KillerKane0
Member
+53|6884|Calgary, Alberta
The problem is that the history of WWII is still written along national lines.  Each country will claim that its participation was important because its people were killed and wounded in the victory over the Axis.  This is especially true for Britain, the Soviet Union (Russia) and the US, who bore most of the burden.  Canadian historians, whom I know most about, usually say how their country was an important element.  However, they exaggerate it for the purposes of the home market. 

My firm belief is that all three - UK, USSR, US - have an equal claim to the final victory, yet all were interdependent. 

The British deserve credit for standing alone against Hitler for 1940-41, keeping the war going in the Middle East, and providing the essential bases for the invasion of Europe in 1944 and the Allied combined bomber offensive.  However, they could not have done that without US Lend-Lease Aid or the willingness of the Soviets to bear much of the Nazi war effort for 1941-44.

The Soviets suffered far more than the Americans, British and other western Allies, yet their victories over the nazis were some of the most important.  Stalingrad being perhaps the single most important, but also Kursk and the massive offensive operations in 1944-45 which impressed everyone.  However, they couldn't have done this without US Lend-Lease aid, particularly in trucks because the Red Army lacked mobility.  They too demanded a western front to take off some of the pressure on their Eastern war.

The United States had the industrial output that kept both the British and Soviets in the war far longer than their own resources could have lasted.  But their effort was not wholly industrial and economic; the US put 16 million men into the war, and waged it in every theater at high cost.  They provided most of the effort against Japan - the British helped immensely in Burma (thank you General Slim and 14th Army), and the Anzacs in New Guinea - but 80% of the effort was American.  In Europe, the US provided more than half of the Allied Forces, and the crucial leadership through Eisenhower.  Patton deserves special credit for being the best ass-kicker in the west.  But they could not have won without the Soviets in the East and the British providing the bases in the UK and the Mediterranean.
Cheez
Herman is a warmaphrodite
+1,027|6678|King Of The Islands

You people don't know anything about history. Albert Einstein went back in time and assassinated Hitler, thus preventing WWII altogether.
My state was founded by Batman. Your opinion is invalid.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6946|67.222.138.85

Cheez wrote:

You people don't know anything about history. Albert Einstein went back in time and assassinated Hitler, thus preventing WWII altogether.
Winnar
chittydog
less busy
+586|7074|Kubra, Damn it!

Cheez wrote:

You people don't know anything about history. Albert Einstein went back in time and assassinated Hitler, thus preventing WWII altogether.
You sure it was Einstein? I thought it was Mr. T...
adam1503
Member
+85|6627|Manchester, UK

CyrusTheVirus wrote:

Well let me see. We're the richest country in the world. We have the best military in the world. We're the leading country in the world in innovation and technology development. We selflessly step in to liberate oppressed people across the globe, including Western Europe in WWII. Better? You do the math.
Richest? Maybe, but your currency is slipping in value compared to other currencies.  Your country is on the verge of a recession.

The best military?  The right to own firearms is at the core of what it is to be American.  It is no surprise that you claim to have the best military, you appear obsessed with guns.

Innovation and technology?  Excuse me? Which country couldnt build the bomb without the help of EUROPEAN scientists?  You pump all your money into finding oil and heating the planet, and dont do enough to rescue your own people in New Orleans after Katrina.

Selfless? You stand idly by while genocide destroys nations in African countries.  You sell arms to the middle east.  You trained Al Qaeda for God's sake.  Any you didnt stop black/white segragation in the US until the mid 20th century.


BUT this thread is about America's role in WWII, not about their claim that they rule the world.  Please, if you want to talk about that, start a new thread or find a relevant one.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6883
chris gaines?
Cheez
Herman is a warmaphrodite
+1,027|6678|King Of The Islands

chittydog wrote:

Cheez wrote:

You people don't know anything about history. Albert Einstein went back in time and assassinated Hitler, thus preventing WWII altogether.
You sure it was Einstein? I thought it was Mr. T...
Not according to the late Westwood Studios.
My state was founded by Batman. Your opinion is invalid.
Mr.Pieeater
Member
+116|6863|Cherry Pie
FIRST OFF:  When in the hell did America say it was "soley" responsible for winning the war.  Anyone with common sense knows that we got in it late.  But still we DID do our part and lost a lot of lives in the process.

