Without maths we wouldn't be much better than cavemen.
Mathematics is more than numbers; it hones rationality and your ability to think systematically over any problem. I think that's one of the reasons why some societies are still at stone-age level while others (like us) are space-age. I'm pretty convinced a society is only as advanced as its insight in mathematics.
This is a double-edged question, whereas: a) Innate universal presence; b) Human understanding. Therefore:Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
I don't know if this is considered 'serious' debate but here goes.
1) Do you think that humans could live without mathematics?
2) And did humans create mathematics?
My co-worker claims that math is unimportant for our existence... and that everything we have now could eventually have been obtained/created/invented without math. (He's a philosophy guy)
To me it's obvious that humans would not be anything without any math (note: counting is math)
1. a) No.
1. b) Yes.
2. a) No.
2. b) Yes.
I picked up a rock and broke it in half on another rock. It was sparkly inside. Now it's a decoration. No math as far as human understanding is concerned was needed, but the innate presence of mathematics in our world was.Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
there is NOTHING that we have now that could have been created without some form of math.
He needs to practice his philosophy. It would be impossible to have a math book without math. As math books are a subset of "everything we have," I have effectively countered his statement in one of the most blunt manners possible.Ender2309 wrote:
no, what he is is a staggering, blatant, ignorant idiot.Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
My co-worker claims that math is unimportant for our existence... and that everything we have now could eventually have been obtained/created/invented without math. (He's a philosophy guy)
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-03-16 01:19:30)
Yes we do need maths for oh so many reasons.
On an interesting side note, do you think if we had evolved with 12 finger and toes we'd be using base 12 for maths instead of base 10. ie. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,x,y,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,1x,1y,20 and so on.
On an interesting side note, do you think if we had evolved with 12 finger and toes we'd be using base 12 for maths instead of base 10. ie. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,x,y,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,1x,1y,20 and so on.
Yeah, stab the mathematicians.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
We had sharp objects before we had maths.CommieChipmunk wrote:
eh, yeah.. we need math. Our buildings would fall over, how would money work? Ratios, proportions it's all part of modern day life. Without it, we probably wouldn't have computers...
I guess you could argue that it's "unimportant" for our existence, but that existence would consist of hunting with blunt objects..
Without math you would not be typing on a computer, driving a car, eating things you didn't grow, earning a monetary living, etc. Your friend is into philosophy to a point where reality has gone out the window, math created the pyramids, helped us plan for intercontinental voyages, mapped the globed, and provided the statistical knowledge to support our world today. I still hate doing it tho.
1. no (define living)
2. no
2. no
Last edited by herrr_smity (2007-03-16 14:16:18)
A species can live without computers, cars, money or an active understanding of mathematics. An individual can also eat something he didn't grow without the benefit of math. However, as mentioned above, without math at its most basic level, the universe could not exist.liquix wrote:
Without math you would not be typing on a computer, driving a car, eating things you didn't grow, earning a monetary living, etc. Your friend is into philosophy to a point where reality has gone out the window, math created the pyramids, helped us plan for intercontinental voyages, mapped the globed, and provided the statistical knowledge to support our world today. I still hate doing it tho.
So, to once again build off of an early reply: yes and no.
As my ancestry would've evolved without the benefit of technologies, then yes. I'd have to say that if my species still existed, I could live. Who knows? Maybe we'd all have fangs. lolEnzzenmachine wrote:
Basically without maths, technologies wouldn't exist.
could you live with no technologies ?
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-03-16 14:29:37)
Basically without maths, technologies wouldn't exist.
could you live with no technologies ?
could you live with no technologies ?
thats mathunnamednewbie13 wrote:
broke it in half
you realize you have to make fragments (fractions) to get the middle.
If humans didn't have math, we'd be dumber than monkeys.
Not saying math makes us smart.... but if we were so dumb that we couldn't comprehend quantity (among other things) then we would be nothing.
Not saying math makes us smart.... but if we were so dumb that we couldn't comprehend quantity (among other things) then we would be nothing.
Sorry, but just how exactly does "Human genetic... ...evidence clearly demonstrate that we had a sense of quantity"?Marinejuana wrote:
No it is much more than speculation. Human genetic and archaeological evidence clearly demonstrates that we had a sense of quantity long before we ever used a tool. Look it up. You may be speculating, but I am just passing on things I've learned in anthro classes.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
I beg to differ. But unfortunately we can't go back and find out for sure, so it's just gonna be pure speculation on either side...Marinejuana wrote:
Yeah, thats incorrect, we started using tools well after we were using our knowledge of quantity. I don't believe we could have been decent hunter gatherers without being able to ration food and estimate yields of different resources.
