When we finally did decide to get involved, we had to wage bloody battle across the Pacific and Europe to take back what was lost. Were we really better off for having gotten involved late in the game?Turquoise wrote:
And should they have been? We entered at a good point in time.usmarine2007 wrote:
Americans were not morally behind WWII until Japan attacked the US.Turquoise wrote:
This is what I posted on that blog. I'm sure it's going to be flamed to pieces....
"The comment is true, but the problem isn't that America isn't behind the war morally -- the problem is the war itself. We need to get out. Iraq is not worth dying for."
We waited till the Germans had worn out a lot of their forces and until the Japanese began to stretch themselves thin. In the meantime, we were building up our own military.
We timed our involvement very well. I can't say the same for Iraq.
Is that the only thing you liberals can stand on? FFS, he killed 100,000's of thousands of people and threatened to kill more! WAKE THE FUCK UP GUYS! Its not like i don't like you for having an opinion that the Iraq war is wrong, but man, i just don't understand how after so many years living in a world filled with men like him and others all they wasnt to do is KILL you and your family if they had the chance!...Vilham wrote:
No matter what you say about the war in Iraq, it was morally unacceptable and stupid, Saddam could never have launched an attack on the UK or the US.
I have very high morals, most service men and women do, and your opinion might differ, but President Bush, Prime Minister Blair, and God I wish i had a list of all the other nations leaders that do support the freedom of the Iraqi people, they all have high morals. SO please, find something other than he didn't have an quick way to send troops to America to attack us, as a basis to defend that, dead, murderous, vile being that had no morals!... *Sigh rant over,
incorrect.usmarine2007 wrote:
About as true as it goes in any war.
Just take World War 2. Was the American public indifferent then? No. The whole nation was behind the war effort.
Politicians sent their children into the armed forces - not a case today.
Or it could be that the American public has simply taken war for granted, since the US have been in every single major conflict this past century.
That wasnt the point....fuck.....lets not start another one of these arguments, lets just ignore it.Vilham wrote:
No matter what you say about the war in Iraq, it was morally unacceptable and stupid, Saddam could never have launched an attack on the UK or the US.
There are several million dead civillians who would argue with your timing.Turquoise wrote:
And should they have been? We entered at a good point in time.usmarine2007 wrote:
Americans were not morally behind WWII until Japan attacked the US.Turquoise wrote:
This is what I posted on that blog. I'm sure it's going to be flamed to pieces....
"The comment is true, but the problem isn't that America isn't behind the war morally -- the problem is the war itself. We need to get out. Iraq is not worth dying for."
We waited till the Germans had worn out a lot of their forces and until the Japanese began to stretch themselves thin. In the meantime, we were building up our own military.
We timed our involvement very well. I can't say the same for Iraq.
You understand what this means right?usmarine2007 wrote:
Some of us like to be proactive.
ƒ³
I've said this before in other threads: if a war is not on a nation's doorstep then the majority of said nation will not fully identify with or care about the war half as much as if it were on their own turf. It is an abstract war for most Americans. It only affects the soldiers and the families of the soldiers. If America were successful or unsuccessful in the Iraq war it would have no discernible effect on the average American (except possibly a financial effect in the long term if America were able to secure a strong foothold in the Middle Eastern oil empire as a result of a victory).
I believe the Darwinian concept of capitalism prevalent in the US breeds a lot of apathy in many ways, I understand that there is still a lot of love for one's nation like in other countries but when your nation is continually led into 'abstract' wars the ordinary man in the street begins to think in terms of 'if we win great, if we lose I don't mind as long as it doesn't affect me directly'.
I believe the Darwinian concept of capitalism prevalent in the US breeds a lot of apathy in many ways, I understand that there is still a lot of love for one's nation like in other countries but when your nation is continually led into 'abstract' wars the ordinary man in the street begins to think in terms of 'if we win great, if we lose I don't mind as long as it doesn't affect me directly'.
Is everyone forgetting that the war in Afghanistan is still going on, that peace has not yet been declared? Do not be blinded by the peacekeeping mission in Iraq, the war there was declared to be over years ago.
