BF2S Forums To the religious: Why do you believe in God?

|=-sL-.Cujucuyo. wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

correct.  Only faith can support the belief that there is no God.  It is impossible to prove He does not exist.

Here i'll help you prove he doesn't, and by he i mean the Christian God.

From a Christian view point you have a Deity which is all powerful, all knowing, present, future, past etc. So now here is the kicker. You have this all powerful being create angels one of which is Lucifer. This being is all knowing so he knows very well what this Lucifer is going to do. So here is the catch he willingly creates a being which will now bring about the "fall" of man. So now you have a situation where man is now fallen, imperfect and stuck in this world which he apparently isn't from. So what better way to send himself via incarnation to save them from that which he put them into. You have Jesus whom is now going to save you from that which he created. So essentially you would have no reason for Jesus to save mankind if he had not created Lucifer. So now we have a dilemma here, this perfect Deity, essentially, his left hand is Lucifer and his right had is Jesus, but the catch is we pretend he doesn't know what the left hand is doing and go along with the entire story.


Please explain why God created Lucifer.....and we pretend....that he doesn't know of all the supposed bad things he will do to mankind.

Its all an illusion, a good one at that, but it does not work too well when you have a perfect Deity creating the problems before they start especially since he knows the outcome of everything apparently.

You can't show mercy for something you began, not only that, but to think that God IS portrayed to be the likeness of HUMANS is the ultimate arrogance of this religion. Arrogance in the sense that some how the deity of the Cosmos is going to end up being in the likeness of Humans, which make up a insignificant fraction of not only our Galaxy, but of this Universe.

Interesting but erroneous. God created Lucifer to punish the wicked, he created him in order to be a balance, this was of course before humanity was created, therefore a balance was created and free will could exist.

Punish the wicked? How can there exist wicked "people" prior to the fall of man which was induced by non other than our friend Lucifer via a snake.

While you freely admit this balance that exist between the two, but you don't take it a step further and realize that Good is Evil and Evil is Good.....its all the same

Free will has nothing to do with a balance of good an evil, hence the relativism to good an evil and the need for one to be able to describe the other, how do you factor in free will into this?

I could assume you believe each choice is either "good" or "evil" thus allowing the illusory of choice since ultimately only "good" choices are acceptable, but then again due to relativism it kinda shoots that down the drain since you can't know the good acts without having the bad acts there to let you know they are good lol.

=ACE=TeX wrote:

I grow weary of the militant atheists here. I would challenge fellow believers to just leave the topics alone. I have a right to believe as I may, without any scrutiny or insult. True ignorance is shown from intolerance and stereotyping people without first-hand insight, not what you see on TV or hear from the media or what you have proved to be true in your own head (your opinion). How dare you judge others and imply ignorance because they don't feel the way you do. I don't see any Christians posting any anti-atheist remarks, promising hellfire and damnation or judging other beliefs. It is only the "militant atheist" crowd that constantly badgers and prods believers.  Do society a favor and keep your selfishness and superiority complex to yourself. I am done with the blatantly insulting remarks and the folks who feel they must disprove God or discourage faith. And BTW, Jesus was a Jew, he was not white, he was not black. The Bible and The Torah make that perfectly clear. And whether you like it or not The Bible and the Torah are ACCEPTED as accurate historical accounts of the Jewish people. I am just waiting for the anti-semitic remarks to come.....

You obviously haven't lived in the South. I'll tell you that I am going to hell because I'm Jewish. You wanna know where I heard that? Yeah, a Christian. Try to have some experience in these matters. Many Christians (not all) proselytize. Many also "promise hellfire and damnation or judge other beliefs". Once again, I'm not saying all.

Bell wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

I would argue that God made it possible for you to have food on your table.

I would argue otherwise. Pointless stalemate leading ultimately to an infinity of circular arguments. There is not one good reason to suggest why some higher being has a hand in anything, in my mind.

If, in any of our lives, we wandered through life without having been exposed to the concept of 'god' (especially during our formative years) there is a distinct possibility thoughts of one would never cross our minds.

Dont think so mate, I mean surely any half well educated individual would wonder what created this enviroment he/she finds themself in.  Nature?  What chain of events took place in order to create the world and the climate of said planet.  Indeed what caused the gasses which made the 'big bang' occur.  Still, he or she could dismiss this as just one of those things beyond human comprehension (as you said in a later post) but you would think an element of wondering would come into there thoughts about what, or indeed who created all of this.

