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2006-11-13 04:27:38
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6749|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
So I was listening to this documentary on the radio last night.  It's about 4 men who are already nearly 10 years into life sentences because they were tried as adults even though they were children at the time.  For charges like "Felonious Murder" - this is a charge where you are as culpable for a crime committed by another simple because you were there when the crime was committed.

In the US, notions of the 'super-predator' and 'teenage time-bomb' have persuaded 40 states to adopt legislation which moves more children into the adult criminal system.

This new legislation encourages ever harsher punishment regimes.

Punishment, rather than rehabilitation is becoming the norm, and increasingly, juveniles are being sentenced to life without parole.
So the question is should a child really be sentenced to spend their entire life in a prison cell? you can hear the documentary here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/d … 120378.stm
2006-11-13 05:05:44
JahManRed
wank
+646|6635|IRELAND

Im at work and don't have time to listen to it, ill listen when I get home................
2006-11-13 05:07:44
Naughty_Om
Im Ron Burgundy?
+355|6640|USA
Hell yes. The brain has the ability to function as an adult in the years from 12 up. I beleive that a person has the mental capacity to understand right from wrong, EVER at a small age. So fuck the system.
2006-11-13 05:17:54
<[onex]>Headstone
Member
+102|6709|New York
Yes they should be tried as adults. What usually results when they are given a slap on the wrist and let go? They later on commit Bigger and better crimes because they were tried as youthful offenders(in a murder case) and they Kill again and the SEALED records or past crime can not be used against them? Thus allowing them to possibly slip out of another conviction? What kind of message is this sending?

Ive seen to many times where Kids willingly drive drunk, kill 3 friends and get a lousey 6 months in jail because they were tried as Youthful offenders? Too many times if seen it. Then a couple years later That same KID turns around and does it again and there prior sealed records cant be used against them. Thats Bullshit.

They Know right from wrong, and especially if the crime they commit is premeditated(or they Know someone is going to do it and dont tell someone and they are along for it) Then they deserve the same trial and punishment an adult gets. Releasing them back into society so they can kill someone else is just crazy. Yet you see it every day.

Last edited by <[onex]>Headstone (2006-11-13 05:18:25)

2006-11-13 05:48:54
Not Entirely Sane
Member
+6|6667|Just Outside Seattle
I think that it has to be taken on a case by case, child by child basis. There are a few young offenders that a case can justifiably be made that they are a danger to society and need to be tried as an adult. However I think that most minors are to young to be tried as adults. I really object to people being considered for the death penalty for things they commit when they are still considered children. I would like to add that I consider there to be a big difference between being in your late teens and being in your early teens, a 16 year old that drives drunk deserves to be tried as an adult but a 13 year old who is an accessory to a crime shouldn't be.

p.s. If I don't make much sense its because it's 5:47 in the morning, not exactly the time of day when I am most coherent.
2006-11-13 05:54:25
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6651|Seattle, WA
Depends really on the case and whether or not the children were cuplpable and how heinous the crime is.  Mostly I think it really depends on the crime, if its robbery, aggravated assault, etc, maybe keep em in till 18 or 21.  Probabation long after.  Really depends, this is a dynamic question with no set answer.
2006-11-13 06:02:04
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|6647|Your moms bedroom
i did some stupid shit in highschool that i wouldve never done as an adult. i consider i became an adult after college..... but you could tell who the batshit crazy kids were going to be when you were in 5th grade you know, the ones jacked up on ritalin and climbing trees at recess and throwing branch's and pieces of clothing at the teachers, or the fifth grade bully who ended up curbstomping someone before he finished highschool. I would like to know what other countries do with people under the age of 18 who commit felonies
2006-11-13 06:03:09
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6556|Southeastern USA
when you make an adult decision to get drunk and kill someone with a car you get an adult sentence
2006-11-13 06:05:35
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6723
Well most of the time, in prisons criminals learn to become better criminals...
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2006-11-13 06:19:48
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6749|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

kr@cker wrote:

when you make an adult decision to get drunk and kill someone with a car you get an adult sentence
Bit of a leap of faith saying the child is really making an adult decision - kids and teenagers do incredible stupid things all the time often with tragic consequences, however, is locking them up and throwing away the key until the day they die really the answer? what chance of redemption? what chance of rehabilitation?  where is the second chance and the opportunity to repay their debt to society?
2006-11-13 06:47:24
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6651|Seattle, WA

