Possessing a shotgun with a shortened barrel justified law enforcement sniping his wife while holding a baby? You're sick, man.Sanjaya wrote:
White separatists. No great loss. Not like they really wanted to be part of America anyway.
m3thod wrote:
Shut up man. Schillinger would kick your ass if he heard you say that.Sanjaya wrote:
White separatists. No great loss. Not like they really wanted to be part of America anyway.
haha! Oz rules!GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … linger.jpgm3thod wrote:
Shut up man. Schillinger would kick your ass if he heard you say that.Sanjaya wrote:
White separatists. No great loss. Not like they really wanted to be part of America anyway.
Adebisi FTW!
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Not that it justified it (nothing would), but failing to appear at a hearing then barricading yourself and family in the woods was a recipe for disaster.Stingray24 wrote:
Possessing a shotgun with a shortened barrel justified law enforcement sniping his wife while holding a baby? You're sick, man.Sanjaya wrote:
White separatists. No great loss. Not like they really wanted to be part of America anyway.
And as to the Waco debacle, if the Branch Davidians had prior knowledge that a raid was going to take place (and they knew they had illegal weapons) then why resist? Unless they were trying to provoke an incident...
He lived in the woods and just wanted to be left alone. Why pester a guy who lives in the woods about one illegal weapon? What a waste of time.
Weaver failed to appear because the date on the letter said March 20, not February 20. In spite of that, the judge declined to withdraw the warrant when he learned that the probation office had sent Weaver a letter with an incorrect trial date. He still declared Weaver a federal fugitive issued an arrest warrant.
The ATF also entrapped Weaver with the original gun charges. An undercover ATF pestered Weaver to sell him shortened shotguns. Weaver refused multiple times using the excuse he couldn't afford to buy the shotguns. But when the ATF agent provided the shotguns to shorten, Weaver gave in. When he sold them back to the agent, he’d broken federal law according to the ATF because they said the barrels were 3/8th inch shorter than the legal length. Weaver insists the barrels were shorted to legal length.
So they entrap the guy, send him a summons with the wrong date, and then when he doesn't show they surround his residence and snipe his family? Tell me, who the hell is in the wrong there?
Waco . . . no matter who it is shooting through your windows, you shoot back. When they bring in tanks and then tell you to come outside would you?
Weaver failed to appear because the date on the letter said March 20, not February 20. In spite of that, the judge declined to withdraw the warrant when he learned that the probation office had sent Weaver a letter with an incorrect trial date. He still declared Weaver a federal fugitive issued an arrest warrant.
The ATF also entrapped Weaver with the original gun charges. An undercover ATF pestered Weaver to sell him shortened shotguns. Weaver refused multiple times using the excuse he couldn't afford to buy the shotguns. But when the ATF agent provided the shotguns to shorten, Weaver gave in. When he sold them back to the agent, he’d broken federal law according to the ATF because they said the barrels were 3/8th inch shorter than the legal length. Weaver insists the barrels were shorted to legal length.
So they entrap the guy, send him a summons with the wrong date, and then when he doesn't show they surround his residence and snipe his family? Tell me, who the hell is in the wrong there?
Waco . . . no matter who it is shooting through your windows, you shoot back. When they bring in tanks and then tell you to come outside would you?
1) Why enforce a law selectively? Why even have laws if that's the case?Stingray24 wrote:
He lived in the woods and just wanted to be left alone. Why pester a guy who lives in the woods about one illegal weapon? What a waste of time.
Weaver failed to appear because the date on the letter said March 20, not February 20. In spite of that, the judge declined to withdraw the warrant when he learned that the probation office had sent Weaver a letter with an incorrect trial date. He still declared Weaver a federal fugitive issued an arrest warrant.
The ATF also entrapped Weaver with the original gun charges. An undercover ATF pestered Weaver to sell him shortened shotguns. Weaver refused multiple times using the excuse he couldn't afford to buy the shotguns. But when the ATF agent provided the shotguns to shorten, Weaver gave in. When he sold them back to the agent, he’d broken federal law according to the ATF because they said the barrels were 3/8th inch shorter than the legal length. Weaver insists the barrels were shorted to legal length.
So they entrap the guy, send him a summons with the wrong date, and then when he doesn't show they surround his residence and snipe his family? Tell me, who the hell is in the wrong there?
