Wake up. I don't live in America, I just use the pledge as an example. I live in Argentina and the same BS is in our "Jura a la Bandera" (something like the pledge) which says "our beloved God". Should I leave Argentina?|=-sL-.Cujucuyo. wrote:
Yes, it happens also in my native country (El Salvador), and it should stay that way, if some people don't like it then they should get the hell out of the U.S. since they came here to live not to change the way people think, thats why I voted "Yes" on the poll. I hate it when people get 'offended' by something thats on their home country that isn't theirs, take Christmas for example, some idiots found it offensive and now stores and other places must say "Happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", so screw them, if they don't like it then get the hell out!sergeriver wrote:
The Pledge of Allegiance is a promise or oath of allegiance to the United States as represented by its national flag. It says these words: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all.
I'm asking this about the US Pledge of Allegiance just because this is an American forum, but f.i. the same happens in my country, where the majority is Christian and they force you to say similar crap. If you happen to be from another country please tell us if this also happens in your country.
Isn't this a violation to the First Amendment?
Is it right to mix a patriotic thing and religion?
Where is the separation of Church and State?
What about the atheists or those who aren't monotheistic, aren't those Americans?
Poll
Should the Pledge of Allegiance Say "One Nation Under God"?
| Yes | 58% | 58% - 72 | ||||
| No | 41% | 41% - 52 | ||||
| Total: 124 | ||||||
one nation under a groove - FTW!
Would you be happy if the dollar bill would say "We don't trust God"?Pug wrote:
This may have already been said but - "Separation of Church and State" means Churches don't run the country. Pledging allegiance or using cash with in God we trust doesn't mean the Church has been given ANY power to run the country.
Frankly, the whole idea is reaching and is a blunt attempt at political correctness.
Your comment is eggzactly why I have a problem with the arguments about removing any reference or deference to God...."religion over non-religion"??? where in the constitution does it say non-religion? probably in some judicial precendent somewhere eh?sergeriver wrote:
The words "under God" were added in 1954. Despite that, it's a violation to the First Amedment which prohibits the establishment of a national religion by Congress or the preference of one religion over another, or religion over nonreligion.Stingray24 wrote:
Yes, it has always said one nation under God and should stay that way. The US was founded by decidedly Christian people, that is our heritage. The pledge is not a prayer to any specific diety and is not a violation of the 1st amendment. No one is forced to say the pledge if they don't want to and the pledge does not say which God (Jesus, Alllah, Buddha etc etc).
The separation of Church and State is not contained in the US Constitution and should have no bearing on this or any other legal matter. Yet it's mentioned time and time again in an attempt to remove anything remotely acknowledging the existence of God from the symbols of our nation.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
In one of its many definitions the word "Religion" means a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe... This would include atheists who also have a set of beliefs about existence like any thinking human does. That the government respects the de-theismizing ... of the US is in violation of the constitution as it "respects an establishment (since the anti-God people are organized into lobbies - ACLU - they are an establishment of a set of beliefs as well). The ACLU doesn't call itself a religion but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and has the DNA of a duck it is a salamander!
You see anything can be taken apart and made to appear in violation of the constitution!
ANY organized belief system exerting its beliefs through the creation of laws over the people violates Amendment I as far as I am concerned. If the President says a prayer it doesn't make it Law - that is what the thing means. If our Gods, you and I, have different names or none at all let it be so but do not tell me I can't have mine because you don't like hearing it. If a Court places a rendition of the Ten Commandments on its doorstep it isn't imposing a law to follow Judeism or Islam or Christianity on the people therein. It is recognizing the roots of Law. Let's pretend religion had no place in the devine invention of Laws.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" this means to me that the US will not defer to any single set of beliefs regarding spiritual perspectives held by a group. It says "an" not "the" establishment. No preferential treatment to Catholics over Branch Davidian's over Buddhist Monks. Beautiful concept.
Last edited by OpsChief (2006-12-28 09:18:22)
Alistair Campbell has the right idea about religions role in politics.
