NO it's too narrow an interperation - both are entwined and inexorably linked, You clearly don't have a real depth of understanding of your history man - the pallet you are painting your history from is lacking certain colours. Look they are Extremist Protestants, Anti catholic church fore most and loyal to the throne. it doesn't just boil down to Sovereignty.CameronPoe wrote:
By that rationale the Brits in teh north would be quite happy to live within the Republic if we set up a 'catholic-free' zone up there. I'm an atheist and stanuch Republican. For me religion has nothing to do with it. Maybe the Irish side are more nationalism-based whereas the Brits are more motivated along religious lines but what it boils down to in the end is the question of sovereignty.IG-Calibre wrote:
You do suppose do you? well let me tell you, first and foremost the Protestant extremists are Anti Catholic not Anti Irish, "No pope here" being their mantra, no interference from Rome in the governance of N.Ireland. "No surrender"
Edit: this is why the N.Ireland situation is so complicated. Look back at the United Irishmen some of who were Protestant, they fall into the category of those who wish to live in a Republic. Then the conflict divides along sectarian lines - Protestant against the Catholic church (national identity is not of concern only religion). If you understand this you will greatly enrich your understanding of your History Cameron..
Poll
Who has Committed the Worst Crimes in History?
| Religious People | 69% | 69% - 83 | ||||
| Agnostic/Atheist People | 9% | 9% - 11 | ||||
| Both | 21% | 21% - 26 | ||||
| Total: 120 | ||||||
No, it's not. The worst crimes in Africa were committed by white people and few black Dictators. So, your logic is wrong. If you read some history, the worst crimes, wars, genocides, were committed by religious people, and in the name of God, Allah, or Whoever you want.EVieira wrote:
Responding with sergivers logic:Vilham wrote:
White people. Through a very long strained list of actions.EVieira wrote:
Your poll then is completely useless. Religious people are the vast majority, so it is OBVIOUS most will be religious. What point are you trying to make?
Your poll is like asking: Who is responsible for most war crimes in Africa:
a) White people
b) non-white people
"The poll isn't about motivations, it's about the people involved in the crimes, wars, or whatever. The Africans countries are mostly all black, and I think there are racial motivations involved."
You could be right, but you see how the poll is totally useless to proove any point?
Yeah, I'm sure. Almost 20% being non-religous makes over 80% religious. With an overwhelming majority in numbers (that's four times the number of people), its obvious the aswer will be religoius are more involved. It means that Pol Pot, Pinochet, Hitler, etc, have and 80% chance of being religious each... And I'm only citing the more notorious ones, if you choose to cite countries it will probably more around the 100% range as most countries are religious in some way.sergeriver wrote:
Are you sure? Almost 20% of the World population is non religious people. And the number is rising. But if you consider the poll useless it's your opinion. My point with this poll is no matter what "good things" religions can teach you, the worst crimes are always committed by people of faith. Of course non religious people can commit crimes too. But I'm sure it's not a 20% of them.EVieira wrote:
Your poll then is completely useless. Religious people are the vast majority, so it is OBVIOUS most will be religious. What point are you trying to make?sergeriver wrote:
The poll isn't about motivations, it's about the people involved in the crimes, wars, or whatever. The Middle East countries are all religious, and I think there are religious motivations involved.
Your poll is like asking: Who is responsible for most war crimes in Africa:
a) White people
b) non-white people
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
hm, but isn't the point rather wether the fact that they were religious even played a role in the crimes they committed, i.e. if religion actually was the primary motivation ?
You know, even very religious people do things that have nothing to do with their faith.
I still hold that the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and such were not religiously motivated but had other agendas.
You know, even very religious people do things that have nothing to do with their faith.
I still hold that the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and such were not religiously motivated but had other agendas.