Waco . . . no matter who it is shooting through your windows, you shoot back. When they bring in tanks and then tell you to come outside would you?
2) For Weaver's case to be entrapment the ATF would have had to coerce him into altering the weapons (ie threatening to arrest him unless he changed the guns or threatening in some other way to force him to change the guns) then arrest him for doing so. They may have repeatedly asked him to do so to which he may have refused, but once he actually did give in (and there was no evidence of coercion) they had legitimate cause for arrest.
Again, referring to Waco, they knew the ATF was going to raid and had an illegal stockpile of weapons, but why prepare a violent response? Protecting criminal activity is the only rational explanation...they don't seem to think that the laws apply to them.
HE. DIDN'T. WANT. TO. BE. PART. OF. AMERICA.Stingray24 wrote:
Possessing a shotgun with a shortened barrel justified law enforcement sniping his wife while holding a baby? You're sick, man.Sanjaya wrote:
White separatists. No great loss. Not like they really wanted to be part of America anyway.
So fuck him.
I'd say the same about you, I guess.Sanjaya wrote:
HE. DIDN'T. WANT. TO. BE. PART. OF. AMERICA.Stingray24 wrote:
Possessing a shotgun with a shortened barrel justified law enforcement sniping his wife while holding a baby? You're sick, man.Sanjaya wrote:
White separatists. No great loss. Not like they really wanted to be part of America anyway.
So fuck him.
Why? Because I don't really care that some racist hick who thought america was being ruined by the "coloreds" and wanted to peace out because of it got his family shot up?ATG wrote:
I'd say the same about you, I guess.Sanjaya wrote:
HE. DIDN'T. WANT. TO. BE. PART. OF. AMERICA.Stingray24 wrote:
Possessing a shotgun with a shortened barrel justified law enforcement sniping his wife while holding a baby? You're sick, man.
So fuck him.
I'm not too concerned about that shit happening to me or most normal people. Being dragged off because you're an enemy of the Bush regime is far more likely.
Like HoS pointed out, many of the redneck dumb fucks who blindly support Bush and the Patriot cry about the massacre at Waco.Sanjaya wrote:
Why? Because I don't really care that some racist hick who thought america was being ruined by the "coloreds" and wanted to peace out because of it got his family shot up?ATG wrote:
I'd say the same about you, I guess.Sanjaya wrote:
HE. DIDN'T. WANT. TO. BE. PART. OF. AMERICA.
So fuck him.
I'm not too concerned about that shit happening to me or most normal people. Being dragged off because you're an enemy of the Bush regime is far more likely.
Similarly, you make a good example of somebody, obviously wholly ignorant of the facts, is willing to dismiss the deaths of a combined 300 people ( Waco and Oklahoma ) because it happened under your guy.
You cite the likelihood of being dragged of by the Bush administration, and scoff at and belittle the fact that federal agents burned, shot and ran over with tanks citizens.
Pretty despicable.
Who said Clinton was my guy? These people did not want to be part of American society. Instead of leaving, they wanted to stay here and do things their way, which often times came in conflict with the law. Like when you decide to start shooting at tanks that are there because you and your cult members were being jackasses anyway. They may have been citizens, but Koresh and his "disciples" just weren't playing by the rules. They suffered the consequences.ATG wrote:
Like HoS pointed out, many of the redneck dumb fucks who blindly support Bush and the Patriot cry about the massacre at Waco.Sanjaya wrote:
Why? Because I don't really care that some racist hick who thought america was being ruined by the "coloreds" and wanted to peace out because of it got his family shot up?ATG wrote:
I'd say the same about you, I guess.
I'm not too concerned about that shit happening to me or most normal people. Being dragged off because you're an enemy of the Bush regime is far more likely.
Similarly, you make a good example of somebody, obviously wholly ignorant of the facts, is willing to dismiss the deaths of a combined 300 people ( Waco and Oklahoma ) because it happened under your guy.
You cite the likelihood of being dragged of by the Bush administration, and scoff at and belittle the fact that federal agents burned, shot and ran over with tanks citizens.
Pretty despicable.
The world's probably a better place without the Branch Davidians.
As for Oklahoma, McVeigh was a degenerate who threw in with their ilk. It's a shame that people had to suffer because of him.