Together with the Free Exercise Clause, ("or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the religion clauses. This has been interpreted as the prohibition of 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress and later, by a Supreme Court Judge, 2) the preference of one religion over another or of religion over non-religious philosophies in general.OpsChief wrote:
Your comment is eggzactly why I have a problem with the arguments about removing any reference or deference to God...."religion over non-religion"??? where in the constitution does it say non-religion? probably in some judicial precendent somewhere eh?sergeriver wrote:
The words "under God" were added in 1954. Despite that, it's a violation to the First Amedment which prohibits the establishment of a national religion by Congress or the preference of one religion over another, or religion over nonreligion.Stingray24 wrote:
Yes, it has always said one nation under God and should stay that way. The US was founded by decidedly Christian people, that is our heritage. The pledge is not a prayer to any specific diety and is not a violation of the 1st amendment. No one is forced to say the pledge if they don't want to and the pledge does not say which God (Jesus, Alllah, Buddha etc etc).
The separation of Church and State is not contained in the US Constitution and should have no bearing on this or any other legal matter. Yet it's mentioned time and time again in an attempt to remove anything remotely acknowledging the existence of God from the symbols of our nation.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
In one of its many definitions the word "Religion" means a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe... This would include atheists who also have a set of beliefs about existence like any thinking human does. That the government respects the de-theismizing ... of the US is in violation of the constitution as it "respects an establishment (since the anti-God people are organized into lobbies - ACLU - they are an establishment of a set of beliefs as well). The ACLU doesn't call itself a religion but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and has the DNA of a duck it is a salamander!
You see anything can be taken apart and made to appear in violation of the constitution!
ANY organized belief system exerting its beliefs through the creation of laws over the people violates Amendment I as far as I am concerned. If the President says a prayer it doesn't make it Law - that is what the thing means. If our Gods, you and I, have different names or none at all let it be so but do not tell me I can't have mine because you don't like hearing it. If a Court places a rendition of the Ten Commandments on its doorstep it isn't imposing a law to follow Judeism or Islam or Christianity on the people therein. It is recognizing the roots of Law. Let's pretend religion had no place in the devine invention of Laws.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" this means to me that the US will not defer to any single set of beliefs regarding spiritual perspectives held by a group. It says "an" not "the" establishment. No preferential treatment to Catholics over Branch Davidian's over Buddhist Monks. Beautiful concept.
A./ stop whining. its just 1 word. Im an atheist but i still say it. If you have to cry over 1 word in a song that was created by the founding fathers of this country hundreds of years ago, then your a pussy.sergeriver wrote:
The Pledge of Allegiance is a promise or oath of allegiance to the United States as represented by its national flag. It says these words: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all.
I'm asking this about the US Pledge of Allegiance just because this is an American forum, but f.i. the same happens in my country, where the majority is Christian and they force you to say similar crap. If you happen to be from another country please tell us if this also happens in your country.
Isn't this a violation to the First Amendment?
Is it right to mix a patriotic thing and religion?
Where is the separation of Church and State?
What about the atheists or those who aren't monotheistic, aren't those Americans?
B./ if you dont like it dont say it, just dont push your pussyness apon others who might want to say 'Under god'
C./ fail
Last edited by Dezerteagal5 (2006-12-28 09:24:50)
15 more years! 15 more years!
A. The founding fathers of your country didn't say "one nation under God", the under God thing was added in 1954.Dezerteagal5 wrote:
A./ stop whining. its just 1 word. Im an atheist but i still say it. If you have to cry over 1 word in a song that was created by the founding fathers of this country hundreds of years ago, then your a pussy.sergeriver wrote:
The Pledge of Allegiance is a promise or oath of allegiance to the United States as represented by its national flag. It says these words: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all.
I'm asking this about the US Pledge of Allegiance just because this is an American forum, but f.i. the same happens in my country, where the majority is Christian and they force you to say similar crap. If you happen to be from another country please tell us if this also happens in your country.
Isn't this a violation to the First Amendment?
Is it right to mix a patriotic thing and religion?
Where is the separation of Church and State?
What about the atheists or those who aren't monotheistic, aren't those Americans?
B./ if you dont like it dont say it, just dont push your pussyness apon others who might want to say 'Under god'
C./ fail
B. I don't have to say it, I'm not American. I had to say a similar crap in my country with the "our beloved God" thing.
C. The last resource of those without strong arguments.
Sigh...
