blisteringsilence
I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Kennedy
+83|6701|Little Rock, Arkansas

ts-pulsar wrote:

Anyway, to get to my point, the biggest problem that the current generation of M16's and M4s have is bad magazines.  The magazines springs tend to be crap and lose tension when they are kept loaded for more than a week at a time, once they weaken they are bad forever, this is probably the biggest reason people think the M16 is a piece of crap, which is unfair because they run almost flawlessly with proper magazines.  The reason the magazines are crap is simple, it's due to a "fair" business practice clause that all M16 magazines have to be manufactured by small business's in the US.  This means that there are a lot of manufacturers out that that build varied quality magazines, usually the problem is bad springs.
right on here. Magazines in general have this problem, which is why LE mags come from very specific places. You never see the deputy sheriff at Gander Mountain picking up spare mags. When you are going to be carrying a loaded mag for weeks at a time without unloading it, you want that spring to be as tough and resiliant as possible, and that steel isn't cheap. That's why I always suggest getting good, quality mags for your weapons. Sure, that hotlips 50 shot mag for your .22 is fun, but for god's sake don't keep it loaded.

ts-pulsar wrote:

The other big problem the M16/M4 has is that soldiers aren't really instructed in how to clean and oil, either that or they ignore the lesson, a lot of soldiers seem to think that the gas ports are oiling holes, and the gas system on ANY gas operated gun should be bone dry and free of debris.
I'm going to disagree and agree here. I know for a fact that the soldiers know how to clean and oil their weapons. Now, whether or not they do it correctly is something else entirely. The average boot graduate can explain how a gas operated rifle works (they have to know to graduate), but explaining and actually comprehending are two different animals. I personally shoot mainly gas operated shotguns, and have learned this lesson very, VERY well. You HAVE to keep those gas ports clear.

ts-pulsar wrote:

Another big problem which is also magazine related is broken or bent followers in the magazine.  When a soldier does a combat reload, either in practice or in a real fight, he simply drops that magazine on the ground, well the heavy part of the magazine is the top so they land on the follower and bend the crap out of them which ruins the magazine till an armorer can fix it.
Which is why the policy should be to return all used mags to the armourer and get fresh ones. Not really practical, but it does work. I have seen some plastic mags for the M16/M4 rifles that have these crazy plastic followers that are supposed to never bend or break, but have never actually used one. I'd be curious to know how they work in battlefield practice. I have a friend who has a bunch of Israeli made plastic mags, and he swears by them. There's some sort of steel wire in the plastic mold to help the mag keep its shape.

Anyway, I'd take an M4 over an L85A2 anyday. Mainly because I've shot it over and over, and know it inside and out. Its the tool you know over the tool you don't. I don't think the L85 is a bad weapon. But for me, I want my M4. I can customize it until I'm blue in the face, trick it out so I can make it sing like the Met. However, my roommate most likely couldn't hit the broadside of a barn by the time I was done. His customized M4 would be totally different than mine. And therein lies the beauty.
ts-pulsar
Member
+54|6501
Exactly, I've always thought of the M16 as the Honda Civic of the gun world, extremely customizable, tons of after market parts and upgrades, can just be an occasionally shooter for fun, or turned into a competition tack driver.


I've never understood why magazine companies have such a hard time building good springs, spring stock isn't all that expensive.  The process to building a good spring is in the heat treat, which isn't really all that hard, give me a piece of spring stock and I can build you a perfect spring in about 5 minutes.  It won't break and won't really loose more than about 10% tension.  And that's just using an oxy-acetaline torch.  The companies have access to ovens that get to perfect temperatures and allow for much more control, but they still don't get it right?


Oh by the way, if you've got a bad AR mag spring, I've gotta recommend replacing it with Wolff springs.  I've never had a bad Wolff spring.  Of course all Wolff really does is make springs.
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6393|The Gem Saloon
gotta say honestly that i have only shot an M16/M4 on full auto so i cant really make a fair comparison.
one good thing i could think of for the L85 is the bullpup design, which might make it a tad shorter than an AR(im too lazy or i would look up lengths).
however i do have to agree with the honda civic statement.....with all the RIS and holo sights, lights, lasers, bells and the fuckin whistles, you can turn it into whatever the hell you want.


my preference over both would be the M1A Socom.
more my size, and i prefer 7.62 over 5.56 anyday.


but hey since so many firearm enthusiasts are posting here, check out some videos of me with a full auto uzi and G3..........
http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f180/ … era066.flv
http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f180/ … uzi009.flv
|=-sL-=|.Cujucuyo.
Member
+26|6382|California

ts-pulsar wrote:

M16A4 has pretty much all the problems worked out of it, it only took the US 40 years, but they finally got the damn thing right.  Still a better track record than they 1903 Springfield, a WW1 era gun that they finally perfected in Vietnam with the 1903A3 variant .

