lowing
Banned
+1,662|6879|USA

oug wrote:

lowing wrote:

Well, I really don't know what to say........cept maybe...............thanks for proving my point by agreeing wit heverything I accuse you liberals of doing??
don't know whether I should laugh or cry... 10 minutes wasted...
kinda felt the same way after reading it.

LOL, what is your point, you re-enforce what I accuse liberals of doing, then offer up lame excuses why you do it?  I have already heard all the lame exuses, and I still think your posts on the those issues is STILL over the line. By the way, we never landed on the moon, and ghosts rerally exists, if you want I can post links that prove it.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6783

lowing wrote:

fair enough Cam, nothing I can/will dispute there. except I still think the Jews have every right to exist in the ME as much as anyone else native to the region. and I am willing to agree to disagree on that one.

Only thing that is left to discuss is what to do with the EXISTING terrorists. You seem to favor amnesty for them in the name of peace ( bury the hatchet so to speak) and I say they must be punished.
I don't favour amnesty for those who follow a purely evil cause, e.g. members of Al Qaeda. They should be contained and fought through asset-freezing, counter-intelligence, infiltration and specific targetted attacks as I mentioned earlier. Watertight homeland security must go hand in hand with this. Those apprehended must be punished.

Those that follow a just cause but who try to achieve justice through injustice must be dealt with on a case by case basis. During periods of conflict (i.e., no ceasefire enforced) they should be dealt with as descibed above in a carefully measured fashion. As in the case of Israel, the moment you overstep the mark you cede the moral high ground (if indeed Israel can ever have been said to occupy said ground), hence my emphatic statement that retaliation must be measured and must also be effective. To achieve peace, where livid people on both sides of a divide perpetuate a tit-for-tat cycle of violence and death, sometimes difficult choices have to be made. I could quite easily ask how ordinary decent Palestinians could endorse engaging Israel in peace-talks given the crimes committed by the Israelis against them. The converse is true for Israelis. The one thing about such an attitude is that not engaging each other automatically means perpetual violence, a path I would prefer not to see being followed. Hard choices have to be made and people need to let go of their hatred to give peace any sort of a chance. To remain intransigent is to condemn them all to misery for the rest of eternity. Peace between ideological opposites must be based on compromise, concessions, finding small patches of common ground and working together towards a goal of peace. If either party in a conflict that will go on forever shows desires to meaningfully engage their enemy in the name of peace then that opportunity to be seized with both hands. We owe it to future generations so that they might not suffer the misery their fathers and forefathers had to.

PS I suggest doing some research/googling on the Oslo Accords, Camp David Peace Talks, Northern Ireland Peace Process and The Good Friday Agreement.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-15 06:15:04)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6879|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

fair enough Cam, nothing I can/will dispute there. except I still think the Jews have every right to exist in the ME as much as anyone else native to the region. and I am willing to agree to disagree on that one.

Only thing that is left to discuss is what to do with the EXISTING terrorists. You seem to favor amnesty for them in the name of peace ( bury the hatchet so to speak) and I say they must be punished.
I don't favour amnesty for those who follow a purely evil cause, e.g. members of Al Qaeda. They should be contained and fought through asset-freezing, counter-intelligence, infiltration and specific targetted attacks as I mentioned earlier. Watertight homeland security must go hand in hand with this. Those apprehended must be punished.

Those that follow a just cause but who try to achieve justice through injustice must be dealt with on a case by case basis. During periods of conflict they should be dealt with as descibed above in a carefully measured fashion. As in the case of Israel, the moment you overstep the mark you cede the moral high ground (if indeed Israel can ever have been said to occupy said ground), hence my emphatic statement that retaliation must be measured and must also be effective. To achieve peace, where livid people on both sides of a divide perpetuate a tit-for-tat cycle of violence and death, sometimes difficult choices have to be made. I could quite easily ask how ordinary decent Palestinians could endorse engaging Israel in peace-talks given the crimes committed by the Israelis against them. The converse is true for Israelis. The one thing about such an attitude is that not engaging each other automatically means perpetual violence, a path I would prefer not to see being followed. Hard choices have to be made and people need to let go of their hatred to give peace any sort of a chance. To remain intransigent is to condemn them all to misery for the rest of eternity. Peace between ideological opposites must be based on compromise, concessions, finding small patches of common ground and working together towards a goal of peace. If either party in a conflict that will go on forever shows desires to meaningfully engage their enemy in the name of peace then that opportunity to be seized with both hands. We owe it to future generations so that they might not suffer the misery their fathers and forefathers had to.