And on the question of archaeological evidence - archaeology can tell us many many truths about our past, but one thing it can only ever speculate upon is what we were like as people - questions of how we thought about and perceived the world are beyond its scope - a chard of pottery tells you nothing about the person that made the pot (yes, that is a very extreme example, but the same principle applies to the whole of archaeology).
1) If anyone answers "yes" they should jump off a cliff
2) If people didn't. who did?
2) If people didn't. who did?
no math = no computer = death
Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
Are you kidding?? electricity... computers... every single electrical thing created, was created with math (and physics obviously)Scorpion0x17 wrote:
have invented all the things we have, without using mathematics.
there is NOTHING that we have now that could have been created without some form of math.
Yes a space station could be made without using math.Janysc wrote:
Oh no, that's completely backwards. Engineering means using math to solve, for one, construction problems. Could a space station be made without using math?Scorpion0x17 wrote:
...have invented all the things we have, without using mathematics.
Could we construct an eye, bones, a brain or a whole body without using maths? Nature did.
We could do what nature did. We could evolve a space station, a computer, cars, electricity, anything - none of it had to be engineered.
All of it could have been invented by other means.
Wrong. Read "Guns, Germs and Steel: A short history of everybody for the last 13,000 years" (might have a different subtitle in the US) by Jared Diamond.Janysc wrote:
Mathematics is more than numbers; it hones rationality and your ability to think systematically over any problem. I think that's one of the reasons why some societies are still at stone-age level while others (like us) are space-age. I'm pretty convinced a society is only as advanced as its insight in mathematics.
Precisely my point.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
This is a double-edged question, whereas: a) Innate universal presence; b) Human understanding. Therefore:Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
I don't know if this is considered 'serious' debate but here goes.
1) Do you think that humans could live without mathematics?
2) And did humans create mathematics?
My co-worker claims that math is unimportant for our existence... and that everything we have now could eventually have been obtained/created/invented without math. (He's a philosophy guy)
To me it's obvious that humans would not be anything without any math (note: counting is math)
1. a) No.
1. b) Yes.
2. a) No.
2. b) Yes.I picked up a rock and broke it in half on another rock. It was sparkly inside. Now it's a decoration. No math as far as human understanding is concerned was needed, but the innate presence of mathematics in our world was..Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
there is NOTHING that we have now that could have been created without some form of math.
Eep! Run away! Run away!unnamednewbie13 wrote:
He needs to practice his philosophy. It would be impossible to have a math book without math. As math books are a subset of "everything we have," I have effectively countered his statement in one of the most blunt manners possible.Ender2309 wrote:
no, what he is is a staggering, blatant, ignorant idiot.Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
My co-worker claims that math is unimportant for our existence... and that everything we have now could eventually have been obtained/created/invented without math. (He's a philosophy guy)
Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
thats mathunnamednewbie13 wrote:
broke it in half
you realize you have to make fragments (fractions) to get the middle.
Obviously you don't understand what math is... but that's alright. Go learn what it is, then argue.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
Are you kidding?? electricity... computers... every single electrical thing created, was created with math (and physics obviously)Scorpion0x17 wrote:
have invented all the things we have, without using mathematics.
there is NOTHING that we have now that could have been created without some form of math.Yes a space station could be made without using math.Janysc wrote:
Oh no, that's completely backwards. Engineering means using math to solve, for one, construction problems. Could a space station be made without using math?Scorpion0x17 wrote:
...have invented all the things we have, without using mathematics.
Could we construct an eye, bones, a brain or a whole body without using maths? Nature did.
We could do what nature did. We could evolve a space station, a computer, cars, electricity, anything - none of it had to be engineered.
All of it could have been invented by other means.
'cause you can't argue if you don't know anything about what you are aguing about.
Irrelevant. When I broke the rock up, I didn't necessarily aim for two equal pieces. It could've disintegrated and I would've been happy. As it was, the two halves were not equal, 'half' being the most convenient description for the results of said action.Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
thats mathunnamednewbie13 wrote:
broke it in half
you realize you have to make fragments (fractions) to get the middle.
