sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6750|Argentina
Recently, a friend of mine recommended me to read the book Europe at War 1939-1945: No Simple Victory by Norman Davies.  I searched the web for some reviews and I found this article.
This English historian basically says that UK and America were minor partners in the defeat of Nazis, and the real winners were the Soviets.

Some of the highlights are:
Both the British and the American public have long been told that “we won the war” and D-Day, in particular, has been built up as the decisive moment.  Since 75%-80% of all German losses were inflicted on the eastern front it follows that the efforts of the western allies accounted for only 20%-25%. Furthermore, since the British Army deployed no more than 28 divisions as compared with the American army’s 99, the British contribution to victory must have been in the region of 5%-6%. Britons who imagine that “we won the war” need to think again.  The 100 divisions that General George C Marshall and his staff set as their target for mobilisation were overshadowed 2.5:1 by German divisions and 3-4:1 by the Red Army’s divisions.  The Third Reich was largely defeated not by the forces of liberal democracy, but by the forces of another mass-murdering tyranny. The liberators of Auschwitz were servants of a regime that ran a much larger network of concentration camps of its own.  In the greater part of Europe one totalitarian tyranny was replaced by another. More often than not, the rhetoric of “freedom” and “liberation” was misplaced.

Did the Soviets defeat the Nazis mostly alone, or do UK and US deserve the same credit?  I suppose we can't tell without reading the book, but what do you think of this new perpective on WWII?  Please, don't flame because I didn't buy the book yet, and this is what Norman Davies thinks.
Techworld
Banned
+17|6395
We (UK) won
..teddy..jimmy
Member
+1,393|6642
Mmm, yes Britain and thre US do deserve credit because they were also fighting a war with Germany on one of a few fronts.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6683|Tampa Bay Florida
I agree with what he says (but of course he knows much more about it than all of us).  I think Americans and British like to give themselves more credit for winning the war then we really deserve.
{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank
U.S. > Iran
+497|6571|Florida
Hmm....well, of course living in the states, I grew up always being told throughout my history classes that the Nazis controlled Europe, and met most resistance from the Soviets.  But I think I remember the Nazis actually occupying quite a bit of Soviet land.  If the US, UK, Canadian and Australian forces had not done the D-Day invasion, nor got too involved (by this I mean the UK defending their land, and the US not getting into it), the Nazis would have had alot more forces to fight the Soviets with, which could have, and probably would have had a much different outcome.

I believe the US, UK, Canada and Australia deserve just as much credit as the Soviets do.  If it werent for all of us, the Soviets would have collapsed most likely (no pun intended, because they did anyway later on).

And because of this -

..teddy..jimmy wrote:

Mmm, yes Britain and thre US do deserve credit because they were also fighting a war with Germany on one of a few fronts.
The US and UK were fighting on more than just one front.  North Africa and Italy were some major points of battle as well.

Last edited by {BMF}*Frank_The_Tank (2006-12-02 12:52:51)

^*AlphA*^
F*ckers
+3,135|6731|The Hague, Netherlands

The Russians sacrificed a lot so did the Americans, Brits, Resistance people etc

they all helped to win the war..

@techworld, eat a burger
https://bf3s.com/sigs/36eac2cb6af70a43508fd8d1c93d3201f4e23435.png
{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank
U.S. > Iran
+497|6571|Florida

^*AlphA*^ wrote:

The Russians sacrificed a lot so did the Americans, Brits, Resistance people etc

they all helped to win the war..

@techworld, eat a burger
did you mean to say a burger, or a booger?
^*AlphA*^
F*ckers
+3,135|6731|The Hague, Netherlands

{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:

^*AlphA*^ wrote:

The Russians sacrificed a lot so did the Americans, Brits, Resistance people etc

they all helped to win the war..