PS I suggest doing some research/googling on the Oslo Accords, Camp David Peace Talks, Northern Ireland
Peace Process and The Good Friday Agreement.
See, now we can agree, you have stepped away from blaming Israel for everything and moved more toward a mutually destructive mentality from both sides. Which is all I ask.

  I can not side with anyone who automatically blames Israel and the US for  the worlds problems.  and I am the one who is accused of being black and white.

also like we both already agreed on. With Israel out of the picture, there will still not be peace in the ME. SO how can anyone blame Israel for it now. They all hate each other. The only thing they have in common is, they all also hate Israel. Pretty god damned rediculous. and tiresome.

Common sense tells me, if you want to blame Israel for the problems, and then you remove Israel, and you still have the problems, then Israel was never the problem in the first place. You could call it troubleshooting.

Last edited by lowing (2006-11-15 06:15:14)

IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6970|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

JahManRed wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Surely the onus is on the DUP to deliver at this stage? I reckon Gerry will push through support for the policing having come so far.
As IG-Calibre says. A lot of republicans have such a ingrained distrust for the police RUC or PSNI that they see signing up to policing as one concession too far. I know some people with these views and they are all people who's family have been targeted by special branch over the years through generations for no reason. Gerry's problem is that if he signs up to policing the hardcore republicans may run to the dissident paramilitary groups like The Real IRA.

lol, totally off topic I know, and usually I would refrain, but seriously this topic needs to be killed off somehow.

Did anyone see strictly come dancing the other night?
Well the RUC may have been re-branded the PSNI but many Senior RUC special branch officers are still in office, does that really constitute a fresh start for policing?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6783

lowing wrote:

See, now we can agree, you have stepped away from blaming Israel for everything and moved more toward a mutually destructive mentality from both sides. Which is all I ask.

  I can not side with anyone who automatically blames Israel and the US for  the worlds problems.  and I am the one who is accused of being black and white.

also like we both already agreed on. With Israel out of the picture, there will still not be peace in the ME. SO how can anyone blame Israel for it now. They all hate each other. The only thing they have in common is, they all also hate Israel. Pretty god damned rediculous. and tiresome.

Common sense tells me, if you want to blame Israel for the problems, and then you remove Israel, and you still have the problems, then Israel was never the problem in the first place. You could call it troubleshooting.
Well you see the fact is that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalam, the Golan Heights and Shebaa Farms is a problem, but it's not the only problem. All I blame Israel for is for the injustices they have committed from the 1940s to the present day (an opinion-based 'blamage' which we have discussed at length, the fundamental blame IMO going to the zionists and certain members of the international community). What others blame Israel for has nothing to do with me and neither has the declaration of some that the state of Israel should be annihilated. With Israel gone the radical islamists from Morocco to Pakistan, who care little for Palestine anyway in my opinion, would move on to toppling the odious cruel and dictatorial House of Saud, not to say that they themselves are not equally odious. So you're right the middle east would not be at peace but one less reason for violence would exist (I'm not condoning that). Your analogy of 'troubeshooting' is apt.

Most arabs hate Israel because of their treatment of their arab brothers in Palestine for reasons along the lines of why I personally believe Israel to be fundamentally at fault and, especially in the case of Iran, the fact that the Haram Al-Sharif is under Israeli government control. Iran also seeks to win over the masses of the middle east by being the most anti-Israel, akin to some kind of childish popularity competition among muslim nations, the main competitors being Iran and Saudi Arabia. So there are compassion/justice based reasons, religious based reason, and regional power play politics type reasons why Israel is singled out and hated. That is what binds the arabs/persians together. Some of the reasons are ridiculous, some aren't.

PS Lowing: I don't think I EVER blamed Israel for all the problems in the world, let alon all the problems in the middle east. As such, I'm stepping away from nothing. Read what I write and try not to infer anything that will later be pointed out as a misconception.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-15 06:37:11)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6879|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

See, now we can agree, you have stepped away from blaming Israel for everything and moved more toward a mutually destructive mentality from both sides. Which is all I ask.

  I can not side with anyone who automatically blames Israel and the US for  the worlds problems.  and I am the one who is accused of being black and white.

also like we both already agreed on. With Israel out of the picture, there will still not be peace in the ME. SO how can anyone blame Israel for it now. They all hate each other. The only thing they have in common is, they all also hate Israel. Pretty god damned rediculous. and tiresome.