Warnings have been issued. Keep this fight clean or keep your posts outta the D&ST section.
This is the only warning.
KJ
Warnings have been issued. Keep this fight clean or keep your posts outta the D&ST section.
This is the only warning.
KJ
So let me get this straight - you honestly believe that by including "In God we Trust" on the dollar bill that Churches run the country?sergeriver wrote:
Would you be happy if the dollar bill would say "We don't trust God"?Pug wrote:
This may have already been said but - "Separation of Church and State" means Churches don't run the country. Pledging allegiance or using cash with in God we trust doesn't mean the Church has been given ANY power to run the country.
Frankly, the whole idea is reaching and is a blunt attempt at political correctness.
In all of the items you have cited - first amendment, patriotism v religion, Church v State, athetists v religion - do not equal what you are implying. If you don't see the flaw in your logic, well then don't cry for me Argentina.
You need to clarify...you know the one where you believe it's not PC to include "Under God"...instead of the erroneous belief that the phrase dictates reality.
You are trying to run a dolphin in a horse race.
You're quoting verbage on Wikipedia regarding someone's interpretation. I prefer wording from the Constitution.
Warnings for what? I must've missed a post or two.Kung Jew wrote:
Sigh...
Warnings have been issued. Keep this fight clean or keep your posts outta the D&ST section.
This is the only warning.
KJ
That's quite a ridiculous idea whatever way you look at it. I'm sure God's handy enough with lightning bolts and the like to protect heaven from terrorists, and even if Satan decided to invade, the Marines aren't going to be able to do much about it.deeznutz1245 wrote:
In the Marine Corps Hymn (which you are forced so sing if you are a US Marine) the last verse says: " If the Army and the Navy, ever look on Heavens scenes, they find the streets are guarded, by United States Marines". Should we change that too?sergeriver wrote:
But it's the same for non religious persons who want to promise their loyalty to their country. What about them? If you don't include the words "under God", everyone can say it. If the religious persons want to acknowledge God, they are free to go to church or wherever they go. But putting the loyalty to your country with your religious beliefs together is wrong.deeznutz1245 wrote:
I am not a religous man. I honestly believe that organized religions are elaborate businesses that just cluster fuck everyone else trying to co-exist. But that is my opinion and holds no value because it is just an opinion. What my point is, there are MANY religious people who are very peaceful and kind. Wouldnt taking away their right to say it be equally offensive to them? If something is not apprehensive or threatening then dont do it. Leve it be and dont participate. I am a heterosexual, should I try and make gay people illegal? Every month when I pay my cable bill I am being FORCED to pay for the 2 fucking Spanish channels that I do not want. I could opt to not get cable (thats not happening) but I dont. That is money that I have labored to earn making it more offensive than anything to me.
Did you know that God loves the Marines?ghettoperson wrote:
That's quite a ridiculous idea whatever way you look at it. I'm sure God's handy enough with lightning bolts and the like to protect heaven from terrorists, and even if Satan decided to invade, the Marines aren't going to be able to do much about it.deeznutz1245 wrote:
In the Marine Corps Hymn (which you are forced so sing if you are a US Marine) the last verse says: " If the Army and the Navy, ever look on Heavens scenes, they find the streets are guarded, by United States Marines". Should we change that too?sergeriver wrote:
But it's the same for non religious persons who want to promise their loyalty to their country. What about them? If you don't include the words "under God", everyone can say it. If the religious persons want to acknowledge God, they are free to go to church or wherever they go. But putting the loyalty to your country with your religious beliefs together is wrong.
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman wrote:
God has a hard-on for marines because we kill everything we see! He plays His games, we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before the Marine Corps! So you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps!
religion should handle only spiritual things, and leave politics, military and other serius stuff to other.
every time in history when religion start makeing politics, it finish in bloodbath and overall mess.
every time in history when religion start makeing politics, it finish in bloodbath and overall mess.
You should have asked whether the pledge of allegiance should be changed not to say "nation under God".