I do so love it when military folks lord their service over civilians who have the audacity not to agree with them. And it's just ever so reassuring that you think so little of your oath that you have to begrudgingly accept the responsibility of defending your own countrymen while acting like you think you should be able to pick and choose which ones you protect based on their politics. We don't have the freedoms we have out of your generosity, buddy. We're born with them, live with them and die with them whether our government recognizes and respects them or not. The Constitution doesn't give us those rights, it spells them out explicitly for the edification of people like yourself, who seem to be under the delusion that those rights are somehow conditional based on your opinions and that the rest of us owe you a debt of gratitude for not just telling us to screw off. Personally I don't give a crap if you think myself or anyone else is worth defending, but if you can't hack defending the people you serve unconditionally, maybe you should think about a career change.(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:
I'd say you weren't worth fighting for, but I took an oath to defend you, and so did all the other living and dead Marines, Airmen, Sailers and Soliders. So don't worry about it, we got your back dumb ass, which leads me to my next thought... I'll say this again, the US Constitution gives you the right to be a moron.
If you knew anything about history you would also remember that over 80% of the American populace thought that the Nazi Party, with Hitler, was a good Ally in Germany in the Late 1930's.
--Some famous old quote " Those that forget the past are condemned to repeat it."
lol I read it as
America is not at war
The movie Cops is at war
America is at the mall
America is not at war
The movie Cops is at war
America is at the mall
I'm not from your neck of the woods, not by a long shot, but if you give your own military shit then I have to say you're out of line. Fuck it, what would you say if a foreign power was waltzing through your home town? Show some respect FFSHunterOfSkulls wrote:
I do so love it when military folks lord their service over civilians who have the audacity not to agree with them. And it's just ever so reassuring that you think so little of your oath that you have to begrudgingly accept the responsibility of defending your own countrymen while acting like you think you should be able to pick and choose which ones you protect based on their politics. We don't have the freedoms we have out of your generosity, buddy. We're born with them, live with them and die with them whether our government recognizes and respects them or not. The Constitution doesn't give us those rights, it spells them out explicitly for the edification of people like yourself, who seem to be under the delusion that those rights are somehow conditional based on your opinions and that the rest of us owe you a debt of gratitude for not just telling us to screw off. Personally I don't give a crap if you think myself or anyone else is worth defending, but if you can't hack defending the people you serve unconditionally, maybe you should think about a career change.
Respect is earned, not given or demanded. Anyone practically ordering me to respect them because they wear a fucking uniform doesn't deserve my respect. Anyone who hedges on their oath to defend me because I don't think in lockstep with them can fuck right off. I don't need that kind of defense; in the event of your hypothetical foreign power invasion I'd be better off relying on defending myself, not on someone who might just take advantage of the situation to put a bullet in my back and blame the enemy for it, since I wasn't fucking worthy of their protection. If they're going to defend me then let them fucking defend me, not give me this passive-aggressive "I really don't want to defend you but I'm legally obligated to do so" crap. If you don't believe in the oath then don't swear to it, it's that simple. I'll be damned if I'm going to respect someone who complains that their oath requires them to protect me.Pubic wrote:
I'm not from your neck of the woods, not by a long shot, but if you give your own military shit then I have to say you're out of line. Fuck it, what would you say if a foreign power was waltzing through your home town? Show some respect FFS
I thought the war was over when bush stood on that air force carrier and said so. Thought this was nation building that's going on?
Blaming the mess on the liberals is yet another smoke screen to cover the Bush administrations fuck ups. It was a fuck up before the Lib's got hold of the houses and it is still a mess after. If say Gore had won way back, the USA would have still went into Afghanistan and most likely Iraqi and they would be in the same mess. Its just shifting the blame, loosing the houses now gives the Republicans and their two terms of constant imperialist failure, someone to blame it on.