Common sense tells me, if you want to blame Israel for the problems, and then you remove Israel, and you still have the problems, then Israel was never the problem in the first place. You could call it troubleshooting.
Well you see the fact is that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalam, the Golan Heights and Shebaa Farms is a problem, but it's not the only problem. All I blame Israel for is for the injustices they have committed from the 1940s to the present day (an opinion-based 'blamage' which we have discussed at length, the fundamental blame IMO going to the zionists and certain members of the international community). What others blame Israel for has nothing to do with me and neither has the declaration of some that the state of Israel should be annihilated. With Israel gone the radical islamists from Morocco to Pakistan, who care little for Palestine anyway in my opinion, would move on to toppling the odious cruel and dictatorial House of Saud, not to say that they themselves are not equally odious. So you're right the middle east would not be at peace but one less reason for violence would exist (I'm not condoning that). Your analogy of 'troubeshooting' is apt.

Most arabs hate Israel because of their treatment of their arab brothers in Palestine for reasons along the lines of why I personally believe Israel to be fundamentally at fault and, especially in the case of Iran, the fact that the Haram Al-Sharif is under Israeli government control. Iran also seeks to win over the masses of the middle east by being the most anti-Israel, akin to some kind of childish popularity competition among muslim nations, the main competitors being Iran and Saudi Arabia. So there are compassion/justice based reasons, religious based reason, and regional power play politics type reasons why Israel is singled out and hated. That is what binds the arabs/persians together. Some of the reasons are ridiculous, some aren't.

PS Lowing: I don't think I EVER blamed Israel for all the problems in the world, let alon all the problems in the middle east. As such, I'm stepping away from nothing. Read what I write and try not to infer anything that will later be pointed out as a misconception.
I buy all of this, but the bottom line is, the ME will still be a pain in the ass to the world, especially the march toward radical islamic takeover or the attempt I should say. What Islamic nation would dare pick up arms AGAINST a Jihad and risk being turned against by their neighbors, in effect becoming the next Israel.

a hypothetical here:

I believe if it were the Islamic nations that "disappeared" from the ME instead of Israel, there would be peace in that region. and again, we agree that if Israel "disappeared" violence and chaos would still reign in that region. Which, comes full circle to my point all along. The problem isn't Israel, it is the Islamic nations that surround it. Simplistic I know, but I hope you get my point.

No Cam, what you do is, thump Israel woefully more than any other, on the topic, when clearly it is a two way street. and terrorism toward innocent people is by far a greater crime commited by Muslims.

Last edited by lowing (2006-11-15 06:49:09)

SpaceApollyon
Scratch where it itches
+41|6748|Finland

lowing wrote:

No Cam, what you do is, thump Israel woefully more than any other, on the topic, when clearly it is a two way street. and terrorism toward innocent people is by far a greater crime commited by Muslims.
So, would you agree that some of Israel's attacks are in fact terrorism?

Last edited by SpaceApollyon (2006-11-15 06:53:31)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6783

lowing wrote:

a hypothetical here:

I believe if it were the Islamic nations that "disappeared" from the ME instead of Israel, there would be peace in that region. and again, we agree that if Israel "disappeared" violence and chaos would still reign in that region. Which, comes full circle to my point all along. The problem isn't Israel, it is the Islamic nations that surround it. Simplistic I know, but I hope you get my point.

No Cam, what you do is, thump Israel woefully more than any other, on the topic, when clearly it is a two way street.
Point One: That is a crazy hypothetical as equally odious as the 'annihilate Israel' idea. What about all of the millions of decent arabs and persians, who care little or nothing for politics because they have their own problems to deal with, that would be swept away in this armageddon of which you speak? It's genocide. Some governments of predominantly islamic nations may be a problem but all too often governments do not equal the populace (especially in a region rife with dictatorships). To wipe everything else but Israel out is to hand victory to, what I personally would describe as, a terrorist state (as would others). You would be replacing bad with bad - it's all bad. Israel was created with the help of the Haganah, Irgun and Lehi - terrorist organisations responsible for massacres of civilians every bit as bad as those perpetrated by Hamas or Hezbollah. I would find it difficult to choose between two sets of terrorists.

Point Two: Lowing, you thump arabs and muslims mercilessly more than any other, on the topic, when clearly it is a two way street. I don't think there's anyone on this forum that posts counter arguments within their own arguments, least of all you or me. When someone questions me on my more detailed opinions I duly oblige.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-15 06:58:17)

hilltop2bit
Member
+9|6804|Doctor Evils Lair, Near You!