SECONDLY:  The US DID keep the war from being any longer after dropping the two bombs on Japan.  Who knows how many Allied lives would have been lost and how long the war would have been if the US wouldn't have dropped the bombs.  The Japanese are a formidable opponent and I believe it would have been an even longer and more bloody war had the 2 bombs not forced the Japanese to surreneder.

THIRD:  All you going to do is piss people off by making stupid ass posts that are complete bullshit.  I don't even try to argue with stupid people.  And you my friend, are one of them.

Merry Christmas!
Cheers!
P**
Cheez
Herman is a warmaphrodite
+1,027|6678|King Of The Islands

Mr.Pieeater wrote:

FIRST OFF:  When in the hell did America say it was "soley" responsible for winning the war.  Anyone with common sense knows that we got in it late.  But still we DID do our part and lost a lot of lives in the process.

SECONDLY:  The US DID keep the war from being any longer after dropping the two bombs on Japan.  Who knows how many Allied lives would have been lost and how long the war would have been if the US wouldn't have dropped the bombs.  The Japanese are a formidable opponent and I believe it would have been an even longer and more bloody war had the 2 bombs not forced the Japanese to surreneder.

THIRD:  All you going to do is piss people off by making stupid ass posts that are complete bullshit.  I don't even try to argue with stupid people.  And you my friend, are one of them.

Merry Christmas!
Cheers!
P**
FIRST OFF: Many American's (even on these forums) still have an attitude that they 'saved Europe from the Nazis'

SECONDLY: Didn't the war in Europe already finish 5 months earlier?

THIRD: This topic has been discussed to death.
My state was founded by Batman. Your opinion is invalid.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS
Wow.

We're still stuck 60 years ago? I couldn't give two shits about 'who won WWII' (exaggerated for the purposes of the debate) - and I object to people using the excuse 'well-we-saved-your-ass-in-WWII-so-you-should-help-us-now'.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
evilcartman99
The Octagon
+18|6652|da ville, va

Cheez wrote:

chittydog wrote:

Cheez wrote:

You people don't know anything about history. Albert Einstein went back in time and assassinated Hitler, thus preventing WWII altogether.
You sure it was Einstein? I thought it was Mr. T...
Not according to the late Westwood Studios.
Fuck Einstein and Mr. T
It was Chuck
Mr.Pieeater
Member
+116|6863|Cherry Pie

adam1503 wrote:

CyrusTheVirus wrote:

Well let me see. We're the richest country in the world. We have the best military in the world. We're the leading country in the world in innovation and technology development. We selflessly step in to liberate oppressed people across the globe, including Western Europe in WWII. Better? You do the math.
Richest? Maybe, but your currency is slipping in value compared to other currencies.  Your country is on the verge of a recession.

The best military?  The right to own firearms is at the core of what it is to be American.  It is no surprise that you claim to have the best military, you appear obsessed with guns.

Innovation and technology?  Excuse me? Which country couldnt build the bomb without the help of EUROPEAN scientists?  You pump all your money into finding oil and heating the planet, and dont do enough to rescue your own people in New Orleans after Katrina.

Selfless? You stand idly by while genocide destroys nations in African countries.  You sell arms to the middle east.  You trained Al Qaeda for God's sake.  Any you didnt stop black/white segragation in the US until the mid 20th century.


BUT this thread is about America's role in WWII, not about their claim that they rule the world.  Please, if you want to talk about that, start a new thread or find a relevant one.
Here are my replies to all of your uninformed statements:
1.  We are the richest Country in the world that is a fact.  Our currency is still at average levels.  And our economy is definately NOT on the verge of a recession, especially since the Stock Market is at Pre-9/11 levels.  This was a big thing that the President announced before the Congressional elections recently.  Our economy is doing great.  You obviously have no idea what your talking about.

2. The military:  A population owning guns has nothing to do with the best military.  Having weapons that can wipe out 20+ enemy tanks at once and cause the rest of the Iraqi tank division to surrender to an F-18 after seeing the carnage that a simple bomb just caused, makes for the best military.  We have weapons that are so brutal we don't even want to use them...  That tanks buster bomb is an example...  Our military spending causes us to have the best military and we are so far ahead it will be a long time before we are overtaken technology wise.