Sorry ATG, we part company here. When you are asked to "halt" by a cop, you stop, not run.ATG wrote:
This should be a big deal to the American people.
It makes me sad that it is not.
When you see flashing lights in your rear view mirror, you pull over, not go faster.
When you are asked to produce personal info, you oblige, you do not lip off.
When you are asked to come out with your hands up, for 13 frickin days, you do so, not barricade yourself in.
When you see your children are posed to be in a dangerous crossfire, you do not stay for the stand-off and see what happens, you surrender and get your kids out of harms way.
I wonder how many people would still be alive if they had complied with law enforcements commands and come out with their hands up. Did they really think that Koresh ( Jesus Christ) was really going to win that stand-off??
Bottom line here is, you have got to respect authority, the court of law will vindicate you if you are in the right. No way should the message be, flaunt authority as you see fit. Same lesson Randy Weaver could have heeded and maybe his son and wife would still be alive.
I am no way saying, the govt. is always right. I am saying fight the govt. in court with the law, and public opinion as your weapon, not in the streets with guns, for you will ALWAYS loose.
Last edited by lowing (2007-04-15 21:10:07)
When law enforcement comes in shooting, they lose all right to be honored and respected. On that day, a line was crossed and they became the enemy.
You know I dig you Lowing, and this may be the first time we have ever fundamentally disagreed.
You need to see Waco: Rules of Engagement; I can tell you have only been exposed to the governments side of things. The evidence is so grossly overwhelming, it's not even debatable.
They are guilt of heinous murder. Butchery, arson and any number of laws were broken during that event.
It wasn't even remotely comparable to a traffic stop.
You know I dig you Lowing, and this may be the first time we have ever fundamentally disagreed.
You need to see Waco: Rules of Engagement; I can tell you have only been exposed to the governments side of things. The evidence is so grossly overwhelming, it's not even debatable.
They are guilt of heinous murder. Butchery, arson and any number of laws were broken during that event.
It wasn't even remotely comparable to a traffic stop.
Waiting 2 weeks trying to talk them out before making a move is hardly going in with guns blazing. The picture you are painting in your posts is the govt. gave them 5 seconds to come out then open fired. You know this is not the case. They ALL had their chances to come out peacefully, they refused. No way will the police loose a stand-off, ever.ATG wrote:
When law enforcement comes in shooting, they lose all right to be honored and respected. On that day, a line was crossed and they became the enemy.
You know I dig you Lowing, and this may be the first time we have ever fundamentally disagreed.
You need to see Waco: Rules of Engagement; I can tell you have only been exposed to the governments side of things. The evidence is so grossly overwhelming, it's not even debatable.
They are guilt of heinous murder. Butchery, arson and any number of laws were broken during that event.
It wasn't even remotely comparable to a traffic stop.
In my opinion, the line was crossed by the Branch Dividians, when they flaunted authority and refused to come out when commanded to do so. Would you barracade yourself in your house when the police commanded you to come out? Especially with your kids in there with you?? Do you really think that is a scenerio you would ever win??
Because I love you, I can't talk about Waco anymore with you.lowing wrote:
Waiting 2 weeks trying to talk them out before making a move is hardly going in with guns blazing. The picture you are painting in your posts is the govt. gave them 5 seconds to come out then open fired. You know this is not the case. They ALL had their chances to come out peacefully, they refused. No way will the police loose a stand-off, ever.ATG wrote:
When law enforcement comes in shooting, they lose all right to be honored and respected. On that day, a line was crossed and they became the enemy.
You know I dig you Lowing, and this may be the first time we have ever fundamentally disagreed.
You need to see Waco: Rules of Engagement; I can tell you have only been exposed to the governments side of things. The evidence is so grossly overwhelming, it's not even debatable.
They are guilt of heinous murder. Butchery, arson and any number of laws were broken during that event.
It wasn't even remotely comparable to a traffic stop.
In my opinion, the line was crossed by the Branch Dividians, when they flaunted authority and refused to come out when commanded to do so. Would you barracade yourself in your house when the police commanded you to come out? Especially with your kids in there with you?? Do you really think that is a scenerio you would ever win??
You are uninformed about the subject, and it is pissing me off.
