wake the f**k up!
Actually their countries of origin are notified.
Night night....................
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Jahman.....zzzzzzzzz....still sleeping i guess. So EVERY person in Gitmo is a choir boy, unjustly snatched from his mother's bosom. Come on...read my post. I said that there are and always will be mistakes made. Remember this, who has proven that anyone was just "snatched from the streets" or actually "tortured". I'm sure it has happened to a degree but like i said 99 percent of those prisoners are there for LEGITIMATE reasons and are there stemming from something very serious. These guys in Gitmo are the WORST of the worst...do you understand that? We will make mistakes from time to time but don't bash America for making the same mistakes that every country makes and will make. Innocent people are in jails as we speak in every part of the world. There have been some very big positive results from info gained in Gitmo and I praise the people working there doing a thankless job. But to portray America as its being portrayed here is just wrong. Again, we are not alone when it comes to making mistakes but I do believe that we do better than most. Okay,,,jahman....go back to sleep now.
they got it better than a soldier during boot camp. id hazard a guess and say that the suicide rates at training battalions are much higher.
Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2007-06-01 10:25:18)
spin it how you like... lol... Big mean US is making nice people into terrorists by keeping them at Gitmo...lol...HunterOfSkulls wrote:
Really, I can't imagine why someone held at Gitmo as a suspected terrorist might develop a grudge against the US, it being such a relaxing vacation destination full of the very spirit of human kindness and all that.[TUF]Catbox wrote:
If you were a prisoner and had to pick... Gitmo or being held by terrorists... which would you pick? Id take my chances with Gitmo and US guards... lol...
Some of the people at Gitmo might be innocent...? I saw that 2 that were released went right back to fighting in Afghanistan... One of the 2 guys claimed he was a doctor who had nothing to do with terrorism or Al Qaeda or the Taliban until they caught him again...
Oh, and you might want to rethink your choice there. I don't imagine an American held at Gitmo would fare very well, considering you'd be looked at as a traitor to your own people whether you actually were or not.
do you really believe that? so naive...
Love is the answer
I do not know what is going on over there. Maybe they are treating them how they should, maybe not. Easy for them to cover up things that should not be known to the public. Right? Pay off someone who inspects..... not saying that they do, but things like that can happen.usmarine2005 wrote:
Try the Red Cross.............SteikeTa wrote:
Ah, pictures from Guantanamo. That proves everything! Must mean that everything is heaven over there......
Man you people are crazy.
Just saying that people should be more open minded about things. Things are not always what it seems. And usmarine, I'm surprised you didn't call me other things besides crazy
One more thing Jahman,
Here is your post: "You rant on about other prisons and how they have non guilty ppl in them. These ppl you talk of have not been tortured to get confessions, have had legal representation and a fair trial. They haven't been snatched off the street and flown to a different country and not allowed to talk to family or their countries consulate."
What world do you live in?????? Are you telling me that torture, unfair trials never happen any where else. That the U.S. is the only country accused of this. WOW!!! Are you telling me that people are never snatched off the streets unless, of course, the U.S. is involved somehow? Hmm...I wonder what the missing Iranian students would say about that or the political prisoners in Cuba would say about unfair trials or the women who are stoned or killed in "Honor" killings...hmmm...Im glad they had a fair trial before they were killed. Or how about all the people who disappear in North Korea and are being held in camps as we speak right now. Where are all the activists and forum posters when it comes to the thousands of people in these camps? Or how about the Taliban and what they did to people because people weren't following their rules....even now it still happens. I could go on and on here. Seriously...it really is amazing how close minded people are to what is going on all over the world.
Ill say this one more time. The men in Gitmo are the WORST of the WORST. 99 percent of these guys are there because they deserve to be there. Have a few been wrongly held...probably but again that happens EVERYWHERE and will always happen in EVERY society on Earth. No country is innocent or immune to these kinds of things. There are many things going on in this world that are far, far, far worse than what is happening it Gitmo. What needs to be done is to look at the world as a whole and take the blinders off because injustice presides on every continent, every country and every society. Some worse than others and some far, far worse than you or I could imagine.
Here is your post: "You rant on about other prisons and how they have non guilty ppl in them. These ppl you talk of have not been tortured to get confessions, have had legal representation and a fair trial. They haven't been snatched off the street and flown to a different country and not allowed to talk to family or their countries consulate."
