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Not to deny your understanding of Mormonism or perhaps the teachings you've received, weamo8, but I want to post a couple of clarifications to the Mormon theology you espoused ... 

weamo8 wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

If I understand correctly, Mormons believe Jesus is a created being, not God.  Therefore, I would not consider them part of mainstream Christianity.  I don't have access to my books at home on the various religions to say for certain.  Those who are/were Mormons feel free to correct me.

Jesus Christ is God.

Mormon Theology:  Jesus Christ is a God, as is the Holy Spirit, and God the Father  (that's one of the differences with orthodox Christianity).

• "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit:  and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods"  (Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, 6:474)

Mormon Theology:  Jesus Christ was begotten through sexual intercourse between Mary and God the Father.

• "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p. 547).

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Cougar wrote:

Out of all the things stupid people have fallen for, the Mormons rank up there pretty far.

"Yes, let me read my magical text from this hat.  Don't look or it'll disappear!!"

No further out there than Jesus turning water into wine or Moses parting the Red Sea...

Most religions are pretty fucking illogical when you think about it

i would say all.  im not into the supernatural.

my first wife doesn't think they are christians,  but my second and third wives disagree with her.  personally, I dont know.

They are not. Just because they believe in Christ does not make them Christians... as Jesus said, if you don't know the Son, you don't know the Father, and if you don't know the father, you don't have the right God. The Jesus Mormons believe in is not the same as the one Christians believe in. They don't believe in the trinity, first heresy, and they believe Jesus is a created being (as OrangeHound pointed out), second heresy, and they believe Jesus is the brother of the devil, third heresy. If you get the first part wrong, don't even call yourself a Christian.

ATG wrote:

Wrong.
The basic difference in the Mormon thingy is they believe the spiritual level Christ obtained is possible for all.

Um, I understand what you are trying to say, but I think it is overly simplistic.  The basic difference in Mormonism and what is typically called "orthodox" Christianity is that the nature & history of God, the nature and activity of Jesus Christ, the expectations of daily life, the path to a positive afterlife, and the characterization of the afterlife is significantly different.  So, basically, this means that the two are completely different religions.

I realize that Mormons want to be viewed as cousins of other Christians  - or more correctly an advanced/correct form of Christianity - but the two religions are in significant conflict with one another.

ATG wrote:

The trinity, papal asscession and the literal rising from the dead the modern " Christians " teach is that which is the myth. And in that, I agree with both the Masons and the Mormons of which I am niether.

So, in your agnosticism, it appears that you are still considering the nature of God as taught through Mormonism, but have rejected that which is taught through orthodox Christianity (Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern).

ATG wrote:

Cougar wrote:

ATG wrote:

Yes.
I'm a reformed Mormon, been to the Temple and did the Baptism for the Dead.

....................no.   

WTF?

I was born in Utah.
heh, not only WAS I a Mormon, but I'm the son of a polygamist!!!
My grandfather, Albert edmund Barlow was grandson of  Israel Barlow, one of Joseph Smiths personal bodyguards.

You...really...wouldn't belieeve me if I told you how many brothers and sisters I have...LOL!


Albert E. Barlow with three of his wives ( my dad is first row second from left ) just before he spent a total of seven years in prison for the foolishness of practicing his religion.
http://content.lib.utah.edu/cgi-bin/sho … ISOPTR=533


I have always been an agnostic. I have never bought wholly into religion. I am the eldest son of a Utah Polygamist.

There havent been any Mormon polygamists in your lifetime.  The church has been excommunicating polygamist since before you were born.

Rennkasper wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

The second m in mormon is a silent m.

+ 1

Oh definately.  What rapier whit!  I have never heard that one before.

OrangeHound wrote:

ATG wrote:

Wrong.
The basic difference in the Mormon thingy is they believe the spiritual level Christ obtained is possible for all.

Um, I understand what you are trying to say, but I think it is overly simplistic.  The basic difference in Mormonism and what is typically called "orthodox" Christianity is that the nature & history of God, the nature and activity of Jesus Christ, the expectations of daily life, the path to a positive afterlife, and the characterization of the afterlife is significantly different.  So, basically, this means that the two are completely different religions.

I realize that Mormons want to be viewed as cousins of other Christians  - or more correctly an advanced/correct form of Christianity - but the two religions are in significant conflict with one another.

ATG wrote:

The trinity, papal asscession and the literal rising from the dead the modern " Christians " teach is that which is the myth. And in that, I agree with both the Masons and the Mormons of which I am niether.

So, in your agnosticism, it appears that you are still considering the nature of God as taught through Mormonism, but have rejected that which is taught through orthodox Christianity (Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern).

