It's not just democracy that we want, it's a Western-style democracy that has limits in place to check the power of the elected government. Pure democracy with no limits is just as bad as a dictatorship if the majority acts as one unified power. This is why I don't like just throwing democracy into people's laps; without some kind of limit you get Hamas elected. As for this guy, I don't know if his electorate knew that he killed Americans, so you can't necessarily blame it on people voting in anti-Americans.CameronPoe wrote:
That's democracy for you gentlemen. The people wanted him in office and they got him in office. If you don't like democracy then don't preach about it to others. If you want to impose your will on others, against their will, than state it openly and let's not beat about the bush. Let's be done with all this 'we have the interests of the Iraqis at heart' bullshit. Seen it all before with the election of Hamas to power in Palestine.
You gotta face it - the vast majority of people in the middle east don't like America and don't want anything to do with it. Comprende? So you have two choices:
a) Concentrate on defence and domestic security: FORTRESS AMERICA.
or
b) Kill every last bearded person with sallow skin in the entire world.
Good points, but I think this proves that Iraq is better off as a dictatorship than a democracy -- for now, at least. If we had another dictator in power in Iraq, we could keep him on a shorter leash than we had Saddam on, and through him, we could crush the insurgents with a brutal police state.UGADawgs wrote:
It's not just democracy that we want, it's a Western-style democracy that has limits in place to check the power of the elected government. Pure democracy with no limits is just as bad as a dictatorship if the majority acts as one unified power. This is why I don't like just throwing democracy into people's laps; without some kind of limit you get Hamas elected. As for this guy, I don't know if his electorate knew that he killed Americans, so you can't necessarily blame it on people voting in anti-Americans.CameronPoe wrote:
That's democracy for you gentlemen. The people wanted him in office and they got him in office. If you don't like democracy then don't preach about it to others. If you want to impose your will on others, against their will, than state it openly and let's not beat about the bush. Let's be done with all this 'we have the interests of the Iraqis at heart' bullshit. Seen it all before with the election of Hamas to power in Palestine.
You gotta face it - the vast majority of people in the middle east don't like America and don't want anything to do with it. Comprende? So you have two choices:
a) Concentrate on defence and domestic security: FORTRESS AMERICA.
or
b) Kill every last bearded person with sallow skin in the entire world.
Fuck you and goddamnit your logic defies arguments so many times.CameronPoe wrote:
That's democracy for you gentlemen. The people wanted him in office and they got him in office. If you don't like democracy then don't preach about it to others. If you want to impose your will on others, against their will, than state it openly and let's not beat about the bush. Let's be done with all this 'we have the interests of the Iraqis at heart' bullshit. Seen it all before with the election of Hamas to power in Palestine.
You gotta face it - the vast majority of people in the middle east don't like America and don't want anything to do with it. Comprende? So you have two choices:
a) Concentrate on defence and domestic security: FORTRESS AMERICA.
or
b) Kill every last bearded person with sallow skin in the entire world.
ps,
hugs, you win.
Hamas? Did we try and interfere in elections that put Hamas in power? Or do you really curse the US for NOT wanting to establish relations with a govt. that the US does not like. Why should we?CameronPoe wrote:
That's democracy for you gentlemen. The people wanted him in office and they got him in office. If you don't like democracy then don't preach about it to others. If you want to impose your will on others, against their will, than state it openly and let's not beat about the bush. Let's be done with all this 'we have the interests of the Iraqis at heart' bullshit. Seen it all before with the election of Hamas to power in Palestine.
You gotta face it - the vast majority of people in the middle east don't like America and don't want anything to do with it. Comprende? So you have two choices:
a) Concentrate on defence and domestic security: FORTRESS AMERICA.
or
b) Kill every last bearded person with sallow skin in the entire world.
I am also with you, we are interfering where it isn't our business. So I guess a trip to Dalfur is out of the question based on what you thinking we should mind our own business. I would give anything if we did.
This is just another example of how justice works when there is no red tape involved and how it doesn't when there is.
This guy will live a long, fruitful life with no fear of anything happening to him. Funny how that works isn't it?
This guy will live a long, fruitful life with no fear of anything happening to him. Funny how that works isn't it?
I'm not talking about US interference with Hamas - all I'm saying is that if USA wants a truly democratic middle east then prepare to expect a raft of nations with vehemently anti-American governments, including Iraq. I'm saying 'stop preaching democracy if you don't like the consequences'.lowing wrote:
Hamas? Did we try and interfere in elections that put Hamas in power? Or do you really curse the US for NOT wanting to establish relations with a govt. that the US does not like. Why should we?
I am also with you, we are interfering where it isn't our business. So I guess a trip to Dalfur is out of the question based on what you thinking we should mind our own business. I would give anything if we did.
PS Darfur is a problem for the Sudanese and surrounding countries - it's none of our business. But then - I am a committed western isolationist.
Democracy worked, Hamas is in, that does not mean we have to establish relations.CameronPoe wrote:
I'm not talking about US interference with Hamas - all I'm saying is that if USA wants a truly democratic middle east then prepare to expect a raft of nations with vehemently anti-American governments, including Iraq. I'm saying 'stop preaching democracy if you don't like the consequences'.lowing wrote:
Hamas? Did we try and interfere in elections that put Hamas in power? Or do you really curse the US for NOT wanting to establish relations with a govt. that the US does not like. Why should we?