What world do you live in?????? Are you telling me that torture, unfair trials never happen any where else. That the U.S. is the only country accused of this. WOW!!! Are you telling me that people are never snatched off the streets unless, of course, the U.S. is involved somehow? Hmm...I wonder what the missing Iranian students would say about that or the political prisoners in Cuba would say about unfair trials or the women who are stoned or killed in "Honor" killings...hmmm...Im glad they had a fair trial before they were killed. Or how about all the people who disappear in North Korea and are being held in camps as we speak right now. Where are all the activists and forum posters when it comes to the thousands of people in these camps? Or how about the Taliban and what they did to people because people weren't following their rules....even now it still happens. I could go on and on here. Seriously...it really is amazing how close minded people are to what is going on all over the world.
Ill say this one more time. The men in Gitmo are the WORST of the WORST. 99 percent of these guys are there because they deserve to be there. Have a few been wrongly held...probably but again that happens EVERYWHERE and will always happen in EVERY society on Earth. No country is innocent or immune to these kinds of things. There are many things going on in this world that are far, far, far worse than what is happening it Gitmo. What needs to be done is to look at the world as a whole and take the blinders off because injustice presides on every continent, every country and every society. Some worse than others and some far, far worse than you or I could imagine.
usmarine2005 wrote:
lolBraddock wrote:
physical and psychological hell that is Guantanamo bay.
Gitmo is not your average prison, not even your average prison for the worst of the worst.
People are being held and tortured there this fact cannot be disputed. One may say that they get meals and freedom of religion and that's all very hospitable, but torture does occur. As everyone knows torturing prisoners is against the Geneva Convention, but here's an interesting factoid, there are no prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Extremely clever the way they have been declared "enemy combatants", not prisoners, an ingenious way to get round those annoying parts of the Geneva Convention which of course does not say anything about torturing enemy combatants now does it?
The prison camp is also based in Cuba as everyone knows, why? To get around the oh-so-annoying US Constitution and the Bill of Rights of course, those damn documents which give people rights to a fair trial, Hell, we don't want that, these people are the worst of the worst right? No, damn their rights and damn the US Judiciary too which again operates on a completely different set of rules which we don't want to let the worst of the worst have. So Cuba it is, but there has to be some sort of trial system there right? Well not at the moment, but the Pentagon want to set up a system of Tribunals at Gitmo who will hear cases, which is getting to be a bit more like it in terms of fairness and making sure people get basic human rights. There is a difference with these Tribunals though which makes me believe that they're not being set up simply to give the 'enemy combatants' a fair go. See in these Tribunals 'enemy combatants' can be tried and convicted with evidence that would never be admissible in a normal court, or even a military one. Hearsay, and what Gitmo thrives on - the coerce confession, will be able to be used to put these people away as prisoners for life, or even execute them. Hell, if one prisoner wants to get one up on his cellmate he can tell someone, "yeah my mate here has IEDs planted all over Iraq", that can be used as evidence. All this streamlines the whole process, the US is in a war it can't bother itself with treating people fairly or amassing real evidence against them, takes far too much time and effort.
Guantanamo though, not wanting to sound like the human rights Hell-hole that it is gives reasons for it's actions. It can't afford these people fair trials why? Any testimony, any evidence given is all going to aide the enemy apparently! All the information covered is what the terrorists already know of course, (if perchance an actual terrorist is on trial and perchance a terrorist organisation actually manages to get any information from such a trial,) but we don't want them to know that WE know it. Apparently this is a good enough excuse for people to continue to allow Gitmo to hold and torture people for no reason. America and coalition partners are in a war, they can't afford to give civil liberties to someone who might possibly be a terrorist. They might know that we know what they know! Chaos will ensue!
It's very clever the way that Guantanamo can completely bypass basic human rights like that. Very convenient for them there, I mean who wants to be bothered with the amount of work that's involved in keeping basic human rights? Especially as DeathBecomesYu has mentioned, they're the worst of the worst. The thing is, there is a reason for those rights to a fair trial, it's because in many cases people are innocent. Having fair trials and abiding by the Habeas Corpus Acts we do because it prevents innocent people getting caught, but since Guantanamo does not abide by any of these innocent people are being caught and in many cases tortured. But hey it's all right because eventually they'll confess to whatever they're being accused of, and although a coerce confession is useless to any prosecuting party in a normal court setting, thank God Guantanamo doesn't believe in that nonsense, they can imprison these people anyway. Yes every prison system has a few people held there wrongly, but with Guantanamo it simply doesn't mater if you're guilty or innocent and there is no way of proving either anyway.