Blaming the mess on the liberals is yet another smoke screen to cover the Bush administrations fuck ups. It was a fuck up before the Lib's got hold of the houses and it is still a mess after. If say Gore had won way back, the USA would have still went into Afghanistan and most likely Iraqi and they would be in the same mess. Its just shifting the blame, loosing the houses now gives the Republicans and their two terms of constant imperialist failure, someone to blame it on.
I think if I saw a bus coming at you I prolly wouldn't say anything. I'd just let it happen.HunterOfSkulls wrote:
Respect is earned, not given or demanded. Anyone practically ordering me to respect them because they wear a fucking uniform doesn't deserve my respect. Anyone who hedges on their oath to defend me because I don't think in lockstep with them can fuck right off. I don't need that kind of defense; in the event of your hypothetical foreign power invasion I'd be better off relying on defending myself, not on someone who might just take advantage of the situation to put a bullet in my back and blame the enemy for it, since I wasn't fucking worthy of their protection. If they're going to defend me then let them fucking defend me, not give me this passive-aggressive "I really don't want to defend you but I'm legally obligated to do so" crap. If you don't believe in the oath then don't swear to it, it's that simple. I'll be damned if I'm going to respect someone who complains that their oath requires them to protect me.Pubic wrote:
I'm not from your neck of the woods, not by a long shot, but if you give your own military shit then I have to say you're out of line. Fuck it, what would you say if a foreign power was waltzing through your home town? Show some respect FFS
Not entirely correct and your second statement is false. The whole nation was not behind the war effort until Japan attacked, even though the US government was sending supplies and weaponry to England before that.maffiaw wrote:
incorrect.usmarine2007 wrote:
About as true as it goes in any war.
Just take World War 2. Was the American public indifferent then? No. The whole nation was behind the war effort.
Politicians sent their children into the armed forces - not a case today.
Wow, you need to seek some help.HunterOfSkulls wrote:
Respect is earned, not given or demanded. Anyone practically ordering me to respect them because they wear a fucking uniform doesn't deserve my respect. Anyone who hedges on their oath to defend me because I don't think in lockstep with them can fuck right off. I don't need that kind of defense; in the event of your hypothetical foreign power invasion I'd be better off relying on defending myself, not on someone who might just take advantage of the situation to put a bullet in my back and blame the enemy for it, since I wasn't fucking worthy of their protection. If they're going to defend me then let them fucking defend me, not give me this passive-aggressive "I really don't want to defend you but I'm legally obligated to do so" crap. If you don't believe in the oath then don't swear to it, it's that simple. I'll be damned if I'm going to respect someone who complains that their oath requires them to protect me.Pubic wrote:
I'm not from your neck of the woods, not by a long shot, but if you give your own military shit then I have to say you're out of line. Fuck it, what would you say if a foreign power was waltzing through your home town? Show some respect FFS
Difference between Darfur and Iraq. Iraq has oil. Don't go talking about your fucked up "high morals," because that is complete bullshit. You don't free people from dictating oppressors by killing thousands of them. And certainly cannot feel good about yourself for "freeing the Iraqis" unless you completely ignore the genocide going on right now in Darfur.(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:
Is that the only thing you liberals can stand on? FFS, he killed 100,000's of thousands of people and threatened to kill more! WAKE THE FUCK UP GUYS! Its not like i don't like you for having an opinion that the Iraq war is wrong, but man, i just don't understand how after so many years living in a world filled with men like him and others all they wasnt to do is KILL you and your family if they had the chance!...Vilham wrote:
No matter what you say about the war in Iraq, it was morally unacceptable and stupid, Saddam could never have launched an attack on the UK or the US.
I have very high morals, most service men and women do, and your opinion might differ, but President Bush, Prime Minister Blair, and God I wish i had a list of all the other nations leaders that do support the freedom of the Iraqi people, they all have high morals. SO please, find something other than he didn't have an quick way to send troops to America to attack us, as a basis to defend that, dead, murderous, vile being that had no morals!... *Sigh rant over,
High morals... give me a break.