Fair enough I do understand their very real anti-catholic sentiments and I have no doubt that many Brits in the north are sectarian bigots, goodness knows that is blatantly obvious, but there are a great many non-religious unionists out there. Today's Unionism isn't the sole preserve of those that are bigotted anti-catholics, just as Republicanism isn't the sole preserve of catholics. You're right - the two issues, sovereignty and protestantism, are entwined and interlinked within the Unionist cause but we aren't trying to instal a Cardinal as viceroy of the six counties or anything.IG-Calibre wrote:
NO it's too narrow an interperation - both are entwined and inexorably linked, You clearly don't have a real depth of understanding of your history man - the pallet you are painting your history from is lacking certain colours. Look they are Extremist Protestants, Anti catholic church fore most and loyal to the throne. it doesn't just boil down to Sovereignty.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-16 06:21:39)
In fact Hitler was grown religious, but he criticized the Christianity, since Jesus was Jewish. Most members of that Nazi Movement were atheists, and what Hitler believed in that time is a matter of controversy.EVieira wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure. Almost 20% being non-religous makes over 80% religious. With an overwhelming majority in numbers (that's four times the number of people), its obvious the aswer will be religoius are more involved. It means that Pol Pot, Pinochet, Hitler, etc, have and 80% chance of being religious each... And I'm only citing the more notorious ones, if you choose to cite countries it will probably more around the 100% range as most countries are religious in some way.sergeriver wrote:
Are you sure? Almost 20% of the World population is non religious people. And the number is rising. But if you consider the poll useless it's your opinion. My point with this poll is no matter what "good things" religions can teach you, the worst crimes are always committed by people of faith. Of course non religious people can commit crimes too. But I'm sure it's not a 20% of them.EVieira wrote:
Your poll then is completely useless. Religious people are the vast majority, so it is OBVIOUS most will be religious. What point are you trying to make?
Your poll is like asking: Who is responsible for most war crimes in Africa:
a) White people
b) non-white people
'The troubles' and the original fight for independence are poles apart. It started off as question of sovereignty and I believe the IRA were fighting for sovereignty. It turned from being about sovereignty to religious hate murdering because as the IRA killed solders, police men and loyalist paramilitaries they also killed civilians, to coin a Fraze,causing Collateral Damage. Whether or not the people the IRA killed were Innocent civilians or involved in the occupation, allot of family members and members of the protestant community seeked revenge, by killing Innocent catholics. So if an RUC man was shot, a catholic civilian was shot. Then the hard line Republican Movement like the INLA and Real IRA started to randomly kill Innocent protestants. And it is/was about religion IMHO with regards the UVF, UFF, UDA, INLA, RIRA with the IRA being the only prescribed organization who was killing for the cause, for Independence and an end for occupation. The IRA's actions gave the other terrorist groups on both sides credence to kill purely on religious grounds as an act of revenge.
So I agree with Poe and Calibre to some degree. (although you dont agree with eachother) It started over sovereignty, but quickly escalated into religious tit for tat killing.
As the loyalist paramilitaries killed more that the Republican paramilitaries over the 25 years or so of the troubles add that to the amount of protestants killed by the hardline republican movement and I'm sure that way more than half the deaths in N.I were because of Religious hate, not an issue of sovereignty.
So I agree with Poe and Calibre to some degree. (although you dont agree with eachother) It started over sovereignty, but quickly escalated into religious tit for tat killing.
As the loyalist paramilitaries killed more that the Republican paramilitaries over the 25 years or so of the troubles add that to the amount of protestants killed by the hardline republican movement and I'm sure that way more than half the deaths in N.I were because of Religious hate, not an issue of sovereignty.
Last edited by JahManRed (2006-11-16 06:31:18)
I was answering with your logic, I copied and pasted your quote. Of course the logic is flawed.sergeriver wrote:
No, it's not. The worst crimes in Africa were committed by white people and few black Dictators. So, your logic is wrong. If you read some history, the worst crimes, wars, genocides, were committed by religious people, and in the name of God, Allah, or Whoever you want.EVieira wrote:
Responding with sergivers logic:Vilham wrote:
White people. Through a very long strained list of actions.
"The poll isn't about motivations, it's about the people involved in the crimes, wars, or whatever. The Africans countries are mostly all black, and I think there are racial motivations involved."
You could be right, but you see how the poll is totally useless to proove any point?
Who are these white people you are talking about, comitting such crimes in Africa? And what did they do? If you are talking about slavery, not only that has been dealt with but also it was not limited to white.
And you should read a little African history yourself, I recomend research Tutsi, Hutus, the Rwandan Massacre and the Congo Massacre.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Why did I put The Troubles in the list? Now I started another Irish war.