As to the suicides which is also convenient for the camp at Guantanamo. These suicides have been given another buzz-word name which gives them power above a usual suicide. They have been dubbed "manipulative self-injurious behavior" - a way for the captives to fight against their captors and the United States. These people aren't committing suicide to spare themselves from the horrors of Guantanamo bay, of course not, far from it, they're committing suicide to get at us, it's all hostile action against us! Once again Guantanamo has justified itself with the use of loopholes and buzzwords.
Guantanamo is ingenious in it's conception, the thinkers behind it have managed to get around almost every single human rights law and also have figured out how to remove themselves from any blame for these episodes of "manipulative self-injurious behaviour" - I think I'll just refer to them as suicides, it's easier to spell. They have managed to make torture acceptable! Prisoners as they are not referred to have no way of defending themselves, no right to be heard, no right to a trial, no right to consult an attorney, and Guantanamo as ingenuous is it is makes this all okay! Incredible. Ingenious.
But hey as bad as it all sounds it's okay. These people are the worst of the worst, how we know that... we'll it's unclear, a lack of trial makes it difficult to determine what these people actually did, if anything. Fear not though, eventually they'll admit to something and hopefully they'll even commit suicide, and since that is their form of asymmetric warfare against us, surely that proves that they deserved to be there in the first place.
Gitmo has done so well in justifying the unjustifiable. I must hire whoever does PR for them.
People are being held and tortured there this fact cannot be disputed. One may say that they get meals and freedom of religion and that's all very hospitable, but torture does occur. As everyone knows torturing prisoners is against the Geneva Convention, but here's an interesting factoid, there are no prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Extremely clever the way they have been declared "enemy combatants", not prisoners, an ingenious way to get round those annoying parts of the Geneva Convention which of course does not say anything about torturing enemy combatants now does it?
The prison camp is also based in Cuba as everyone knows, why? To get around the oh-so-annoying US Constitution and the Bill of Rights of course, those damn documents which give people rights to a fair trial, Hell, we don't want that, these people are the worst of the worst right? No, damn their rights and damn the US Judiciary too which again operates on a completely different set of rules which we don't want to let the worst of the worst have. So Cuba it is, but there has to be some sort of trial system there right? Well not at the moment, but the Pentagon want to set up a system of Tribunals at Gitmo who will hear cases, which is getting to be a bit more like it in terms of fairness and making sure people get basic human rights. There is a difference with these Tribunals though which makes me believe that they're not being set up simply to give the 'enemy combatants' a fair go. See in these Tribunals 'enemy combatants' can be tried and convicted with evidence that would never be admissible in a normal court, or even a military one. Hearsay, and what Gitmo thrives on - the coerce confession, will be able to be used to put these people away as prisoners for life, or even execute them. Hell, if one prisoner wants to get one up on his cellmate he can tell someone, "yeah my mate here has IEDs planted all over Iraq", that can be used as evidence. All this streamlines the whole process, the US is in a war it can't bother itself with treating people fairly or amassing real evidence against them, takes far too much time and effort.
Guantanamo though, not wanting to sound like the human rights Hell-hole that it is gives reasons for it's actions. It can't afford these people fair trials why? Any testimony, any evidence given is all going to aide the enemy apparently! All the information covered is what the terrorists already know of course, (if perchance an actual terrorist is on trial and perchance a terrorist organisation actually manages to get any information from such a trial,) but we don't want them to know that WE know it. Apparently this is a good enough excuse for people to continue to allow Gitmo to hold and torture people for no reason. America and coalition partners are in a war, they can't afford to give civil liberties to someone who might possibly be a terrorist. They might know that we know what they know! Chaos will ensue!
It's very clever the way that Guantanamo can completely bypass basic human rights like that. Very convenient for them there, I mean who wants to be bothered with the amount of work that's involved in keeping basic human rights? Especially as DeathBecomesYu has mentioned, they're the worst of the worst. The thing is, there is a reason for those rights to a fair trial, it's because in many cases people are innocent. Having fair trials and abiding by the Habeas Corpus Acts we do because it prevents innocent people getting caught, but since Guantanamo does not abide by any of these innocent people are being caught and in many cases tortured. But hey it's all right because eventually they'll confess to whatever they're being accused of, and although a coerce confession is useless to any prosecuting party in a normal court setting, thank God Guantanamo doesn't believe in that nonsense, they can imprison these people anyway. Yes every prison system has a few people held there wrongly, but with Guantanamo it simply doesn't mater if you're guilty or innocent and there is no way of proving either anyway.