Only complaint I've got with the M16 is the 3 round burst cam.  The way it's designed the first shot you do in three round burst may not be 3 rounds, you could get 1 or 2 or 3 depending on where the cam was situated when you changed the selector.  The H&K system works better for 3 round burst(think MP5 and G36), it will always be 3 rounds.

The other nice thing about the M16 is that it's modular, I know a couple troops in Iraq that have done an upper receiver swap on their M16 so it can shoot .50 Beowolf.  Not their primary weapon but something they keep around for base defense cause it can take out engine blocks whereas 5.56mm can't.  Getting ammo is a bitch though since it's not a military round.

I've never had an opportunity to handle an L85/SA 80 but from those I've talked to that have, it's got a lot of shortcomings, course I could never get them to go into specifics, biggest complaint I heard was that it wasn't an ambidextrous rifle, and managed to eject spent casings into you eyeball if your left handed.

But IMO this is the best assault rifle in the world
http://world.guns.ru/assault/sig550.jpg

Sig 550.  Good old swiss craftsmanship.  Pretty much took all the best features of the FAL, the G3, the M16 and the AK47 and threw it into one gun, very reliable, very accurate, and extremely durable.
That's an Airsoft SIG 550 . About the L85A2 Vs. M16... well, I think both are great guns, both had their problems in the past but now they are formidable, they even use the same magazine types.

Last edited by |=-sL-=|.Cujucuyo. (2007-01-05 23:45:08)

ts-pulsar
Member
+54|6501
Curious why you think it's airsoft, considering it's worldguns that I got the pic from.

And personally, I'd take a short gas system para FAL over a Socom, same caliber but a bit more durable, and thanks to the adjustable gas system will eat any ammo you give it.
UNDIESRULES
Member
+4|6680

Longbow wrote:

L85A2 ( result of H&K attempt to cure L85A1 ) - huge problems with thin magazine receiver ; poor accuracy with iron sights ; still crap reliability ; will be out of service in 2010's .

M16(A3\A4) > L85A2
Absolute crap.  Magazine receiver?  They only modifications made by H&K to an already fine rifle were the Gas Plug, Cocking Handle and some small changes to the weight of the Bolt and Carrier Assembly.  And a different magazine.

I have been lucky enough to use both rifles in several countries, and both are superb.  But to say the SA80A2 is unreliable is simply a load of bollox.  Troops from my Regiment have used it from Arctic conditions right through to Arizona Desert for weeks without cleaning it and cooling it off by dousing it in bins full of water and they performed almost entirely without fault.

Accuracy with Iron sights, it has to be said, is still beyond the reach of an M16 with Iron sights, possibly due to longer barrel. 

TBH i think both are far in excess of any AK variant and AK live off a reputation gained avor 40 odd years. 

BTW SA80A1/2 and every other variant you can think of has a picattiny rail, the carbine uses 2 so any advantage gained from it is a mute point.
ts-pulsar
Member
+54|6501
Good to hear it from someone who's used an SA80.  I really haven't had a chance to take a look at one since the UK won't make a semi only version to sell to civilians in the US.  Would make the UK quite the pretty penny if they did that too.

I've still got one complaint about the SA80, how the heck are the sinister people in our society supposed to shoot it with their dominant hand?  That's my one problem with bullpup rifles, you either shoot right handed, or take brass in the eyeball.
[=][=]DADDYOFDEATH
Member
+46|6451|Bradford UK
the only good thing i encountered when using the m-16 is the relatively low recoil. the l85 a2 has lowered recoil now too. The latest addition to the SA80 (Small Arms '80's) is the new deflection system, in which the ejected case is thrown up and away from the operator. this helps reduce the 'stoppage'. and the forward assist is being phased out too.in a biased way i will have to say the SA80 is more complete than the M-16, but also professionally i will say definitely the SA80 is better than the M-16. (sorry for bumping thread op)
[=][=]DADDYOFDEATH
Member
+46|6451|Bradford UK

Blehm98 wrote:

sorry, i had to say this though

one of the big problems with the L85 is that it uses a type of ammunition that i believe is used in heavy machine guns, meaning that it has a LOT of muzzle flash compared to other weapons of its caliber.  I read this in a sniper book though, so it wouldn't make much difference in a standard combat arena, it mainly reduced its use as a sniper weapon
SA80's use 5.56 ball ammunition. standard nato rounds. And get this. they are not designed to kill, more maim, and hinder the enemy battle medics. thats what i was told in basic. however we also have whats called the LSW (light support weapon) the sa80 and lsw have interchangeable parts and use the same ammunition. bet you didnt know that from wiki! good post though.