Least I would like to think so

Martyn

You create all of it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quantum physics says so

Fen321 wrote:

Bell wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I would argue otherwise. Pointless stalemate leading ultimately to an infinity of circular arguments. There is not one good reason to suggest why some higher being has a hand in anything, in my mind.

If, in any of our lives, we wandered through life without having been exposed to the concept of 'god' (especially during our formative years) there is a distinct possibility thoughts of one would never cross our minds.

Dont think so mate, I mean surely any half well educated individual would wonder what created this enviroment he/she finds themself in.  Nature?  What chain of events took place in order to create the world and the climate of said planet.  Indeed what caused the gasses which made the 'big bang' occur.  Still, he or she could dismiss this as just one of those things beyond human comprehension (as you said in a later post) but you would think an element of wondering would come into there thoughts about what, or indeed who created all of this.

Least I would like to think so

Martyn

You create all of it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quantum physics says so

What part of Quantum physics says so?

DesertFox423 wrote:

The part where they talk about infinite possibilites not existing until you decide for it to and weird crap like that.

I've done a fair bit of quantum mechanics and I'm not familiar with it saying anything like that. Closest thing I can think of to that is Heisenbergs uncertainty principle, which tells us it is impossible to take absolute measurements of particles momentum (mv) and position at the same time. There are probably theories based around this principle that mention the universe as existing as a series of potentials or something like that, but I can't remember and that wouldn't be conclusive by any means.

I don't like quantum mechanics much, interesting ideas but too much horrible maths - I hate eigenvectors.

Big Bang theory is far more concerned with thermodynamics than quantum mechanics, I believe.

Wow I did not realise that religious people are so ignorant, Not one of you godly people have said anything that is worth reading.... Everyone has the answer either "I believe cause the bible says so" "I believe because mummy and daddy said i had too" "I believe because I dont want to go to hell" or the funniest "someone i know was dying and now they are not, god must be real" (hmm maybe the doctors got it wrong?) I just find it funny, Religion is faith, and is needed by weak people who cant live through life without thinking someone is helping them through, Sure you all say it would not have happened if i did not pray, That is more ignorant than saying God does not exist. I dont have the answer I dont know, but i think their is no way "some dude" created everything here on earth. My question is What will all of you believers say if/when we find life on another planet? due to the fact the planet will not be exactly like earth, you could assume the creatures/life living there will not be like what we are. You all say it is too set up to be self made, but you can find a link to anything if you try hard enough. One more thing, you all keep stating no scientist has seen a creature change from one species to another, Funny that considering evolution takes many, many, many generations to show a huge change.... everything changes slowly, So slow that no one will ever live long wnough to see evolution in all its glory. But in saying that all the religo's will come back with some crappy comment about feeling god in their lives (im sure it was just the flu), and all the non believers will debate back about the bible being fake.... IMO religion=gullability+weakness

instakill wrote:

Wow I did not realise that religious people are so ignorant, Not one of you godly people have said anything that is worth reading.... Everyone has the answer either "I believe cause the bible says so" "I believe because mummy and daddy said i had too" "I believe because I dont want to go to hell" or the funniest "someone i know was dying and now they are not, god must be real" (hmm maybe the doctors got it wrong?) I just find it funny, Religion is faith, and is needed by weak people who cant live through life without thinking someone is helping them through, Sure you all say it would not have happened if i did not pray, That is more ignorant than saying God does not exist. I dont have the answer I dont know, but i think their is no way "some dude" created everything here on earth. My question is What will all of you believers say if/when we find life on another planet? due to the fact the planet will not be exactly like earth, you could assume the creatures/life living there will not be like what we are. You all say it is too set up to be self made, but you can find a link to anything if you try hard enough. One more thing, you all keep stating no scientist has seen a creature change from one species to another, Funny that considering evolution takes many, many, many generations to show a huge change.... everything changes slowly, So slow that no one will ever live long wnough to see evolution in all its glory. But in saying that all the religo's will come back with some crappy comment about feeling god in their lives (im sure it was just the flu), and all the non believers will debate back about the bible being fake.... IMO religion=gullability+weakness

I agree. And as to not seeing evolution in practice. They need to read my example. In Northern England due to coal burning in the 1800s the trees turned slightly black, this allowed mutated brown moths with black pigment to survive better, now the trees are clean the verse has happened. The few brown moths alive and ones that have mutated back from black have the advantage and have survived better.