3. Where would the PC you are using right now be without an American company called Microsoft?  Or even Apple for that matter???  Or the INTERNET!!!  Using something invented in the 1940's is not an example of United States Technology.  Don't be a fool.

And as far as the Katrina thing, people need to realize that the only thing that can help them is themselves.  Being a lazy-ass sitting on welfare and waiting for the government to come help you is a bunch of bullshit.  Those people just sat there on their fat asses doing nothing but saying, "Where ma money Mr. Bush!!?"...  And besides, the main reason for that was the Governor of Louisiana no doing his job properly...  If you knew anything about it you would have known that.

4. The Russians were attacking AlQaeda, so we were helping them.  They were our allies at that time, but how were we to know they would become what they were today.  CAN YOU PREDICT THINGS LIKE THAT?  BECAUSE I KNOW THAT EVERY GOVERNMENT IN THE WORLD WOULD HIRE YOU... 

Africa is a crazy place, thats not our fault.  We do A LOT of aid for the world already.   If your so concerned with the poor old Africans then go donate YOUR money and make a difference big-man...
Mr.Pieeater
Member
+116|6863|Cherry Pie

Cheez wrote:

SECONDLY: Didn't the war in Europe already finish 5 months earlier?
When did I ever say anything about the war in Europe in my statement?
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6929|Tampa Bay Florida

KillerKane0 wrote:

The problem is that the history of WWII is still written along national lines.  Each country will claim that its participation was important because its people were killed and wounded in the victory over the Axis.  This is especially true for Britain, the Soviet Union (Russia) and the US, who bore most of the burden.  Canadian historians, whom I know most about, usually say how their country was an important element.  However, they exaggerate it for the purposes of the home market. 

My firm belief is that all three - UK, USSR, US - have an equal claim to the final victory, yet all were interdependent. 

The British deserve credit for standing alone against Hitler for 1940-41, keeping the war going in the Middle East, and providing the essential bases for the invasion of Europe in 1944 and the Allied combined bomber offensive.  However, they could not have done that without US Lend-Lease Aid or the willingness of the Soviets to bear much of the Nazi war effort for 1941-44.

The Soviets suffered far more than the Americans, British and other western Allies, yet their victories over the nazis were some of the most important.  Stalingrad being perhaps the single most important, but also Kursk and the massive offensive operations in 1944-45 which impressed everyone.  However, they couldn't have done this without US Lend-Lease aid, particularly in trucks because the Red Army lacked mobility.  They too demanded a western front to take off some of the pressure on their Eastern war.

The United States had the industrial output that kept both the British and Soviets in the war far longer than their own resources could have lasted.  But their effort was not wholly industrial and economic; the US put 16 million men into the war, and waged it in every theater at high cost.  They provided most of the effort against Japan - the British helped immensely in Burma (thank you General Slim and 14th Army), and the Anzacs in New Guinea - but 80% of the effort was American.  In Europe, the US provided more than half of the Allied Forces, and the crucial leadership through Eisenhower.  Patton deserves special credit for being the best ass-kicker in the west.  But they could not have won without the Soviets in the East and the British providing the bases in the UK and the Mediterranean.
QFE

But on a related note, yeah, a lot of Americans are just full of bull.  Not most of us, but some are....
ReDevilJR
Member
+106|6590

Mr.Pieeater wrote:

adam1503 wrote:

CyrusTheVirus wrote:

Well let me see. We're the richest country in the world. We have the best military in the world. We're the leading country in the world in innovation and technology development. We selflessly step in to liberate oppressed people across the globe, including Western Europe in WWII. Better? You do the math.
Richest? Maybe, but your currency is slipping in value compared to other currencies.  Your country is on the verge of a recession.

The best military?  The right to own firearms is at the core of what it is to be American.  It is no surprise that you claim to have the best military, you appear obsessed with guns.

Innovation and technology?  Excuse me? Which country couldnt build the bomb without the help of EUROPEAN scientists?  You pump all your money into finding oil and heating the planet, and dont do enough to rescue your own people in New Orleans after Katrina.