JahManRed wrote:

You really are a close minded generalizing little person.  Not everyone is split between two camps you know.
There are also alot of people just trying to live there lives around all this bullsht going on in this country.
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6994|UK

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

a hypothetical here:

I believe if it were the Islamic nations that "disappeared" from the ME instead of Israel, there would be peace in that region. and again, we agree that if Israel "disappeared" violence and chaos would still reign in that region. Which, comes full circle to my point all along. The problem isn't Israel, it is the Islamic nations that surround it. Simplistic I know, but I hope you get my point.

No Cam, what you do is, thump Israel woefully more than any other, on the topic, when clearly it is a two way street.
Point One: That is a crazy hypothetical as equally odious as the 'annihilate Israel' idea. What about all of the millions of decent arabs and persians, who care little or nothing for politics because they have their own problems to deal with, that would be swept away in this armageddon of which you speak? It's genocide. Some governments of predominantly islamic nations may be a problem but all too often governments do not equal the populace (especially in a region rife with dictatorships). To wipe everything else but Israel out is to hand victory to, what I personally would describe as, a terrorist state (as would others). You would be replacing bad with bad - it's all bad. Israel was created with the help of the Haganah, Irgun and Lehi - terrorist organisations responsible for massacres of civilians every bit as bad as those perpetrated by Hamas or Hezbollah. I would find it difficult to choose between two sets of terrorists.

Point Two: Lowing, you thump arabs and muslims mercilessly more than any other, on the topic, when clearly it is a two way street. I don't think there's anyone on this forum that posts counter arguments within their own arguments, least of all you or me. When someone questions me on my more detailed opinions I duly oblige.
Isnt it obvious? We exterminate them... who cares if they are innocent! DURRRRR.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6994|Cambridge (UK)

IG-Calibre wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

lowing wrote:

fair enough Cam, nothing I can/will dispute there. except I still think the Jews have every right to exist in the ME as much as anyone else native to the region. and I am willing to agree to disagree on that one.

Only thing that is left to discuss is what to do with the EXISTING terrorists. You seem to favor amnesty for them in the name of peace ( bury the hatchet so to speak) and I say they must be punished.
Both CP and I have both pointed that Northern Ireland clearly demostrates that punishment doesn't work. Burying the hatchet does.
Let me tell you something, with death threats being leveled against the Sinn Fein leadership if they sign up for policing, along with accusations of them being traitors being bandied about, don't kid yourself that everything is hunky dory here in N.Ireland.  The continued intransigence of the Ulster-Israels to not share power with Catholics is in serious danger of shattering the republican family. About 25 million pounds worth of damage has been done to British business around the border area this year alone, by militant factions, who will probably attract more disenfranchised republicans who viewed the decommissioning of the IRA's weapon arsenal as surrender. Also not one Loyalist gun has ever been decommissioned   The question is can Gerry Adams really deliver? or will he be viewed as a Micheal Collins for the 21 century & suffer the same fate.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm well aware it's not perfect peace. Maybe I should have said something like "relative peace in northern ireland" some posts ago. But, surely you have to admit, the process that led to the current ceasefire has worked.

Oh, and can somebody remind me, who were the main architects of that process?

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2006-11-15 07:37:57)

Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6994|Cambridge (UK)

lowing wrote:

once we figured out why Timothy Mcviegh carried out his attack, should we have forgiven him and let him go?
He certainly shouldn't have been executed. But Timothy McViegh is a whole different and much darker matter and is only connected to the current discussion in that he was a terrorist, from what I understand of the man, his actions and motives.

I would link to a wikipedia page, but lets stick to the general topic of middle east terrorists shall we.

You really don't want to go there.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2006-11-15 07:48:41)

rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6788
I think the original point of the thread was to illustrate how we are trying to rebuild Iraq so it could be better than before( a slow process indeed) while the insurgents are content to keep knocking any progress down. Therefore, who is good and who is bad? Lowing, added a comment to his OP that irked the libs but it was true because ten pages later most libs continue to blame the US for all the Iraqi whoes. So in all your anti-lowing retoric you proved his point.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6994|Cambridge (UK)

rawls2 wrote:

I think the original point of the thread was to illustrate how we are trying to rebuild Iraq so it could be better than before( a slow process indeed) while the insurgents are content to keep knocking any progress down. Therefore, who is good and who is bad? Lowing, added a comment to his OP that irked the libs but it was true because ten pages later most libs continue to blame the US for all the Iraqi whoes. So in all your anti-lowing retoric you proved his point.
I don't just blame Bush, I blame Blair too.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10980
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0629-10.htm
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

There's three links all saying the same thing - Iraq is worse off than it was before the occupation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/world … mp;emc=rss

And there's one saying that the Terrorism Threat is worse than before the occupation.