DesertFox423 wrote:

I don't believe you can be taken seriously if in your first sentence you call the opinion that you yourself do not hold ignorant.

wow, now lets put together a sentence that is understandable

instakill wrote:

Wow I did not realise that religious people are so ignorant, Not one of you godly people have said anything that is worth reading.... Everyone has the answer either "I believe cause the bible says so" "I believe because mummy and daddy said i had too" "I believe because I dont want to go to hell" or the funniest "someone i know was dying and now they are not, god must be real" (hmm maybe the doctors got it wrong?) I just find it funny, Religion is faith, and is needed by weak people who cant live through life without thinking someone is helping them through, Sure you all say it would not have happened if i did not pray, That is more ignorant than saying God does not exist. I dont have the answer I dont know, but i think their is no way "some dude" created everything here on earth. My question is What will all of you believers say if/when we find life on another planet? due to the fact the planet will not be exactly like earth, you could assume the creatures/life living there will not be like what we are. You all say it is too set up to be self made, but you can find a link to anything if you try hard enough. One more thing, you all keep stating no scientist has seen a creature change from one species to another, Funny that considering evolution takes many, many, many generations to show a huge change.... everything changes slowly, So slow that no one will ever live long wnough to see evolution in all its glory. But in saying that all the religo's will come back with some crappy comment about feeling god in their lives (im sure it was just the flu), and all the non believers will debate back about the bible being fake.... IMO religion=gullability+weakness

Tell you what, since you're so smart, why don't you tell us the origin of life?

Tell us your reasons why the Bible is fake.  I think you just haven't taken the time or energy to thoroughly look at the question and analyze the facts.  Come back when you have something constructive to say.  Anyone can flame.

Daysniper wrote:

=ACE=TeX wrote:

I grow weary of the militant atheists here. I would challenge fellow believers to just leave the topics alone. I have a right to believe as I may, without any scrutiny or insult. True ignorance is shown from intolerance and stereotyping people without first-hand insight, not what you see on TV or hear from the media or what you have proved to be true in your own head (your opinion). How dare you judge others and imply ignorance because they don't feel the way you do. I don't see any Christians posting any anti-atheist remarks, promising hellfire and damnation or judging other beliefs. It is only the "militant atheist" crowd that constantly badgers and prods believers.  Do society a favor and keep your selfishness and superiority complex to yourself. I am done with the blatantly insulting remarks and the folks who feel they must disprove God or discourage faith. And BTW, Jesus was a Jew, he was not white, he was not black. The Bible and The Torah make that perfectly clear. And whether you like it or not The Bible and the Torah are ACCEPTED as accurate historical accounts of the Jewish people. I am just waiting for the anti-semitic remarks to come.....

You obviously haven't lived in the South. I'll tell you that I am going to hell because I'm Jewish. You wanna know where I heard that? Yeah, a Christian. Try to have some experience in these matters. Many Christians (not all) proselytize. Many also "promise hellfire and damnation or judge other beliefs". Once again, I'm not saying all.

I live in Dallas, have my whole life. My mother is a Jew, my father a Mc. I would challenge the validity of those "extreme' right wing Christians, like Pat Roberston,Mel Gibson, etc..who are that sort of "crusader". Last time I checked Jesus accepted all who came to him. I have been to synagogues all over Dallas/ Fort Worth and have yet to tell an orthodox that they are going to hell, why? Because it is not a Christians place to judge someone or damn them. I think generalization is the problem here. "Christians" who actively attack non-Christian people are not Christians at all. I have more experience than you would know, as I have been involved in ministries the majority of my life. Jesus gave 2 commandments, 1. Love your neighbor as thyself, 2. Love the Lord God with all your heart. If you follow these commandments then you would never tell someone they are going to hell.

Also, being half-Jew myself ( yep, on my mother's side), I know first-hand that Jews are just as judgmental about Gentiles. So, yeah, we can find examples of "extremists" in all religions. What I am trying to say here is that Christians ( and Jews) are the most persecuted demographic. Everyone is out to disprove them or cast negative images upon them. It really links back to the world actively attacking Jehovah ( God of Israel ) and his children. Are you a practicing Jew? You know that Jews will be persecuted until the coming of the Messiah ( in the Jewish belief) or after the second coming ( in the Christian faith). There are many false prophets and Satan comes as an angel of light, as to cast negative images and twist the Christian and Jewish faith ( The crazy abortion doctor killers to the Kaballah followers), ultimately taking souls with him and destroying the integrity of God's followers. I noticed you said "not all" Christians, but i would challenge that these people who preach damnation will be judged themselves for bearing false witness. There are many who claim to be Christians but are not, a big example is George Bush Jr. A tree is known by it's fruit. And by the "fruits of the spirit" you can tell who is a real Christian and who is not.