Well I guess that means I'm not gonna make your Christmas card list this year. I guess I should go sob tragically now because someone on a bulletin board doesn't like me.Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
I think if I saw a bus coming at you I prolly wouldn't say anything. I'd just let it happen.
Yes, I obviously need help because I don't blindly respect a uniform regardless of what it's wrapped around.usmarine2007 wrote:
Wow, you need to seek some help.
Lotta bootlickers on this board today. Maybe I am crazy, but I don't understand exactly what part of freedom and liberty is involved in "If it wasn't for this oath I'd only protect the people that agree with me". Seriously, what the fuck kind of American says that? What the fuck kind of American just obediently bows to a uniform or a badge? For that matter, what the fuck kind of American claims to cherish and defend the Constitution then follows it up with "now STFU!"? This isn't Stalin's Russia, it's fucking America. Does anybody even remember what that's supposed to mean anymore? Hint: it isn't "submit to the will of the State, comrades". The logical disconnect here is staggering.
Look, I am so sorry if this hurts the poor widdle feewings of some folks around here, but this is the deal. I think the way I want to think. I speak my mind without checking for authorization from someone else or worrying about whether or not some anonymous text on my screen is going to get all twisted about it. I will continue to do so until I am no longer among the living. Such is my right, not only as an American but as a human being. Trying to tell me that there's a price for defending my rights and that price is my silence only reminds me that better people than you have fought and died to defend my rights, asking nothing of me but that I remember them and honor their sacrifice. Compared to them, you're nothing but a cheap thug trying to scare out of people the respect you can't earn honestly.
What kind of bear? It matters, you know.ATG wrote:
Does a bear shit in the woods?
Oh, I'm sorry, I guess the will of the people doesn't mean anything to you.(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:
That answer would have to be: YES!I'd say you weren't worth fighting for, but I took an oath to defend you, and so did all the other living and dead Marines, Airmen, Sailers and Soliders. So don't worry about it, we got your back dumb ass, which leads me to my next thought... I'll say this again, the US Constitution gives you the right to be a moron.Turquoise wrote:
And should they have been? We entered at a good point in time.usmarine2007 wrote:
Americans were not morally behind WWII until Japan attacked the US.
We waited till the Germans had worn out a lot of their forces and until the Japanese began to stretch themselves thin. In the meantime, we were building up our own military.
We timed our involvement very well. I can't say the same for Iraq.
If you knew anything about history you would also remember that over 80% of the American populace thought that the Nazi Party, with Hitler, was a good Ally in Germany in the Late 1930's.
--Some famous old quote " Those that forget the past are condemned to repeat it."
Would you prefer the government always go against the will of the people?
Hell, why don't we just attack Iran right now? I know you'd like to. Hell, you're the kind of person who'd like to attack any country the government can make you afraid of.
So, I'm sorry for being a "dumbass" that thinks for myself. Maybe I should follow your example and be a fucking pawn to the government.
Go eat an IED, asshole....
Seems like you are talking about some other issue. But you completely miss the point often on these topics, and I'm not surprised here. I am a (Former) Marine, if I had orders to go to Darfur, I would gladly serve my oath there as well. Are you ready to go help them? I do have a huge feeling of sympathy and empathy for those poor souls that don't have 1/1000th of the resources that you and I are blessed with. So Mr. Communist, how can you justifiably question my morals? Try sticking to the topic, or starting your own about the Service of US Forces and why you think we are unable to have high morals, since we aren't serving in Darfur, as well.CommieChipmunk wrote:
Difference between Darfur and Iraq. Iraq has oil. Don't go talking about your fucked up "high morals," because that is complete bullshit. You don't free people from dictating oppressors by killing thousands of them. And certainly cannot feel good about yourself for "freeing the Iraqis" unless you completely ignore the genocide going on right now in Darfur.(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:
Is that the only thing you liberals can stand on? FFS, he killed 100,000's of thousands of people and threatened to kill more! WAKE THE FUCK UP GUYS! Its not like i don't like you for having an opinion that the Iraq war is wrong, but man, i just don't understand how after so many years living in a world filled with men like him and others all they wasnt to do is KILL you and your family if they had the chance!...Vilham wrote:
No matter what you say about the war in Iraq, it was morally unacceptable and stupid, Saddam could never have launched an attack on the UK or the US.