Of course I use mathematics in language because that's the way our society works. I'm only saying that if human understanding of mathematics was null in the first place, we would still have survived (perhaps having evolved into something more suited to tech-free existence), or merely have gone extinct without the benefit of anything more sophisticated than knobbly stick-clubs. Of course, even with tech, extinction is still within the realms of possibility.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-03-16 16:36:45)
I understand perfectly what math is. It's an order of Hindu monks. Only joking. Well, that is, it is an order of Hindu monks, but I do also know what math is in this context. Wikipedia puts it better than I probably could:Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
Obviously you don't understand what math is... but that's alright. Go learn what it is, then argue.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:
Are you kidding?? electricity... computers... every single electrical thing created, was created with math (and physics obviously)Scorpion0x17 wrote:
have invented all the things we have, without using mathematics.
there is NOTHING that we have now that could have been created without some form of math.Yes a space station could be made without using math.Janysc wrote:
Oh no, that's completely backwards. Engineering means using math to solve, for one, construction problems. Could a space station be made without using math?
Could we construct an eye, bones, a brain or a whole body without using maths? Nature did.
We could do what nature did. We could evolve a space station, a computer, cars, electricity, anything - none of it had to be engineered.
All of it could have been invented by other means.
'cause you can't argue if you don't know anything about what you are aguing about.
It's actually wrong to think of Math as an innate property of the universe as such - we do so because our thought and language is so strongly bound to mathematical concepts such as quantity and fractions.wikipedia wrote:
Mathematics (colloquially, maths, or math), is the body of knowledge centered on concepts such as quantity, structure, space, and change, and also the academic discipline that studies them.
Math is a method of describing the universe. So, to use 'newbie13s example - the rock does not break into two halves because maths says 1/2=0.5, rather the rock splits into what we mathematically describe as 'two halves'.
The processes that we describe using mathematics are innate, math itself is not.
as soon as you realize that having 'more' meat is better than having 'less' meat, you are applying math to life
its pretty much impossible to live without math...
its pretty much impossible to live without math...
If humans didnt create math then who did? Aliens?
It depends on your definition of math. If another intellegence somewhere in the universe created a number system before us, then used that number system to create things like evens and odds, addition, subtraction, and other forms of math that our system wouldnt support. I guess we didnt create math.
It depends on your definition of math. If another intellegence somewhere in the universe created a number system before us, then used that number system to create things like evens and odds, addition, subtraction, and other forms of math that our system wouldnt support. I guess we didnt create math.
15 more years! 15 more years!
Many species live without the use of math, but not us. Our society, our world, would crumble without math.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
A species can live without computers, cars, money or an active understanding of mathematics. An individual can also eat something he didn't grow without the benefit of math. However, as mentioned above, without math at its most basic level, the universe could not exist.liquix wrote:
Without math you would not be typing on a computer, driving a car, eating things you didn't grow, earning a monetary living, etc. Your friend is into philosophy to a point where reality has gone out the window, math created the pyramids, helped us plan for intercontinental voyages, mapped the globed, and provided the statistical knowledge to support our world today. I still hate doing it tho.
So, to once again build off of an early reply: yes and no.As my ancestry would've evolved without the benefit of technologies, then yes. I'd have to say that if my species still existed, I could live. Who knows? Maybe we'd all have fangs. lolEnzzenmachine wrote:
Basically without maths, technologies wouldn't exist.
could you live with no technologies ?
No, 'more' and 'less' are not mathematical concepts as such - they're just opposing relative concepts - like 'black' and 'white', 'good' and 'bad'. They do not have 'quantity'. It only becomes math when we start to describe the degree of 'moreness' or 'lessness' of something.Blehm98 wrote:
as soon as you realize that having 'more' meat is better than having 'less' meat, you are applying math to life
its pretty much impossible to live without math...
Your example demonstrates that we didn't 'create' math as such - we created a language that we use to describe the processes that are innate to the universe. Both the language and the processes can be called 'math', but one we did create, the other we discovered.Dezerteagal5 wrote:
If humans didnt create math then who did? Aliens?
It depends on your definition of math. If another intellegence somewhere in the universe created a number system before us, then used that number system to create things like evens and odds, addition, subtraction, and other forms of math that our system wouldnt support. I guess we didnt create math.
Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2007-03-16 21:21:22)