The UK and the US are the two main coalition countries. Bush and Blair were the two key architects of the occupation. The state of Iraq and the Terrorism Threat is Bush and Blairs fault.

This is simple logic.

Bush has even admitted that the occupation has made the terrorist threat worse. He has admitted his guilt.
JoeMama
Member
+2|6601|Wyoming
One of the main problems in that part of the ME is syria, and iran sticking their necks into things, they are worried about their own populations wanting reforms.

Some of you people make me laugh, anyone can find a link to what establishes their point, AL-Jazerra, NY Times come on seriously.

Last edited by JoeMama (2006-11-15 16:57:03)

wah1188
You orrible caaaaaaan't
+321|6688|UK
It truly is a shame that some people are preventing Iraq from rebuilding itself by infiltrating the police forces and iraqi army. I really would like to know why the fuck they do it.
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6747|Πάϊ

JoeMama wrote:

One of the main problems in that part of the ME is syria, and iran sticking their necks into things, they are worried about their own populations wanting reforms.

Some of you people make me laugh, anyone can find a link to what establishes their point, AL-Jazerra, NY Times come on seriously.
Ok O wise noobie, you tell us the truth then.
ƒ³
JoeMama
Member
+2|6601|Wyoming

oug wrote:

JoeMama wrote:

One of the main problems in that part of the ME is syria, and iran sticking their necks into things, they are worried about their own populations wanting reforms.

Some of you people make me laugh, anyone can find a link to what establishes their point, AL-Jazerra, NY Times come on seriously.
Ok O wise noobie, you tell us the truth then.
The truth is that i care about greece about as much as you care about the usa.

The truth is that i care more about our(US) troops more than the ragheads.

If any of you have a problem with that you can Kiss my A$$
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6887|BC, Canada

JoeMama wrote:

oug wrote:

JoeMama wrote:

One of the main problems in that part of the ME is syria, and iran sticking their necks into things, they are worried about their own populations wanting reforms.

Some of you people make me laugh, anyone can find a link to what establishes their point, AL-Jazerra, NY Times come on seriously.
Ok O wise noobie, you tell us the truth then.
The truth is that i care about greece about as much as you care about the usa.

The truth is that i care more about our(US) troops more than the ragheads.

If any of you have a problem with that you can Kiss my A$$
thats the best post i have ever seen on these forums, nationality bashing, genralizing racial statements, and finished up with a insult directed outward at everyone.
great job, I think your skills in debate are far to superior to anyone in these forums, maybe you should try some higher end ones, mabye with some folk from mensa.
JoeMama
Member
+2|6601|Wyoming

Nicholas Langdon wrote:

JoeMama wrote:

oug wrote:

Ok O wise noobie, you tell us the truth then.
The truth is that i care about greece about as much as you care about the usa.

The truth is that i care more about our(US) troops more than the ragheads.

If any of you have a problem with that you can Kiss my A$$
thats the best post i have ever seen on these forums, nationality bashing, genralizing racial statements, and finished up with a insult directed outward at everyone.
great job, I think your skills in debate are far to superior to anyone in these forums, maybe you should try some higher end ones, mabye with some folk from mensa.
How do you know how OUG feels about the us? so it may or may not be nationality bashing(it probably is though)

Not every one will take that as an insult, only the ones with a problem with it.

I never said anything about being  good at debate.

I don't see your name affialiated with mensa.

Oh i'm soooooooo sorry that i hurt your sensitive feelings. I know how sensitive some of the people are on here, you must be one of them.

Last edited by JoeMama (2006-11-15 18:10:44)

jonsimon
Member
+224|6723

JoeMama wrote:

Nicholas Langdon wrote:

JoeMama wrote:


The truth is that i care about greece about as much as you care about the usa.

The truth is that i care more about our(US) troops more than the ragheads.

If any of you have a problem with that you can Kiss my A$$
thats the best post i have ever seen on these forums, nationality bashing, genralizing racial statements, and finished up with a insult directed outward at everyone.
great job, I think your skills in debate are far to superior to anyone in these forums, maybe you should try some higher end ones, mabye with some folk from mensa.
How do you know how OUG feels about the us? so it may or may not be nationality bashing(it probably is though)

Not every one will take that as an insult, only the ones with a problem with it.

