BF2S Forums Israel Won't Deal with the New Palestinian Government

Kmarion wrote:

Charter of Hamas.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Hamas's charter calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic Republic in place of Israel.

Doesn't exactly sound like they recognize Israel.

Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.  “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”

I am starting to get pissed. How dare they say those things. They sound like terrorists.

But they will pay.

American TV sets see very little Israeli/Palestinian conflict actually.

Kmarion wrote:

Charter of Hamas.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Hamas's charter calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic Republic in place of Israel.

Doesn't exactly sound like they recognize Israel.

Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.  “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”

Look man, this religious rhetoric is spouted by a few top men, they don't speak for the whole nation and the whole country shouldn't be subjected to oppression over a few top mens rants in the past. Yeah they voted them in, but so was Bush by the smallest majority, or minority as he had less votes.   Bush has come out with statements which are equally as offensive to me due to the obvious idiocy of the man who can then subject other world leaders to scrutiny over their statements. They might be threatening taken in various contexts, but at least they are coherent.

I live in a deeply divided bigoted country. I am a Catholic/nationalist and the head of the largest political party in my country, the man who is going to be our first minister/president is on record many times saying that the Pope is the anti Christ and his followers worship the anti Christ. So he is in effect calling 45% of the population Satan worshipers if I wished to contrive it that way. He is also on record as saying that he intends to destroy Catholicism in Northern Ireland. Some of my best friends have voted for him, thats their choice. I don't condemn them for it. Ive met the guy 4 times and shock his hand each time. I hate what he stands for, but in this kind of conflict you have to talk to and respect your 'enemy's' views to move forward. You also got to respect a citizens right to be misled by right wing politicians.
This constant tit for tat, frankly childish meandering that all parties, Israeli and Palestinian are up to is bury your head in the sand, na na na na na shit for fear of offending the far right. Center ground needs to be created and thats not going to happen until they all sit down and talk.

Kmarion wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Charter of Hamas.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Hamas's charter calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic Republic in place of Israel.

Doesn't exactly sound like they recognize Israel.

Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.  “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”

Look man, this religious rhetoric is spouted by a few top men, they don't speak for the whole nation and the whole country shouldn't be subjected to oppression over a few top mens rants in the past. Yeah they voted them in, but so was Bush by the smallest majority, or minority as he had less votes.   Bush has come out with statements which are equally as offensive to me due to the obvious idiocy of the man who can then subject other world leaders to scrutiny over their statements. They might be threatening taken in various contexts, but at least they are coherent.

I live in a deeply divided bigoted country. I am a Catholic/nationalist and the head of the largest political party in my country, the man who is going to be our first minister/president is on record many times saying that the Pope is the anti Christ and his followers worship the anti Christ. So he is in effect calling 45% of the population Satan worshipers if I wished to contrive it that way. He is also on record as saying that he intends to destroy Catholicism in Northern Ireland. Some of my best friends have voted for him, thats their choice. I don't condemn them for it. Ive met the guy 4 times and shock his hand each time. I hate what he stands for, but in this kind of conflict you have to talk to and respect your 'enemy's' views to move forward. You also got to respect a citizens right to be misled by right wing politicians.
This constant tit for tat, frankly childish meandering that all parties, Israeli and Palestinian are up to is bury your head in the sand, na na na na na shit for fear of offending the far right. Center ground needs to be created and thats not going to happen until they all sit down and talk.

Hamas as the elected leaders do speak for the entire nation when talking in terms of peace agreements. I simply posted their organizations stated goal to perhaps better understand why Israel is reluctant to deal with the new Government. It doesn't take much to understand why. Unfortunately when the "whole nation and the whole country" get together and decide to put these people in charge the have promoted a course less likely to encourage peace. I don't think Charles Manson represents the entire American people but we didn't put him in charge of making the policy of our nation.

And if JahManReds logic is followed to its end then Europe should not blame America for the action of the President.

It just doesn't work like that. The people voted for Hamas: that means they accept them as their spokespeople. They chant death to Israel/America in the streets. I see no difference whatsoever between the pallestinian citizens chanting death to America and the masked fanatics sawing heads off on camera.


They have proven themselves  pretty unable to govern.


Kind of like the Republicans here in Merica.

Last edited by ATG (2007-03-17 09:09:23)

ATG wrote:

Kind of like the Republicans here in Merica.

Minus the openly stated goal of obliterating nations and intentional targeting of civlians. I was waiting for the inevitable "you did elect Charles Manson" ..

By "wrong way" Noam undoubtedly means electing a known terrorist organization. This is not to say don't cooperate with peace, but rather to question the intentions of those who are preaching to wipe you out. If Jews have learned anything from the past it is when someone pledges to kill you, believe them.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-03-17 09:39:20)

Although not a fan of Hamas I would like to take issue with Kmarion's selective reading of the charter of Hamas.

First off, please read the following policies of Hamas with respect to Judaism:

"Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected."

"Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."

However - they contradictorily seem to adopt anti-semitic stances from time to time and it is easy to find quotes corroborating this.

Article 31 - Hamas Covenant wrote:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

Here it is stating that the rights of other religious groups will be preserved within the Islamic Republic they wish to establish in Palestine, exactly the same way as which they are successfully preserved in Iran (believe it or not). They see the state established by Zionazi immigrants, a state I believe the Zionazis had no right to establish, as illegal and wish to oust them and establish their state in its place. If the people of a particular region want to establish an Islamic republic then so be it - that's their choice (as long as it is not imposed by a minority on a majority). I see nothing wrong with their stated goal in the context of 1948 (developments since then have changed things considerably however) - I take issue with the ways and means by which they conduct themselves and their war. They do not practice what they preach.