I am also with you, we are interfering where it isn't our business. So I guess a trip to Dalfur is out of the question based on what you thinking we should mind our own business. I would give anything if we did.
PS Darfur is a problem for the Sudanese and surrounding countries - it's none of our business. But then - I am a committed western isolationist.
I am surprised at you about Darfur. I thought you would want to charge in there with peace and love and save Africa.
We will be greeted as liberators. We will pass out candy to the children who have been raped with knives while their dying parents watched. That's what they need candy.lowing wrote:
I am surprised at you about Darfur. I thought you would want to charge in there with peace and love and save Africa.
Last edited by Mason4Assassin444 (2007-02-07 06:12:17)
The point he's making is that it looks really bad to go on and on about democracy and then, when a stable democracy votes in a government you don't like, ignore them.lowing wrote:
Democracy worked, Hamas is in, that does not mean we have to establish relations.
I suspect that he believes it will only make the situation worse.lowing wrote:
I am surprised at you about Darfur. I thought you would want to charge in there with peace and love and save Africa.
I'm not a hypocrite Lowing - perhaps airdrop in some food/humanitarian aid to Darfur - but what the fuck business is it of ours to go in there and 'save the day'. Intervening in such regional problems is similar to intervening in domestic brawls between man and wife: more often than not your efforts are scorned by both parties. Isolationism and fair protectionism is THE way forward.lowing wrote:
Democracy worked, Hamas is in, that does not mean we have to establish relations.
I am surprised at you about Darfur. I thought you would want to charge in there with peace and love and save Africa.
PS I never said the US had to establish relations with Hamas - I'm just saying 'don't preach democracy if you don't like the consequences'.
I too am surprised at your response Mr.Poe on Darfur. Should we not have interfered in Afghanistan, the Balkans, etc.
Do you not believe in peace keeping? What about NI. Should both Dublin and London leave that alone also?
Do you not believe in peace keeping? What about NI. Should both Dublin and London leave that alone also?
we had thirty years of British state sponsored Loyalist death squads keeping us safe here in N.Ireland.. thanks..commissargizz wrote:
I too am surprised at your response Mr.Poe on Darfur. Should we not have interfered in Afghanistan, the Balkans, etc.
Do you not believe in peace keeping? What about NI. Should both Dublin and London leave that alone also?
And the IRA death squads ? Where did they get their money.
they sure has hell wern't funded BY THE STATE FFS..
I don't care where either got money and funding. They're all murdering scum bags.
I think you'll find that USA supplied them with the cash and some weapons, Libya with the rest of the weapons.commissargizz wrote:
And the IRA death squads ? Where did they get their money.
Northern Ireland - disputed part of the Republic of Ireland or the United Kingdom, depending on your perspective. You're asking those actually involved not to intervene - ?????? :scommissargizz wrote:
I too am surprised at your response Mr.Poe on Darfur. Should we not have interfered in Afghanistan, the Balkans, etc.
Do you not believe in peace keeping? What about NI. Should both Dublin and London leave that alone also?
Local issues should be dealt with by those local to the problem. Balkans - Europeans should have sorted it. Afghanistan? Not my problem...
Good for you, I on the other hand expect the state, in which I am a citizen in and paying taxes to be protecting me - NOT FUNDING DEATH SQUADS MURDERING AT WILL MY FELLOW CITIZENS - see the difference? state / terrorist organisationcommissargizz wrote:
I don't care where either got money and funding. They're all murdering scum bags.
Ya know, its funny how our most despised enemies keep slipping away--more often than not, they come back to bite us in the ass. Bin Laden, Hussein, this guy in parliament...seriously, every time the US has tried to interfere in the mid-east, in any way whatsoever, we get massive blow-back. Whats next, Hussein comes back from the grave to rule Iraq AGAIN for another twenty-something years?
Terrorism, does it matter where it comes from it's still the same isn't, terrorism, just because it comes from a Government doesn't make it any worse or better. At the end of the day the guy with the gun is going to murder someone.
Are the British still funding the Loyalists?
Are the British still funding the Loyalists?
not since 2004 (or so we are told) anyways, that's neither here nor there, I think you're missing the point i'm making, needless to say, what's happening in Iraq is pretty much the same has the occupation here, it's just going to be a complete mess for decades if here is anything to go by..
Last edited by IG-Calibre (2007-02-07 10:15:42)
I just asked should the Northern Irish sort out their problem.
Balkans Europe , Ni Europe, maybe we shoud get the Dutch to help?????
Afghanistan? Not my problem...
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
When would it become your problem? The world is now a small place.
Balkans Europe , Ni Europe, maybe we shoud get the Dutch to help?????
Afghanistan? Not my problem...
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
When would it become your problem? The world is now a small place.
All land at sometime has been occupied by another.
I can see where you are coming from. I'm 90% Isolationist, but I draw the line at Darfur. One way or another, we'll probably need to do something about it soon.CameronPoe wrote:
PS Darfur is a problem for the Sudanese and surrounding countries - it's none of our business. But then - I am a committed western isolationist.
Good point... it's part of why I dislike my own government.IG-Calibre wrote:
Good for you, I on the other hand expect the state, in which I am a citizen in and paying taxes to be protecting me - NOT FUNDING DEATH SQUADS MURDERING AT WILL MY FELLOW CITIZENS - see the difference? state / terrorist organisationcommissargizz wrote:
I don't care where either got money and funding. They're all murdering scum bags.