Selfless? You stand idly by while genocide destroys nations in African countries.  You sell arms to the middle east.  You trained Al Qaeda for God's sake.  Any you didnt stop black/white segragation in the US until the mid 20th century.


BUT this thread is about America's role in WWII, not about their claim that they rule the world.  Please, if you want to talk about that, start a new thread or find a relevant one.
Here are my replies to all of your uninformed statements:
1.  We are the richest Country in the world that is a fact.  Our currency is still at average levels.  And our economy is definately NOT on the verge of a recession, especially since the Stock Market is at Pre-9/11 levels.  This was a big thing that the President announced before the Congressional elections recently.  Our economy is doing great.  You obviously have no idea what your talking about.

2. The military:  A population owning guns has nothing to do with the best military.  Having weapons that can wipe out 20+ enemy tanks at once and cause the rest of the Iraqi tank division to surrender to an F-18 after seeing the carnage that a simple bomb just caused, makes for the best military.  We have weapons that are so brutal we don't even want to use them...  That tanks buster bomb is an example...  Our military spending causes us to have the best military and we are so far ahead it will be a long time before we are overtaken technology wise.

3. Where would the PC you are using right now be without an American company called Microsoft?  Or even Apple for that matter???  Or the INTERNET!!!  Using something invented in the 1940's is not an example of United States Technology.  Don't be a fool.

And as far as the Katrina thing, people need to realize that the only thing that can help them is themselves.  Being a lazy-ass sitting on welfare and waiting for the government to come help you is a bunch of bullshit.  Those people just sat there on their fat asses doing nothing but saying, "Where ma money Mr. Bush!!?"...  And besides, the main reason for that was the Governor of Louisiana no doing his job properly...  If you knew anything about it you would have known that.

4. The Russians were attacking AlQaeda, so we were helping them.  They were our allies at that time, but how were we to know they would become what they were today.  CAN YOU PREDICT THINGS LIKE THAT?  BECAUSE I KNOW THAT EVERY GOVERNMENT IN THE WORLD WOULD HIRE YOU... 

Africa is a crazy place, thats not our fault.  We do A LOT of aid for the world already.   If your so concerned with the poor old Africans then go donate YOUR money and make a difference big-man...
defiantly true on katrina, i can't stand those people who point the blame on bush, fucking liberals...
adam1503
Member
+85|6627|Manchester, UK
And you believe your president?
Bosjesman1
Member
+2|6942|Heteren, The Netherlands
I don’t care if America had a crucial roll in the war. They came here to fight for us that is the most important part. And if they didn’t entered the war I would be an soviet citizen now... I live in Holland and I guess Stalin and is troops would invade the hole of Europe if there was no America that stopped them.
https://www.tomgpalmer.com/images/Soviet%20Flag%20Over%20Reichstag.jpg
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7005|UK

ReDevilJR wrote:

If the US didn't join the war, Germany would've taken over. Everyone was evading to England, hadn't it been for US. Germany would've conquered the world. The US DID play a crucial role. End of story.
lol, thats so comical it doesnt deserve an answer.
RavyGravy
Son.
+617|6644|NSW, Australia

ReDevilJR wrote:

If the US didn't join the war, Germany would've taken over. Everyone was evading to England, hadn't it been for US. Germany would've conquered the world. The US DID play a crucial role. End of story.
but thats what he is saying america thinks it played a bigger role then the rest of the world dose
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6885

Spark wrote:

Wow.

We're still stuck 60 years ago? I couldn't give two shits about 'who won WWII' (exaggerated for the purposes of the debate) - and I object to people using the excuse 'well-we-saved-your-ass-in-WWII-so-you-should-help-us-now'.
My dead grandfather was a sniper in that war and almost starved to death when he was taken prisoner by the nazis. That's why it's still relevant. Not to mention the millions of people who are still alive. If people want to talk about WWII, let them talk about it.
RavyGravy
Son.
+617|6644|NSW, Australia

ok hows about this EVERY COUNTRY THAT LOST A LIFE IN THAT DAMN WAR WAS CRUCIAL
Doperwt.
Anouk, Slayers little bitch
+80|6633|Belgium

Cheez wrote:

Mr.Pieeater wrote:

FIRST OFF:  When in the hell did America say it was "soley" responsible for winning the war.  Anyone with common sense knows that we got in it late.  But still we DID do our part and lost a lot of lives in the process.