Thanks for the recommendation.EVieira wrote:
I was answering with your logic, I copied and pasted your quote. Of course the logic is flawed.sergeriver wrote:
No, it's not. The worst crimes in Africa were committed by white people and few black Dictators. So, your logic is wrong. If you read some history, the worst crimes, wars, genocides, were committed by religious people, and in the name of God, Allah, or Whoever you want.EVieira wrote:
Responding with sergivers logic:
"The poll isn't about motivations, it's about the people involved in the crimes, wars, or whatever. The Africans countries are mostly all black, and I think there are racial motivations involved."
You could be right, but you see how the poll is totally useless to proove any point?
Who are these white people you are talking about, comitting such crimes in Africa? And what did they do? If you are talking about slavery, not only that has been dealt with but also it was not limited to white.
And you should read a little African history yourself, I recomend research Tutsi, Hutus, the Rwandan Massacre and the Congo Massacre.
Within the space of four hundred years millions of people were forcibly taken from Africa as slaves.
Last edited by sergeriver (2006-11-16 06:38:16)
Warring with ourselves is what we do best!sergeriver wrote:
Why did I put The Troubles in the list? Now I started another Irish war.
You're right. Religion was not the motivation of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc etc. All those comprise the worst.B.Schuss wrote:
hm, but isn't the point rather wether the fact that they were religious even played a role in the crimes they committed, i.e. if religion actually was the primary motivation ?
You know, even very religious people do things that have nothing to do with their faith.
I still hold that the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and such were not religiously motivated but had other agendas.
Wrong. As listed above, the worse crimes were committed by people who were decidedly not religious. If you have a chip on your shoulder against religion in general, fine. But don't try to spin history and tell me the four listed above were people of any faith. Let's say they were religious for the sake of argument, even that would not mean religion was their primary motivation or that they were correctly following the teachings of their faith by committing atrocities.sergeriver wrote:
. . . My point with this poll is no matter what "good things" religions can teach you, the worst crimes are always committed by people of faith. Of course non religious people can commit crimes too. But I'm sure it's not a 20% of them.
**Sigh** - i'm talking about the situation up until the Good Friday Agreement, i'm looking at it from a classical perspective, it's not that I disagree with CameronPoe, i feel he is failing to unearth the true meaning of the conflict in N.Ireland, and to a certain extent you're right as well Jahman.. However the Loyalist mantra was "any Catholic will do" Yes it may have been in response to atrocities carried out by the IRA, but it didn't matter who died. Not only is it about sovereignty it was first and foremost about Religion to the Protestant extremists, I don't see why that's so difficult to grasp, it was very much about sectarian conflict in the last 25 years, and the continuing intransigence from the loyalist's to share power with Catholics, if you don't understand this, I dunno lads..
In about 100 days, over 800,000 people were butchered in Rwanda.. Thats probably over 10 tons of human flesh and bones rotting in mass graves after a little over 3 months. And butchered is a very adequate verb here, because the weapons used were usualy machetes and large knives.
When did that happen? 1994. A little over a decade ago.
Your welcome, for the research tips.
Last edited by EVieira (2006-11-16 07:20:16)
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Me thinks we have 2 threads in one here.
wow sergeriver, if i saw u in RL i'd have to hit u.
just because of the sheet stupidity of this thread.
how about this one:
Who has commited the most crimes?
Liberals or Democrats?
Not fair is it?
Neither is this thread.
categorically, it might be fair, but in perspective, its not.
Religious people might have committed to most crimes. but lets go into more details.
Violent religions
Peaceful regligions
violent athiests
non-violent athiests.
Also, Hitler cannot/should be considered a Christian. No way, because obviously he didnt follow the rules and guidelines. FFS he killed Jews and everybody. So, you can rule out his religion. Maybe cult.........
just because of the sheet stupidity of this thread.
how about this one:
Who has commited the most crimes?
Liberals or Democrats?
Not fair is it?
Neither is this thread.
categorically, it might be fair, but in perspective, its not.
Religious people might have committed to most crimes. but lets go into more details.
Violent religions
Peaceful regligions
violent athiests
non-violent athiests.