I have very high morals, most service men and women do, and your opinion might differ, but President Bush, Prime Minister Blair, and God I wish i had a list of all the other nations leaders that do support the freedom of the Iraqi people, they all have high morals. SO please, find something other than he didn't have an quick way to send troops to America to attack us, as a basis to defend that, dead, murderous, vile being that had no morals!... *Sigh rant over,
High morals... give me a break.
Or to the millions of Jews that could have been saved by an ealier entry into the war. It is common knowledge that the US was in an isolationist state prior to WWII, which was one of the preventative factors to us entering prior to Pearl Harbor.PureFodder wrote:
There are several million dead civillians who would argue with your timing.Turquoise wrote:
And should they have been? We entered at a good point in time.usmarine2007 wrote:
Americans were not morally behind WWII until Japan attacked the US.
We waited till the Germans had worn out a lot of their forces and until the Japanese began to stretch themselves thin. In the meantime, we were building up our own military.
We timed our involvement very well. I can't say the same for Iraq.
Is not the fact that someone stands up to defend you and your country something that earns them some respect? That's not to say that servicemembers deserve an unquestioning respect on all accounts and are untouchable with regards to morals. But, someone who takes an oath to protect you with their life deserves at least some amount of respect.HunterOfSkulls wrote:
Respect is earned, not given or demanded. Anyone practically ordering me to respect them because they wear a fucking uniform doesn't deserve my respect. Anyone who hedges on their oath to defend me because I don't think in lockstep with them can fuck right off. I don't need that kind of defense; in the event of your hypothetical foreign power invasion I'd be better off relying on defending myself, not on someone who might just take advantage of the situation to put a bullet in my back and blame the enemy for it, since I wasn't fucking worthy of their protection. If they're going to defend me then let them fucking defend me, not give me this passive-aggressive "I really don't want to defend you but I'm legally obligated to do so" crap. If you don't believe in the oath then don't swear to it, it's that simple. I'll be damned if I'm going to respect someone who complains that their oath requires them to protect me.Pubic wrote:
I'm not from your neck of the woods, not by a long shot, but if you give your own military shit then I have to say you're out of line. Fuck it, what would you say if a foreign power was waltzing through your home town? Show some respect FFS
As to the original posters question, I think the country is at war but that does not mean the populace is at war. With modern technology battles are not about the numbers any more which causes the population to take a more personal view of any conflict not in their back yard. In any event, the US will continue to be involved in conflicts throughout the world that do not directly affect us - whether we want to or not. We have the onus of getting involved when the "world" deems that our might needs to be used for the greater good: Somalia, Bosnia, etc.
I am not asking for anything. When did I say something like that? I am just saying you need some mental help.HunterOfSkulls wrote:
Compared to them, you're nothing but a cheap thug trying to scare out of people the respect you can't earn honestly.
Last edited by usmarine2007 (2007-02-24 11:45:51)
If that's what they're doing, absolutely yes. Not if they start talking this "I don't want to defend you but I have to, so you owe me" shit. If they have that kind of reservation about the oath or want to place conditions on their adherence to it, they shouldn't have sworn to it in the first place.Psycho wrote:
Is not the fact that someone stands up to defend you and your country something that earns them some respect? That's not to say that servicemembers deserve an unquestioning respect on all accounts and are untouchable with regards to morals. But, someone who takes an oath to protect you with their life deserves at least some amount of respect.
I was speaking in general regarding anyone who demands I respect them based solely on their station. As far as you questioning my sanity I'll take that for where it comes from.usmarine2007 wrote:
I am not asking for anything. When did I say something like that? I am just saying you need some mental help.
As long as you understand, I am happy.HunterOfSkulls wrote:
I was speaking in general regarding anyone who demands I respect them based solely on their station. As far as you questioning my sanity I'll take that for where it comes from.