SECONDLY:  The US DID keep the war from being any longer after dropping the two bombs on Japan.  Who knows how many Allied lives would have been lost and how long the war would have been if the US wouldn't have dropped the bombs.  The Japanese are a formidable opponent and I believe it would have been an even longer and more bloody war had the 2 bombs not forced the Japanese to surreneder.

THIRD:  All you going to do is piss people off by making stupid ass posts that are complete bullshit.  I don't even try to argue with stupid people.  And you my friend, are one of them.

Merry Christmas!
Cheers!
P**
FIRST OFF: Many American's (even on these forums) still have an attitude that they 'saved Europe from the Nazis'

SECONDLY: Didn't the war in Europe already finish 5 months earlier?

THIRD: This topic has been discussed to death.
First: you still  id your part indeed and we are gfratitude for that
Second: Japan was already going to surrender, but the USA anted to test their new toy. And it was an succes.
third: completely right
Doperwt.
Anouk, Slayers little bitch
+80|6633|Belgium

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Spark wrote:

Wow.

We're still stuck 60 years ago? I couldn't give two shits about 'who won WWII' (exaggerated for the purposes of the debate) - and I object to people using the excuse 'well-we-saved-your-ass-in-WWII-so-you-should-help-us-now'.
My dead grandfather was a sniper in that war and almost starved to death when he was taken prisoner by the nazis. That's why it's still relevant. Not to mention the millions of people who are still alive. If people want to talk about WWII, let them talk about it.
My grandfather, grandmother, aunts, uncles, were casualtie of that war. They were transported to the camps and starved or almost starved to death there. An enlisted soldier knew what was going to happen, but the civilians who have been suffering for 5 years, those are the people that matters. I think you forget that sometimes.
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7005|UK
Pieeater...

1. Your ecconomy is doing the worst its done in years, let me put it in simple terms, $2 per £1...

2. Your technology isnt the best, Challenger 2 is the best allround tank no doubt, the new missle destroyer that England is introducing in 2009 is the most technologically advanced warship ever.

3. WWW what you are infact using was invented by a British scientist.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6840|132 and Bush

Vilham wrote:

Pieeater...

1. Your ecconomy is doing the worst its done in years, let me put it in simple terms, $2 per £1...
Let me give you a days worth of news on the US economy.

Investment banks post record 2006 profit
NEW YORK - Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns sent a not-so-subtle message to Wall Street on Thursday when announcing 2006 results — the word "record" appears a combined 37 times in their earnings reports
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061214/ap_ … fi/economy


Jobless claims drop for 2nd straight wk.
WASHINGTON - The number of Americans filing applications for unemployment benefits dropped sharply for a second straight week, pushing total claims down to the lowest level in two months.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061214/bs_ … economy_dc


Dollar gains as US economic indicators show strength AFP - Thu Dec 14, 5:14 PM ET

NEW YORK (AFP) - The dollar extended its rebound as market concerns about a faltering US economy appeared to ease in the wake of the latest data.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061214/bs_afp/forexus

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. economic growth will remain steady in the next year as inflation moderates, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce forecast on Thursday, brushing aside concerns that the downturn in housing could spark a full-blown recession.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061214/bs_ … chamber_dc


Dow sets record close
NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. stocks surged on Thursday, driving the Dow industrials to a record close on strong earnings from companies such as investment bank Bear Stearns Cos. and an improving outlook for the U.S. economy.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/markets_stocks_dc


NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. stocks surged on Thursday, driving the Dow industrials to a record close on strong earnings from companies such as investment bank Bear Stearns Cos. and an improving outlook for the U.S. economy.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061215/ap_ … all_street


#  Dollar gains against euro amid fading concerns about US economy AFP - Thu Dec 14, 12:59 PM ET

LONDON (AFP) - The dollar moved higher against the euro as market concerns about the fate of the US economy appeared to ease.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061214/bs_afp/forexeurope

Just today

There is a reason it's the worlds largest economy.. it is resilient.

Last edited by Kmarion (2006-12-15 02:06:49)

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