Last edited by [=][=]DADDYOFDEATH (2007-01-12 14:18:36)

Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|6754|United States of America
I dunno about you but I would want the M249 SAW.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6770|PNW

M4. :d

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-01-12 14:57:31)

Kurazoo
Pheasant Plucker
+440|6683|West Yorkshire, U.K
I am not here
willparker
Member
+0|6240
Ha got it all wrong. ok the sa80 was originally design by royal enfield small arms devision to replace the 7.62 slr. true the first few batches were a pile of crap. bae systems (british aerospace) actually own the rights now and the only reason h&k worked on the rifle was because at the time bae systems owned h&k. Right that out of the way since the gulf war every that can be put right has been put right and the L85A2 Carbine or SA80A2K is know to very reliable. on the accuracy issue the sa80 is unusual as it was not designed to army personal specs.
it was designed by marksmen and designed around the scope. the sa80 is known and proven to be the 2nd most accurate assult weapon in the world. on the crap side the weapon was design for the 400m - 500m range and not close range it is no good at the prone pos., full auto is abismal and the saftey is in the wrong place . one reason for the sas for using the m16.
so there you have the truth the sa80 is far mor accurate than the m16 probally about 20 years more accurate.
but the reliability of guns like the m16 , ak47 is undeniably good.

Last edited by willparker (2007-03-27 16:48:55)

Reaper Hilarus
Member
+0|6347

LostFate wrote:

Which is better and why?

I've heard that the m16 jamms up alot an theres alot of problems with it is that true?
The M16 has been improved a lot sense it fired its first bullet in combat.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6664|NT, like Mick Dundee

ROFLMAO, another which countries penis is bigger thread...
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6560
One to one, the L85A2.  But then, they serve different purposes: the British field a small, elite force, the Americans are larger, less elite force.  But then, aren't they switching to M4s anyway?
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6560

willparker wrote:

one reason for the sas for using the m16.
Uh...............the SAS don't use the M16 do they?  Even US special forces don't use the M16.
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6393|The Gem Saloon

Bubbalo wrote:

One to one, the L85A2.  But then, they serve different purposes: the British field a small, elite force, the Americans are larger, less elite force.  But then, aren't they switching to M4s anyway?
same action.
and how the hell would you know?
you didnt even know what a boresnake was........
reading doesnt count for actual experience, no matter how much you want it to.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6560

Parker wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

One to one, the L85A2.  But then, they serve different purposes: the British field a small, elite force, the Americans are larger, less elite force.  But then, aren't they switching to M4s anyway?
same action.
and how the hell would you know?
you didnt even know what a boresnake was........
reading doesnt count for actual experience, no matter how much you want it to.
Facts and figures don't lie, experience can.
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6393|The Gem Saloon

Bubbalo wrote:

Parker wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

One to one, the L85A2.  But then, they serve different purposes: the British field a small, elite force, the Americans are larger, less elite force.  But then, aren't they switching to M4s anyway?
same action.
and how the hell would you know?
you didnt even know what a boresnake was........
reading doesnt count for actual experience, no matter how much you want it to.
Facts and figures don't lie, experience can.
yes experience lies.
and what facts make it better?
cyclic rate?
caliber?
reliability?
enlighten me child.....
Megalomaniac
Formerly known as Missionless
+92|6326|105 RVK
we barely have guns in Iceland, not even the police has guns.

hunting rifles is the ony one that I've seen in this country.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6560

Parker wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

Parker wrote:

same action.
and how the hell would you know?
you didnt even know what a boresnake was........
reading doesnt count for actual experience, no matter how much you want it to.
Facts and figures don't lie, experience can.
yes experience lies.
and what facts make it better?
cyclic rate?
caliber?
reliability?
enlighten me child.....
Child?  Says the one who just undermined his own argument?
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6393|The Gem Saloon

Bubbalo wrote:

Parker wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:


Facts and figures don't lie, experience can.
yes experience lies.
and what facts make it better?
cyclic rate?
caliber?
reliability?
enlighten me child.....
Child?  Says the one who just undermined his own argument?
come on, tell me some of your great facts......
dont dodge it. tell me why the L8 is better than the M16.
blow me away with all those numbers kid.
yes child, as in someone who has limited experience....child.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6560
Uh huh...........so you've been in a combat situation with both an L85A1 and an M16?
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6393|The Gem Saloon

Bubbalo wrote:

Uh huh...........so you've been in a combat situation with both an L85A1 and an M16?
a lot closer than you have youngster.

oh, and answer the question......stop dodging it.

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