If a new nation was born today than I say don't include God in its pledge of allegiance. I know that you are not pledging allegiance to God but the the Nation but non the less its just a cause for confusion and confrontation.
But since the wording for American Plledge of Allegiance was coined long time ago and its part of tradition I think it should not be changed. I, as a non Christian, wouldnt have any problems with it. I would have any problems with swearing in court with my hand on a Bible. And I don't have any problems with saying "Merry Christmas"...
If a new nation was born today than I say don't include God in its pledge of allegiance. I know that you are not pledging allegiance to God but the the Nation but non the less its just a cause for confusion and confrontation.
But since the wording for American Plledge of Allegiance was coined long time ago and its part of tradition I think it should not be changed. I, as a non Christian, wouldnt have any problems with it. I would have any problems with swearing in court with my hand on a Bible. And I don't have any problems with saying "Merry Christmas"...
I forgot that bit.cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:
Did you know that God loves the Marines?ghettoperson wrote:
That's quite a ridiculous idea whatever way you look at it. I'm sure God's handy enough with lightning bolts and the like to protect heaven from terrorists, and even if Satan decided to invade, the Marines aren't going to be able to do much about it.deeznutz1245 wrote:
In the Marine Corps Hymn (which you are forced so sing if you are a US Marine) the last verse says: " If the Army and the Navy, ever look on Heavens scenes, they find the streets are guarded, by United States Marines". Should we change that too?Gunnery Sergeant Hartman wrote:
God has a hard-on for marines because we kill everything we see! He plays His games, we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before the Marine Corps! So you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps!
world would be much better without religion
Yes.
If we cannot update the 2nd ammendment to suit modern times, then why change anything at all.
If we cannot update the 2nd ammendment to suit modern times, then why change anything at all.
Just say it without saying "under God" if you don't believe in any god whatsoever and remember that God in that context doesn't = Christian God, it could mean Allah if you're Muslim or Moses if you're Jewish or Krishna if you're Hindu or Little Green Men if you believe in Scientology. It's just because most of us have grown up in an English Speaking Christian environment that we automatically think that God = Christianity. That's not the case.
QFE, as blunt as it gets...Pug wrote:
This may have already been said but - "Separation of Church and State" means Churches don't run the country. Pledging allegiance or using cash with in God we trust doesn't mean the Church has been given ANY power to run the country.
Frankly, the whole idea is reaching and is a blunt attempt at political correctness.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Well, religion does exist. And its not going away anytime soon. And the fact is, most people DO believe in God.Mogura wrote:
world would be much better without religion
The truth is, religion isn't bad at all. Its fanatics and those that interpret religion for their own agenda that are bad. If there wasn't religion, these people would still exist, and would find other means to do what they do.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
From the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5:33 onwards):
Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.'
But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;
or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes', and your 'No', 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
To a casual, atheist reader of the above text, it would seem that a Christian should a) cringe at the inclusion of God in the Pledge of Allegiance and b) a Christian should avoid taking the pledge altogether.
Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.'
But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;
or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes', and your 'No', 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
To a casual, atheist reader of the above text, it would seem that a Christian should a) cringe at the inclusion of God in the Pledge of Allegiance and b) a Christian should avoid taking the pledge altogether.
the problem is that most of the religius people, interpret religion for theyr own profitEVieira wrote:
Well, religion does exist. And its not going away anytime soon. And the fact is, most people DO believe in God.Mogura wrote:
world would be much better without religion
The truth is, religion isn't bad at all. Its fanatics and those that interpret religion for their own agenda that are bad. If there wasn't religion, these people would still exist, and would find other means to do what they do.
No, you are just assuming that. I know alot of people who go to church and are very decent, law abiding citizens, and I bet you and others here do too. And I'm pretty sure most of them don't mind the word God in the pledge, but that is my assumption as well.Mogura wrote:
the problem is that most of the religius people, interpret religion for theyr own profitEVieira wrote:
Well, religion does exist. And its not going away anytime soon. And the fact is, most people DO believe in God.Mogura wrote:
world would be much better without religion
The truth is, religion isn't bad at all. Its fanatics and those that interpret religion for their own agenda that are bad. If there wasn't religion, these people would still exist, and would find other means to do what they do.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)