Mogura wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

Mogura wrote:

oh he dont exist

Prove it!

i dont have to proov it.

im not so different of you, im a believer  ;-) yeah o believe he dont exist ! i have faith that he dont exist and that all that religius stuff is fake ;-)

you proove it that he exist if you want ;-)

If you'll look back in these posts I have already stated my case.

I'm looking for your reasons.  After all, if you do believe he does not exists, you must have reasons.  Who knows maybe you have a point I have not considered.

GATOR591957 wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

correct.  Only faith can support the belief that there is no God.  It is impossible to prove He does not exist.

Here i'll help you prove he doesn't, and by he i mean the Christian God.

From a Christian view point you have a Deity which is all powerful, all knowing, present, future, past etc. So now here is the kicker. You have this all powerful being create angels one of which is Lucifer. This being is all knowing so he knows very well what this Lucifer is going to do. So here is the catch he willingly creates a being which will now bring about the "fall" of man. So now you have a situation where man is now fallen, imperfect and stuck in this world which he apparently isn't from. So what better way to send himself via incarnation to save them from that which he put them into. You have Jesus whom is now going to save you from that which he created. So essentially you would have no reason for Jesus to save mankind if he had not created Lucifer. So now we have a dilemma here, this perfect Deity, essentially, his left hand is Lucifer and his right had is Jesus, but the catch is we pretend he doesn't know what the left hand is doing and go along with the entire story.


Please explain why God created Lucifer.....and we pretend....that he doesn't know of all the supposed bad things he will do to mankind.

Its all an illusion, a good one at that, but it does not work too well when you have a perfect Deity creating the problems before they start especially since he knows the outcome of everything apparently.

You can't show mercy for something you began, not only that, but to think that God IS portrayed to be the likeness of HUMANS is the ultimate arrogance of this religion. Arrogance in the sense that some how the deity of the Cosmos is going to end up being in the likeness of Humans, which make up a insignificant fraction of not only our Galaxy, but of this Universe.

Lucifer is a fallen Angel.  One who couldn't seem to conform to the heavenly way so to speak.  God allows you the freedom to make your own choices.  You are the one who has to live with the consequences of those choices.  As a Father I allow my children to choose their own path.  I give them guidance and oversight to make sure the mistakes are not detrimental to their life.  I believe God allows us the same freedom.  He has rules, as most Fathers do.  Follow them, or pay the consequences.  Rather simple.

  The Bible states "man was made in his likeness"  meaning we were made after his image.  It's not meant to be arrogant, just a comforting passage that we are alike in image. 

  What's troubling to me is those who blast religion without making an honest effort to understand it.  It's not hard, you pick up a book and read it.  See a minister, priest, rabbi, whoever and talk with them.  They know the answers you seek.  I think some are afraid they will be portrayed as weak so they chose to live in ignorance and shoot from the hip.

You seek a human comparison to God. But you are not an all-powerful, omnipotent being. Your God is. He knows all. He would know what Lucifer would accomplish, would he not? He knows of Lucifer's betrayal, and of his temptation of man. He knows what Adam and Eve would do, would he not? Merely some interesting theological and philosophical questions.

I see the passage stating that "man was made in his likeness" as an example of man's creation of religion. Would it not seem like humans to create a religion that believes we are the superior beings, and the we are a god's vested interest, first and foremost? It is a view incomprehendable of anything but humanity. Of course, this is not proof per se of religion being false, but one view that I take from religion.

Fen321 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

You create all of it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quantum physics says so

What part of Quantum physics says so?

The part where electrons/Nucleus the whole 9 yards acts like a wave of probability existing in MULTIPLE positions simultaneously, but when you choose to take a look at it BAM it becomes a particle in a fixed position of your liking. For the most part though I don't understand why people are still left thinking in the world of static "matter" since well there is no such thing. Not only that but these subatomic particles disappear at of existence then reappear...spooky ain't it.

Take a gander at the structure of atoms and its sub-atomic particles it is MOSTLY empty space

That's a gross simplification of a largely discredited theory.