Is there something IN MY POST that is factually incorrect?? Bare with me ATG, I already lost Cameronpoe, I could not bare it if you abandoned me as well. especially in the same month.ATG wrote:
Because I love you, I can't talk about Waco anymore with you.lowing wrote:
Waiting 2 weeks trying to talk them out before making a move is hardly going in with guns blazing. The picture you are painting in your posts is the govt. gave them 5 seconds to come out then open fired. You know this is not the case. They ALL had their chances to come out peacefully, they refused. No way will the police loose a stand-off, ever.ATG wrote:
When law enforcement comes in shooting, they lose all right to be honored and respected. On that day, a line was crossed and they became the enemy.
You know I dig you Lowing, and this may be the first time we have ever fundamentally disagreed.
You need to see Waco: Rules of Engagement; I can tell you have only been exposed to the governments side of things. The evidence is so grossly overwhelming, it's not even debatable.
They are guilt of heinous murder. Butchery, arson and any number of laws were broken during that event.
It wasn't even remotely comparable to a traffic stop.
In my opinion, the line was crossed by the Branch Dividians, when they flaunted authority and refused to come out when commanded to do so. Would you barracade yourself in your house when the police commanded you to come out? Especially with your kids in there with you?? Do you really think that is a scenerio you would ever win??
You are uninformed about the subject, and it is pissing me off.
Oh Lowing, I would never do that.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCH … /waco.html
Q and A from the film makers
*edit
I apologize to any insulted members and LE on this site, but it's how I feel.
( don't fucking click that link if you are sensitive! there are gross pictures of victims !!! )lowing wrote:
Waiting 2 weeks trying to talk them out before making a move is hardly going in with guns blazing.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCH … /waco.html
http://archive.salon.com/april97/waco970418.htmllowing wrote:
The picture you are painting in your posts is the govt. gave them 5 seconds to come out then open fired.
Q and A from the film makers
http://www.gunowners.org/op0121.htmlowing wrote:
You know this is not the case. They ALL had their chances to come out peacefully, they refused. No way will the police loose a stand-off, ever.
If the police came to my door in the same manner as they did at Mount Carmel, I would react it the same manner as the Davidians, whatever the cost, I would take as many of them with me as possible.lowing wrote:
In my opinion, the line was crossed by the Branch Dividians, when they flaunted authority and refused to come out when commanded to do so. Would you barracade yourself in your house when the police commanded you to come out? Especially with your kids in there with you?? Do you really think that is a scenerio you would ever win??
*edit
I apologize to any insulted members and LE on this site, but it's how I feel.
Last edited by ATG (2007-04-15 23:31:39)
Not a bad point but, the way they did it was designed to instigate a confrontation. The ATF wanted a fight.Varegg wrote:
Why didn`t they get them away from the compound ?
Isn`t that pretty clear ? ..... it`s easier to detain people confined to a restricted area and that`s a fairly common practice both in the police and the millitary - it`s way harder and takes way more resourses to detain a group of people in different locations !
I`m not familiar with the backround story so i`ll be careful to comment on that but a fair guess is after hearing/reading/watching similar incidents is that instigating a confrontation is a practice used to "rid" themself of long time problems to society !ATG wrote:
Not a bad point but, the way they did it was designed to instigate a confrontation. The ATF wanted a fight.Varegg wrote:
Why didn`t they get them away from the compound ?
Isn`t that pretty clear ? ..... it`s easier to detain people confined to a restricted area and that`s a fairly common practice both in the police and the millitary - it`s way harder and takes way more resourses to detain a group of people in different locations !
And if that`s the case it`s definately the wrong way to do it imho allthough i can understand their motives for such actions
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
And what? You didn't bother to actually click on it yourself and read it? Or better yet, click the link at the bottom of the article for the main site, which displays a huge "White Pride World Wide" logo? That's a bit lazy, don't you think?Stingray24 wrote:
Feel free to find another source, HunterofSkulls, there’s plenty more. I had no previous knowledge of Stormfront, simply posted the first link on the long list.
I wasn't disputing it at all. I stated pretty plainly that the feds went overboard at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Perhaps you should have bothered to read through your first link and then go with the others.Stingray24 wrote:
Are you disputing the fact that a woman was sniped while holding a baby? Good luck with that. Here's a couple for your reading pleasure.