@techworld, eat a burger
did you mean to say a burger, or a booger?
both can do
https://bf3s.com/sigs/36eac2cb6af70a43508fd8d1c93d3201f4e23435.png
SwampDog
Member
+12|6463|Luton, England
It`s not as clear cut as that. If the British had lost the battle of Britain, then the Germans could`ve pushed alot more troops into Russia that were other wise tied up on the western coast and north africa. These added troops could`ve made all the difference and Russia might have gone the same way as everyone else. You`ve also got to remember that the U.S. and British forces were also tied up fighting Japan.
The states in Pacific and the Brits in Burma and Thailand.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6677|United States of America
Well the total casualties of Germany also were about 1/3 that suffered by the Ruskies so their KDR isn't that great. I think that's where the idea of the West winning came from. Anyone could win by throwing wave after wave of men at the enemy until they run out of bullets/supplies and starve to death. With that kind of population the Russians didn't even lose a large percentage of the total populous.
kessel!
Peruvian Cocaine
+261|6758|Toronto Canada
The german defeat at Stalingrad was a major turning point in the war.
De_Jappe
Triarii
+432|6520|Belgium

Credit to belgium. Because of us, the 'blitzkrieg' plan to conquer west europe before the red army could mobilise didn't succeeded.
But indeed, most credit should go to the Sovjets, red army. Don't forget they fought from 40(39)-45 non stop. The americans only joined late but their help was a big help for the allies.
The britains (especially their airforce) was important though. You can't say that their help was for nothing, but the historian is right that the biggest blow was made by the sovjets (and they also got the heaviest blow back of course).
But I don't think this should be a game about who was most important. The most important thing is they all worked together, and because of that they succeeded. The greatest hero's are those that fought 5 years and saw their friends die, yet continued fighting.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6488
The Allies helped, but if anyone won the war, it's Russia.
liquix
Member
+51|6447|Peoples Republic of Portland
Actually, I would thank the Russians for a lot in WWII. Putting pressure on mainland Japan from their side, depleting the hell out of the German Army, and losing 20 million lives to the war cost. I realize most of us have only studied history in your grade school American history classes so you might not believe that the surrender of Japan had much to do with pressure on their mainland from the Russian army. This is not to say that the Australians, uk, Americans, etc, didn't put in their due worth. Though, I would not be so foolish to believe that the American Businesses did NOT put money into Germany during the war.

I personally would argue that if Hitler had not been using amphetamines he would not have made the blundering decisions that he did in the latter years of the War. Without the amphetamine I think we would be living in a very different would today.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6750|Argentina

DesertFox423 wrote:

Well the total casualties of Germany also were about 1/3 that suffered by the Ruskies so their KDR isn't that great. I think that's where the idea of the West winning came from. Anyone could win by throwing wave after wave of men at the enemy until they run out of bullets/supplies and starve to death. With that kind of population the Russians didn't even lose a large percentage of the total populous.
This part is interesting:
The statistic of 27M Soviet “war losses”, which appeared in the 1960s, concealed the fact that many of them were not Russians and many were victims not of Hitler but of Stalin.  One can argue about the similarities and differences of the Holocaust and the Gulag and it is obviously a mistake to equate the two. On the other hand, it is also a mistake to pretend that Stalinist crimes can somehow be absolved because Stalin was a doughty champion of the anti-Nazi cause.

So, we can't know which the Soviets KDR was.
[TFT]Hostage
Never fear, I is here
+11|6547
All 3 deserve credit, the Western front did not inflict as many casualties as the east because of a higher surrender rate. No German wanted to be cpatured to the Russia who would treat them as bad as they treated Russian prisoners, they wanted to be captured by the British of American who strictly follow the "rules of war". Numbers do nto mean everything, D-Day made 2 fronts. WW1 was on 2 fronts until Russia made a cease fire and called it quits thus doubling the forces on the Western front. the combined eforts of UK, USA, and USSR attacking both side equated to winning the war.
JG1567JG
Member
+110|6581|United States of America
The allies won the war and the axis lost.  Germany, Italy, and Japan all lost.  The U.S., The U.K., and Russia won. Italy did switch to the allied side after they were defeated so in a way they lost then won.