As to the suicides which is also convenient for the camp at Guantanamo. These suicides have been given another buzz-word name which gives them power above a usual suicide. They have been dubbed "manipulative self-injurious behavior" - a way for the captives to fight against their captors and the United States. These people aren't committing suicide to spare themselves from the horrors of Guantanamo bay, of course not, far from it, they're committing suicide to get at us, it's all hostile action against us! Once again Guantanamo has justified itself with the use of loopholes and buzzwords.
Guantanamo is ingenious in it's conception, the thinkers behind it have managed to get around almost every single human rights law and also have figured out how to remove themselves from any blame for these episodes of "manipulative self-injurious behaviour" - I think I'll just refer to them as suicides, it's easier to spell. They have managed to make torture acceptable! Prisoners as they are not referred to have no way of defending themselves, no right to be heard, no right to a trial, no right to consult an attorney, and Guantanamo as ingenuous is it is makes this all okay! Incredible. Ingenious.
But hey as bad as it all sounds it's okay. These people are the worst of the worst, how we know that... we'll it's unclear, a lack of trial makes it difficult to determine what these people actually did, if anything. Fear not though, eventually they'll admit to something and hopefully they'll even commit suicide, and since that is their form of asymmetric warfare against us, surely that proves that they deserved to be there in the first place.
Gitmo has done so well in justifying the unjustifiable. I must hire whoever does PR for them.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
The Geneva Convention is full of bullshit.
my favorite parts are where it says you cant use shotguns in war, and bullets cant EXPAND!!!!!
craziness, i know......anyway, i dont think the wahabists signed that paperwork.
my favorite parts are where it says you cant use shotguns in war, and bullets cant EXPAND!!!!!
craziness, i know......anyway, i dont think the wahabists signed that paperwork.
If that is the general belief then Americans should stop complaining that their soldiers are being captured, tortured and killed.Parker wrote:
The Geneva Convention is full of bullshit.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
First, we signed that document, and do not treat the people we catch like that. say what you will about waterboarding and having fucking dogs bark at you.....its nothing compared to having your head cut off your body.Ty wrote:
If that is the general belief then Americans should stop complaining that their soldiers are being captured, tortured and killed.Parker wrote:
The Geneva Convention is full of bullshit.
Second, the entire argument you made was started talking about a document that limits bullets expansion.....the very concept of projectiles. you think it might be slightly off in some areas regarding warfare, or would that not fit into the "evil america" theme?
Third.....i want some facts. im tired of looking through this thread and seeing people tell how gitmo is without backing it up.
DeathBecomesYu - mate please stop using made up percentages and for the love of God please stop comparing America with China, Russia, Iran.... If you are better than Iran that still doesn't make you good enough. That seems to be the general problem with most of you. You believe that it doesnt matter how bad you become, as long as you are better than "terrorists". You are lowering your standards and I just cant understand that.
Parker.
I apologise for not referencing my points, most of it was information I mostly picked up in an offshoot from legal study looking into how Guantanamo gets around human rights. However if you look for some of the terms I have used I'm sure you'll find something backing it up on the internet. I used a report from Seton Hall University on detainees at Guantanamo which takes data from the Department of Defence report, (10 July 2006,) which probably can be found on the internet, it was quite useful and backs up a lot of what I have written.
Furthermore, forget the Geneva Convention for a second, my argument shouldn't be based on the fact that I included an example from a document which many consider to be outdated, it is the nature of debate to use sources to their strengths. The Geneva Convention addresses human rights laws which have been ratified by every country who has signed it, so instead of addressing completely irrelevent issues like convention rules on ammuniton and weaponry consider that all the human rights that the US government are ignoring at Guantanamo are outlined in US law as well. Just because their handy little camp in Cuba doesn't need to comply with US law should not mean that the public should be happy for them to get away with it. It's a US institution disregarding US law.
As to the whole suicide v. people cutting soldiers heads off, I am in no way condoning what the terrorists do to captured soldiers, however trying to say that this or being driven to suicide is worse than the other - it's hard to say, none of us have gone through it obviously. Suicide simply means in Guantanamo's case that the are free of any liability. In the DoD report they class the suicides as "assymetrical warefare" and conveniantly they do not have to include these episodes in their Incident Reports.
Guantanamo is a very private institution, little infomation gets out, however it is naive to think that all cases of suicide are because of this "assymetrical warefare". It has been proven that torture DOES occur, officials there have admitted to it since luckily through a series of legal loopholes they cannot be prosecuted for it. They take a very positivist stance stating that information gained from the torture outweighs the torture itself, never mind that information gained under torture is exceedingly unreliable which is why in the first place that coerce confessions are completely disregarded in public law. Don't scoff at 'waterboards and barking dogs', we have only seen very small media leaks of what happens at Guantanamo.