No, Ashcroft and Gonzales haven't overseen large actions like Waco. They have arrested and detained thousands of people with little to no evidence, held them for years with no access to legal counsel and no communication with friends or family; Gonzales has declared the Geneva Conventions that are also supposed to protect our soldiers are "quaint" and claimed that Americans aren't actually guaranteed the right of habeus corpus by the Constitution. The feds now have even more power to kick your doors in with guns blazing than they did before, but because they haven't actually done it yet, it's mostly ignored or excused. Good plan. And you wonder why I'm seeing the selective outrage of the right here; where as long as the government is mobilizing itself against the correct people, the right doesn't give a damn and in most cases will actually cheer them on.Stingray24 wrote:
Waco and Ruby Ridge did have jackbooted law enforcement on display. Nothing remotely similar under Ashcroft or Gonzales. Oh and prosecute the pedos anytime. Next time just try not to burn down the building around them killing innocent people who have committed no crime.
I don't think our government should be in the business of summarily executing people, even if it is people I despise and who would gladly see the government summarily execute me. I just want to know why the outrage is so conditional and so currently absent. I'd rather see it before another Waco.
Speaking of horrible ham-handedness, Nice try with race baiting.GorillaTicTacs wrote:
If it happened under Clinton's watch and the victims were good god-fearing white folk, then it was a horrible ham-handed tragedy committed by our government. .
Quite a few of the Branch Davidian were black.
This was kinda hushed up by the bias media becuase we couldnt have bill clinton resposable for burning alive the congergation of black women & children in a churh.
Of course he massacerd an unknown amount of blacks in somolia becuase.... ?
or burned alive, Um lets see, yea I prefer to be arrested nine times out of ten.arrested and detained
Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2007-04-16 06:17:59)
Ok, I'm demanding sources on this one, preferably non-Stormfront or similar. While I can buy blacks being part of the Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist Church, being part of the Koresh cult you're gonna have to prove. Otherwise you're talking out of your ass.Hunter/Jumper wrote:
Speaking of horrible ham-handedness, Nice try with race baiting.GorillaTicTacs wrote:
If it happened under Clinton's watch and the victims were good god-fearing white folk, then it was a horrible ham-handed tragedy committed by our government. .
Quite a few of the Branch Davidian were black.
This was kinda hushed up by the bias media becuase we couldnt have bill clinton resposable for burning alive the congergation of black women & children in a churh.
Of course he massacerd an unknown amount of blacks in somolia becuase.... ?or burned alive, Um lets see, yea I prefer to be arrested nine times out of ten.arrested and detained
ofcoourse he was a seperatist. How dare he want to be alone. Kill him. The duplicity of these people never ceases to astound me.Stingray24 wrote:
Possessing a shotgun with a shortened barrel justified law enforcement sniping his wife while holding a baby? You're sick, man.Sanjaya wrote:
White separatists. No great loss. Not like they really wanted to be part of America anyway.
It was glossed over as a simple "raid against an armed compound," same as the events at Ruby Ridge. I guess if we all disarmed ourselves, we'd have nothing to fear from our government. I don't condone the Oklahoma City Bombing (it was an evil thing to do), but it did give that administration pause.ATG wrote:
This should be a big deal to the American people.
It makes me sad that it is not.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-04-16 07:28:24)
watch " rules of engagmet " and mouthSanjaya wrote:
Ok, I'm demanding sources on this one, preferably non-Stormfront or similar. While I can buy blacks being part of the Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist Church, being part of the Koresh cult you're gonna have to prove. Otherwise you're talking out of your ass.Hunter/Jumper wrote:
Speaking of horrible ham-handedness, Nice try with race baiting.GorillaTicTacs wrote:
If it happened under Clinton's watch and the victims were good god-fearing white folk, then it was a horrible ham-handed tragedy committed by our government. .
Quite a few of the Branch Davidian were black.
This was kinda hushed up by the bias media becuase we couldnt have bill clinton resposable for burning alive the congergation of black women & children in a churh.
Of course he massacerd an unknown amount of blacks in somolia becuase.... ?or burned alive, Um lets see, yea I prefer to be arrested nine times out of ten.arrested and detained
Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2007-04-16 07:31:06)