Yeah... they are definatly different in the ways that matter.  I hear other Christians preach love of God and your fellow man and respect and immense gratitude for our Savior Jesus Christ.  Us Mormons worship the devil and stab anyone we come in contact with in the throat.

The only thing I know about Mormons is that they don't drink alcohol. I learnt that from Family Guy. Christians drink alcohol, so.. no!

weamo8 wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

[
Mormon Theology:  Jesus Christ was begotten through sexual intercourse between Mary and God the Father.

• "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p. 547).

Jesus Christ is God in every way that matters, and Mormon Doctrine was written by someone who did not have the right to proclaim what Mormon Doctrine is.

(my mouth is hanging open in disbelief at this statement)

I mean, come on ... do you know your own religion?    Mormon Doctrine was written by Bruce McConkie - he was on the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from  1972 until he died in 1985, and he was on the Council of the Seventy prior to that.  Yes, that's right ... he very specifically is in that role as an Apostle of the church and has EVERY right to speak on behalf of the Mormons, for the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is the authority that articulates Mormon teachings to the non-Mormons.

He's an Apostle dude ... a Mormon apostle is viewed as having the highest authority.

Now, if you are aware of a Mormon authority that has declared McConkie to be a false Mormon Apostle, has rejected the authority of the Mormon Apostles, or  has otherwise explained away his statements, then I would love to hear that.

weamo8 wrote:

P.S. I have definately learned, however, that people in this forum are experts at sounding like experts in areas they truly know nothing about.  Bravo!

Yes, I am an expert. 

But, are you an expert?  Just because one is Mormon doesn't mean that one has clarity on Mormon theology and teachings. 

And, just to be balanced here, most orthodox Christians do not have clarity on orthodox Christian theology and teachings, nor do they understand the differences between orthodox Christianity and Mormonism.  I could go on and on about issues with orthodox Christianity, but this was not a thread on that subject.

weamo8 wrote:

I have to say that I find it interesting that a church whose official name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, whose doctrine from any standpoint is based completely on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and whose teachings are constantly those of trying to be like our Savior is considered non-Christian by most of you.

A cat can call itself a frog, but that doesn't make it a frog.  I think I alluded to this before, but I can be more specific:  "Christianity" holds certain core beliefs that define Christianity ever since the church councils and these are based upon the nature of God the path to connection with Him, and ... yes ... even a different teaching on the Atonement of Jesus Christ (see the Mormon Articles of Faith, pp 478-479).  There are many, many groups that have come along, called themselves "Christian", but they professed something other than these core beliefs.  To protect the core beliefs and to keep the name "Christian" from being diluted, orthodox Christianity has declared these other movements "heretical" and non-Christian.  The vast majority of orthodox Christian leaders declare that Mormonism is NOT Christianity simply because of this distinction.

Now, which is truly "Christian"?  The Mormons or the orthodox?  Both call themselves the same name, but they profess completely different understandings of Christ, God, and the connection with God ... funny, the name "Christian" is the one thing that is similar.

But, I would like to add, I think a higher proportion of Mormons act more "Christian" than most orthodox Christians I meet.

I once visited a mormon church to hear about their religion, and well... they were not sane..

Phrozenbot wrote:

They are not. Just because they believe in Christ does not make them Christians... as Jesus said, if you don't know the Son, you don't know the Father, and if you don't know the father, you don't have the right God. The Jesus Mormons believe in is not the same as the one Christians believe in. They don't believe in the trinity, first heresy, and they believe Jesus is a created being (as OrangeHound pointed out), second heresy, and they believe Jesus is the brother of the devil, third heresy. If you get the first part wrong, don't even call yourself a Christian.

They believe in the trinity insofar as the father, the son and the holy spirit exist...but are not one entity. Makes sense to me...why would Jesus be praying to himself on the cross? And don't forget that protestants are still considered heretics. How the hell are you going to know you have the right church anyway? Some warm, fuzzy feeling in your gut that's probably resultant from fasting on Sundays?

Do you think that God would really care about how people worship him (short of human sacrifice and other such atrocity)?

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-05-18 20:12:53)

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

weamo8 wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

The FLDS are still going strong, and no the church is not excommunicating them.  The church does not agree with their stance on polygamy, but they aren't going out of their way to stop the FLDS from continuing the old ways.

ATG was talking about Mormons, not the FLDS.  That is like saying the Lutherins broke off from the Cathlics so they are the same thing.

Sorry dude, they are one and the same.  The only difference is that the FLDS (Fundamentalist Latter Days Saints) still adhere to the old ways of the LDS faith. 

LDS=Mormon

The FLDS is not affiliated with the LDS. They split off from the mainstream Mormons earlier last century. They have a different leader and everything.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-05-18 20:17:20)