For the record I lean towards Fatah policy - Hamas are an abysmal organisation.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-17 09:45:48)

I thought we had all already agreed with my point that this is stupid to talk about... they will NEVER work together, let them kill each other all they want.

ATG wrote:

And if JahManReds logic is followed to its end then Europe should not blame America for the action of the President.

I don't blame the American people for Bushes decisions

JahManRed wrote:

You also got to respect a citizens right to be misled by right wing politicians.

Which you have been IMO. He rigged the first vote and used the war and plenty of spin to get himself re-elected. I respect peoples right to be misled by spin and all this support your commander and chef shit, no matter how wrong he is. I see it happen here in my own country.

ATG wrote:

It just doesn't work like that. The people voted for Hamas: that means they accept them as their spokespeople. They chant death to Israel/America in the streets.

The people voted Hamas in because they have been banging their head against a brick wall for years every other way. When the situation is so extreme, extreme solutions and the ones who promise to deliver them become very attracted to a people who are suppressed and removed from their land. ATG, you complain about what Mexicans are doing to your way of life. Like your part of the world is being invaded slowly and American citizens in your area are struggling. At least your in some way protected. If Mexico took back Texas because a 2000 year old book said they once owned it and have a claim over it would you after 60 years living in a slum try some extreme ways of getting your land and self esteem back? Maybe vote for some people who promise to get it back even if they did say they were going to destroy your invaders and suppressors Mexico? Some of your past statements have lent that way. I'm just asking you to put yourself in their shoes and try and block out of your mind for a second the blatantly bias to Israels cause, US media and government and see it from an ordinary Palestinians view.

ATG wrote:

I see no difference whatsoever between the pallestinian citizens chanting death to America and the masked fanatics sawing heads off on camera.

What because a people who's land is occupied contrary to international law have grievances with their occupiers and their financiers and want to express it? I suppose you agree with beating American anti war campaigners of THEIR streets so Bush and is motorcade don't have to see them? There is no comparison between fanatics seeking power and ethnic cleansing and a peoples trying desperately to regain their land.
The media always shows the crowd of people chanting death to Israel and America but you never see footage of the children blown to bits from 20 000 feet 20min's earlier by an American made, Israeli commanded and piloted F 18 which brought the people onto the streets in the first place. This propaganda is then used to justify Israels actions. Ever seen the footage of Israeli 5 year olds righting messages of hate on bombs which are to be dropped on Palestinian towns and villages killing Palestinian 5 years olds? It works both ways although few Americans will admit it.Its always poor poor Isreal.
If you care to admit it or not, to you Israeli blood is much more precious than Palestinian blood and thats what it boils down to.

ATG wrote:

They have proven themselves  pretty unable to govern.

Govern what? Everything about their government is controlled. How can any nation form a stable government when movement, imports, exports and basic human rights are restricted? Half the people want to follow a more center left path the other want to go far right as they are still after all this time living under occupation and look to the people with supposed solutions to desperate peoples problems.

ATG wrote:

Kind of like the Republicans here in Merica.

This is a typical statement and could go either way. America is becoming more and more factionized and polarized. People in a normal democracy don't wear their political beliefs on their shoulders like Americans are increasingly doing. Not much difference to the two opposing parties in Palestine except you guys aren't under occupation and have a stable country with law and a government to enforce it.

UGADawgs wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

We have a brand new government, it won't recognise Israel, it won't renounce terror, it won't accept any of the former treaties, and that means that basically they're accepting the guidelines of the exact same Hamas government that we've had in the Palestinian Authority for the last year," she said.

I like the part where Israel talks about itself "it won't renounce terror, it won't accept any of the former treaties".

"Israeli spokeswoman Miri Eisen told the BBC there had been no movement on demands for the new Palestinian government to recognise Israel and renounce violence.

"We have a brand new government, it won't recognise Israel, it won't renounce terror, it won't accept any of the former treaties, and that means that basically they're accepting the guidelines of the exact same Hamas government that we've had in the Palestinian Authority for the last year," she said. "

It's obvious that she's referring to the Palestinian government. The Israelis wouldn't claim that their own government won't recognize itself. If you're going to try and smear Israel through out-of-context quotes, at least do a decent job of it.

I forgot the /sarcasm for those like you who don't understand it.  It's obvious that she's referring to Palestine, but it sounded like Israel.

Last edited by sergeriver (2007-03-17 11:45:14)

Skorpy-chan wrote:

This ain't gonna be solved until one side invades and finishes things completely, or they
turn the middle east into a glowing radioactive wasteland.

Agreed...

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Skorpy-chan wrote:

This ain't gonna be solved until one side invades and finishes things completely, or they
turn the middle east into a glowing radioactive wasteland.

Agreed...

Failure only happens when people quit trying. There are millions of people suffering every single day in that region. It is a fine line between pessimism and delusion but we must always try to have faith in the good in people. Try and remember that the majority of the pain and turmoil there is caused by the actions of a few. It only takes a couple bad apples to ruin the pie. Hope and chance have sustained humanity for 650 thousand years. Imagine what our ancestors were feeling during the great wars. They did not accept annihilation, neither should we. We must force ourselves to be optimistic although I know it is challenging.

Well, my take on what you've said is that Israel and the Muslims need to be more cooperative and optimistic with each other.  We don't belong in this conflict.

Kmarion wrote:

Vilham wrote:

I thought we had all already agreed with my point that this is stupid to talk about... they will NEVER work together, let them kill each other all they want.

I say the United States just give the Jews Puerto Rico and be done with it..

lol wtf?

I hope this wasn't in the least bit serious, but in case it was....wow..haha I'm at a lost of words how you can offer up a country much like Palestine to the "Jews" and not some how see the parallel to what was done in 1948 in Palestine.