I apologise for not referencing my points, most of it was information I mostly picked up in an offshoot from legal study looking into how Guantanamo gets around human rights. However if you look for some of the terms I have used I'm sure you'll find something backing it up on the internet. I used a report from Seton Hall University on detainees at Guantanamo which takes data from the Department of Defence report, (10 July 2006,) which probably can be found on the internet, it was quite useful and backs up a lot of what I have written.
Furthermore, forget the Geneva Convention for a second, my argument shouldn't be based on the fact that I included an example from a document which many consider to be outdated, it is the nature of debate to use sources to their strengths. The Geneva Convention addresses human rights laws which have been ratified by every country who has signed it, so instead of addressing completely irrelevent issues like convention rules on ammuniton and weaponry consider that all the human rights that the US government are ignoring at Guantanamo are outlined in US law as well. Just because their handy little camp in Cuba doesn't need to comply with US law should not mean that the public should be happy for them to get away with it. It's a US institution disregarding US law.
As to the whole suicide v. people cutting soldiers heads off, I am in no way condoning what the terrorists do to captured soldiers, however trying to say that this or being driven to suicide is worse than the other - it's hard to say, none of us have gone through it obviously. Suicide simply means in Guantanamo's case that the are free of any liability. In the DoD report they class the suicides as "assymetrical warefare" and conveniantly they do not have to include these episodes in their Incident Reports.
Guantanamo is a very private institution, little infomation gets out, however it is naive to think that all cases of suicide are because of this "assymetrical warefare". It has been proven that torture DOES occur, officials there have admitted to it since luckily through a series of legal loopholes they cannot be prosecuted for it. They take a very positivist stance stating that information gained from the torture outweighs the torture itself, never mind that information gained under torture is exceedingly unreliable which is why in the first place that coerce confessions are completely disregarded in public law. Don't scoff at 'waterboards and barking dogs', we have only seen very small media leaks of what happens at Guantanamo.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Define the "torture" they are enduring CURRENTLY down at Gitmo?Ty wrote:
People are being held and tortured there this fact cannot be disputed. One may say that they get meals and freedom of religion and that's all very hospitable, but torture does occur.
What fucking standards? Cold War standards? Vietnam standards? You want people to stop "throwing stuff out there," well I suggest a little more clarity with all this babble. If you know a better way of dealing with religious fanatics who believe in virgins in heaven if they blow themselves up, by all means get off your computer and do it.zeidmaan wrote:
DeathBecomesYu - mate please stop using made up percentages and for the love of God please stop comparing America with China, Russia, Iran.... If you are better than Iran that still doesn't make you good enough. That seems to be the general problem with most of you. You believe that it doesnt matter how bad you become, as long as you are better than "terrorists". You are lowering your standards and I just cant understand that.
So BF2 breaks the Genevea convention, holy shit!Parker wrote:
The Geneva Convention is full of bullshit.
my favorite parts are where it says you cant use shotguns in war, and bullets cant EXPAND!!!!!
craziness, i know......anyway, i dont think the wahabists signed that paperwork.
really ? " they get treated worse than farm animals" Really lol. Are you sure you just don't hate your country ?KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
don't have military uniforms, which means they don't fight properly, which means they aren't gentlemen, which means they get treated worse than farm animals.
Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2007-06-02 08:17:14)
the vast majority were howeverHunterOfSkulls wrote:
The problem is a lot of these folks weren't taken under force of arms and surrendering.
The crime you speak of was committed by the Kidnaper who presented "Heer iz Al Kada ” as an operative, under false pretense for personal vendetta and or monetary gain. The US and its Military have no culpability in this act. I know this is not what you want to hear or desperately believe and further. This will not lesson the hatred many people have for this country. They are deluded in this case.HunterOfSkulls wrote:
Some were kidnapped and sold by Northern Alliance thugs in Afghanistan looking to make some bank off all the money the Coalition is throwing around for people with information on "Al Qaeda operatives" which some seem to interpret as "that jerk Hamish who owes me money" or "that cabdriver over there". This would be a lot more clear-cut if they were being taken in combat, not dumped on the Coalition's doorstep with a note that says "Heer iz Al Kada oprative, send mony pls kthxbye".
As sad as a situation like this would be for the person incarcerated it is nothing in comparison to the things our enemies do as a principle act of their culture alone and Ironically what they would gleefully do to you in particular if you get your wish and America fails. IMHO
Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2007-06-02 08:16:19)