I never said anything about being  good at debate.

I don't see your name affialiated with mensa.

Oh i'm soooooooo sorry that i hurt your sensitive feelings. I know how sensitive some of the people are on here, you must be one of them.
You hurt nothing except your own public image. You won't get any R-E-S-P-E-C-T acting like that.
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6887|BC, Canada
lol, anyway...
back on topic, it was looking like cam and lowing seemed to be making in some headway there.
Fen321
Member
+54|6726|Singularity
Iraq topic again huh, i love these

Lets start by stating a few misconceptions:

1. Iraqi people want us there protecting them

False: People would rather subjugate themselves to a totalitarian ruler of their own making then have an occupying force doing the ruling.

Examples of this concept can be found in some of the responses of Iraqi's towards the death sentence of Saddam, were you have people stating they would rather live under his rule than the current one.

2. Terrorist are attacking the US because they hate our freedoms.

False: This one is extremely misleading. If one were to take the time and do some research one would find that the majority of the grievances in this region arise out of hatred towards policy. In fact the concept of jihad which I'm sure you have heard of undoubtedly a million times on the news or on this forum is being used here to justify their actions in order to drive out an invading force.

Like i stated before they want to remove the "infidel," in this case the invading coalition forces, IE US, from Iraq.

Well back to Iraq

The majority of the arguments which we are having here can be made mute of people begin to look at some basic facts.

1. Al-queda had no connections with Saddam Hussein

Reasoning-- If you take a course on the Middle East you will quickly be introduced to a concept called personal ism. The style of rule through out the majority of this region falls under a style called patrimonial rule, meaning the leader emanates his rule down to those bellow him. Tools at his disposal, for example, conflict. The leader creates conflict within his own government in order to avoid concentrating power within any given area, so for one to assume that Saddam would benefit with having Al-queda run around Iraq they are simply wrong and don't know squat about how people in that region function, governmentally. Since essentially Al-queda would be a source of power thus diminishing his own...not going to happen.

2. WMD there so we should attack.

This was clearly not the case based on the lack of any sort of evidence to there having been WMDs. While some attribute the violation of the UN resolutions as reason enough to invade Iraq one must ignore the fact that other countries through out the world ignore such resolutions. But how do they get away with it?

This area falls into the real of International law and its application to the situation. So to help you out a bit understand this I'm going to quote a lovely piece of work done back in 1960 in the American Journal of International Law, vol 54, No. 2.

"Sanctions of the UN are, as far as their structure is concerned, old-fashioned, just as under General International Law; they are directed against states, are based on collective responsibility, and do not distinguish between criminal and civil sanctions. But whereas General International Law knowns only individuals, and not collective, sanctions, the Charter [United Nations Charter] knows only collective, and not individual, sanctions."

So with that said i was aiming that at the sanctions placed on the people of Iraq during that 10 year period of time. There is extensive debate on whether it was justifiable use of sanctions, since those that suffered the most were the people themselves and not the ruler. While you may ask what's the point of well...pointing this out i once again go back to IL and rights inherent to being a state. Those of which fall under self-determination. Now violating the resolution does not give immediate room for a justified invasion, for one must, under the Charter,  proceed with other peaceful measures before contemplating use of force. If that is the case, one most note of the Downing Street memo and the time of its being written, IE prior to invasion, so if all other measures are to be exhausted before invasion why then already begin to state that you plan to invade as if the talks were not going to provide remedy to the problem?


The reason one must address this issue before attacking any other issue is mainly to do with the justification o f the US being there, if it is not present then how can one argue for it?


Now for the current situation....without a doubt the country is in a state of Civil War, thus one has to conclude that the Vietnam paradigm is going to surface and one day we may have an Iraq paradigm. And by Vietnam paradigm i mean that after Vietnam we basically learned not to mess in other people's civil wars and then because of it stayed out of armed conflicts for some time.

Also, another thing to note is that the UN charter also states that there should be no military intervention in them since essentially they are state matters those of which foreign states should not meddle with. I could be wrong, since I've been reading too many articles/papers lately, but i'm almost 100% sure its in there.

Last edited by Fen321 (2006-11-15 20:14:03)

-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6887|BC, Canada
well put togeather post fen +1 just because they are a rare find.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6789
If Israel dissapeared, there would be many nations to fight.  If the others dissappeared, there would be only one nation.  Who could they fight?  Besides which, whether they would fight anyway is irrelevent to whether Israel is blameless.

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