The U.S., U.K., and Russia didn't do it on their own.

P.S. Not ment to insult the many other countries that fought on the allied side of WW2. (Canada, Australia, and many more)
Mr.Casual
p-n*|3eergogglz
+136|6502|Minnesota eh
Who cares what the awnser is. They all helped, doesnt matter if one helped more.
TheDarkRaven
ATG's First Disciple
+263|6617|Birmingham, UK
If Britain had given peace to Germany, the Russia would've been a contentious issue. Those stern people may of held off, but Germany may still have had enough force left in them. I see the Western front more of as a pain in the side and distraction to German's forces while the Russians took the glory. Face it, those Russians put up with enough and even though their country was a mess, they loved their land. All hail the Russians!
samfink
Member
+31|6548
and also, remember who was the ONLY country to completely stop Germans from invading their territory? Britain ( america was never under threat of a German invasion)( not counting pilots who were shot down in the battle of Britain as once shot down they aren't a threat)
Stormscythe
Aiming for the head
+88|6542|EUtopia | Austria

{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:

I believe the US, UK, Canada and Australia deserve just as much credit as the Soviets do.  If it werent for all of us, the Soviets would have collapsed most likely (no pun intended, because they did anyway later on).

And because of this -

..teddy..jimmy wrote:

Mmm, yes Britain and thre US do deserve credit because they were also fighting a war with Germany on one of a few fronts.
The US and UK were fighting on more than just one front.  North Africa and Italy were some major points of battle as well.
IMHO, the US deserve no credit for any war they've been waging. They never had their mother land attacked by foreigners until 9/11/2001 - which in some way would justify the war on terrorism, but still not in this way. In WWII, the US sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers to die, only because they knew they could - later on - make profit from the money they had given to the denazified countries. Today, Germany would still have to pay compensational fees to the winning forces if this part of the contract hadn't been nullified.
Also, Italy doesn't deserve eny credits for they (once again) sold themselves and traited a regime with similar policies. (That doesn't mean it was wrong to fight against the 3rd Reich, neither is it hard ro understand why they didn't go with Germany, now that we know the outcome - but it's strange in comparison to what the 'politicians' in Italy did at the same time...)
The UK, however, do indeed deserve credits, for they were also attacked and more or less had to fight.

But this author may be right, I'm quite certain that WW2 was at least decided in Russia, either by Russian soldiers or by Russian land.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6398|North Carolina
Russia did sacrifice the most of any Allied Power.  They lost far more soldiers than any of the other nations involved, and Hitler's decision to initiate hostilities with Russia ultimately led to his defeat.  Had Russia not been fighting Germany at the same time as Britain was, Germany would have conquered Britain.

What America contributed to this was the acceleration of the end of the war.  If America had not gotten involved, the war would've lasted a lot longer, and while it is possible that neither Russia nor Britain would have been conquered, they would've been left in far worse states by the end of the war.  America's involvement is something that Europe should be very thankful for, but yes, Russia was a lot of the reason why Germany lost.

America was more significant in the Pacific theater.  Had it not been for America's involvement in that, Japan would control the majority of the Far East.
Mogura
Member
+17|6355|EUROPE
Well, hitlers biggest error was to attack soviet union, by doing that he had to split his forces : east front, west front, and south front (north africa).
If he didnt attacked russia, he could concentrete his forces ( a real damn big and modern army) againts allies.
I cant say if allied forces would win the war that way, but for sure it would be much harder, bloody, longer and bitter war.
herrr_smity
Member
+156|6621|space command ur anus
its interesting that the red army could win against the Germans but loose against the finnish
Mr.Casual
p-n*|3eergogglz
+136|6502|Minnesota eh

Stormscythe wrote:

IMHO, the US deserve no credit for any war they've been waging. They.....
IMHO, Your a fucking idiot.

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