Also, Hitler cannot/should be considered a Christian. No way, because obviously he didnt follow the rules and guidelines. FFS he killed Jews and everybody. So, you can rule out his religion. Maybe cult.........
Last edited by Des.Kmal (2006-11-16 07:25:07)
Add me on Origin for Battlefield 4 fun: DesKmal
Not really, someone from Argentina asked a question about Ireland pertaining to the topic, and i'm just explaining why the response he was given was incorrect. After all it is D&STStingray24 wrote:
Me thinks we have 2 threads in one here.
Theres a joke there but I wouldn't do it to sergeriver .sergeriver wrote:
Ask my wife.twiistaaa wrote:
2-1 this guy is 16 or under. taking all bets.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
No complaint from me. Just an observation.IG-Calibre wrote:
Not really, someone from Argentina asked a question about Ireland pertaining to the topic, and i'm just explaining why the response he was given was incorrect. After all it is D&STStingray24 wrote:
Me thinks we have 2 threads in one here.
Well do us a favour and next time do it properly.CameronPoe wrote:
Warring with ourselves is what we do best!sergeriver wrote:
Why did I put The Troubles in the list? Now I started another Irish war.
Wars can also be religiously motivated, like killing the Jews, the only reason they were killed is because they were a soft target, if there wasnt a Jewish religion he could have hardly said kill all bankers, or kill all the rich people.Des.Kmal wrote:
wow sergeriver, if i saw u in RL i'd have to hit u.
just because of the sheet stupidity of this thread.
how about this one:
Who has commited the most crimes?
Liberals or Democrats?
Not fair is it?
Neither is this thread.
categorically, it might be fair, but in perspective, its not.
Religious people might have committed to most crimes. but lets go into more details.
Violent religions
Peaceful regligions
violent athiests
non-violent athiests.
Also, Hitler cannot/should be considered a Christian. No way, because obviously he didnt follow the rules and guidelines. FFS he killed Jews and everybody. So, you can rule out his religion. Maybe cult.........
the religion is just a recruting tool. the motives are not religious, they just don't want the Israelis there because they feel they just jumped straight in and made a country.sergeriver wrote:
The poll isn't about motivations, it's about the people involved in the crimes, wars, or whatever. The Middle East countries are all religious, and I think there are religious motivations involved.doctastrangelove1964 wrote:
Mid east conflict is more political and economic than religous. The Muslims where getting along fine with the Jews living in Palistine pre-israel but when Israel came in they got pissed off as they took their land and now continue to do so despite treaties and stuff.sergeriver wrote:
Here there are some fine examples of Religion & Love:
The Crusades
The Inquisition
Armenian Genocide
Middle East Conflict
The Troubles
I won't include the Holocaust to be fair because many Nazis were atheists.
I noticed after writing it.Kmarion wrote:
Theres a joke there but I wouldn't do it to sergeriver .sergeriver wrote:
Ask my wife.twiistaaa wrote:
2-1 this guy is 16 or under. taking all bets.
In fact, I didn't ask a question, I just listed the Troubles among some religious conflicts and wars, and I was told that the Troubles wasn't about religion, although I believe it was.IG-Calibre wrote:
Not really, someone from Argentina asked a question about Ireland pertaining to the topic, and i'm just explaining why the response he was given was incorrect. After all it is D&STStingray24 wrote:
Me thinks we have 2 threads in one here.
You would hit me because I'm not religious, again religion is worse. j/kDes.Kmal wrote:
wow sergeriver, if i saw u in RL i'd have to hit u.
just because of the sheet stupidity of this thread.
how about this one:
Who has commited the most crimes?
Liberals or Democrats?
Not fair is it?
Neither is this thread.
categorically, it might be fair, but in perspective, its not.
Religious people might have committed to most crimes. but lets go into more details.
Violent religions
Peaceful regligions
violent athiests
non-violent athiests.
Also, Hitler cannot/should be considered a Christian. No way, because obviously he didnt follow the rules and guidelines. FFS he killed Jews and everybody. So, you can rule out his religion. Maybe cult.........
If you read the poll and the first post I never gave my opinion about this, and the 3 options are:
Religious People, Agnostic/Atheist People, Both, very fair to me. I didn't point a gun to people to vote for religious dudes.