IG-Calibre wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

when you make an adult decision to get drunk and kill someone with a car you get an adult sentence
Bit of a leap of faith saying the child is really making an adult decision - kids and teenagers do incredible stupid things all the time often with tragic consequences, however, is locking them up and throwing away the key until the day they die really the answer? what chance of redemption? what chance of rehabilitation?  where is the second chance and the opportunity to repay their debt to society?
Careful with that rehabilitation word IG, thats a liberal mantra.  There are some that can be rehabilitated, but what kracker is saying on the whole, people have to live with their own damn decisions, whether we should try them as adults is up to a case by case review.
2006-11-13 07:29:08
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6656

AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:

Depends really on the case and whether or not the children were cuplpable and how heinous the crime is.  Mostly I think it really depends on the crime, if its robbery, aggravated assault, etc, maybe keep em in till 18 or 21.  Probabation long after.  Really depends, this is a dynamic question with no set answer.
QFT. +1
2006-11-13 07:31:05
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6749|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:

IG-Calibre wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

when you make an adult decision to get drunk and kill someone with a car you get an adult sentence
Bit of a leap of faith saying the child is really making an adult decision - kids and teenagers do incredible stupid things all the time often with tragic consequences, however, is locking them up and throwing away the key until the day they die really the answer? what chance of redemption? what chance of rehabilitation?  where is the second chance and the opportunity to repay their debt to society?
Careful with that rehabilitation word IG, thats a liberal mantra.  There are some that can be rehabilitated, but what kracker is saying on the whole, people have to live with their own damn decisions, whether we should try them as adults is up to a case by case review.
From what I can tell it seems to be at the whim of the DA what way they are tried, and that's often a political decision according to that program.  C'mon man, do you mean to tell me you're the same person you were when you were 16? even at a cellular level you are a completely different person to the one you were 7 years previous. What about the Christian ethos of Forgiveness? are all these things not  worthy of contemplation? Punishing a man for his entire life for a crime commited as a child really does not sit comfortably with me.
2006-11-13 09:55:23
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6651|Seattle, WA

IG-Calibre wrote:

From what I can tell it seems to be at the whim of the DA what way they are tried, and that's often a political decision according to that program.  C'mon man, do you mean to tell me you're the same person you were when you were 16? even at a cellular level you are a completely different person to the one you were 7 years previous. What about the Christian ethos of Forgiveness? are all these things not  worthy of contemplation? Punishing a man for his entire life for a crime commited as a child really does not sit comfortably with me.
Yeah it depends on the region and who the prosecutor is, you're completely on the mark there.  Was I the same person? Hell no.  But making a mistake or being reckless that causes the DEATH of another human being is not "boys being boys" sorry.  Christian ethos of forgiveness, what about the Christian ethos of wrath and vengeance lol, but no seriously These things ARE worthy of contemplation, why do you think we're discussing it right now, I'm never said it wasn't.  I agree with your last statement, it isn't fair, but it also isn't fair that someone else's family lost someone.  Again, case by case, depends on how old they were, etc.  Believe it or not the cases you speak of are extremely rare when someone is sentenced for LIFE for a homicide intentional or not when they are a minor.  They are usually released after 18 or 21/25 than probated for a long time.  This is a good topic and I commend you for being extremely articulate in your arguement IG.  I think the Democratic win has made you guys less nasty, its refreshing.    Good day.
2006-11-13 17:32:39
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6749|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
it isn't fair, but it also isn't fair that someone else's family lost someone
Alas this is what makes it a tragedy, i've a cousin killed a few years ago at a rally in Donegal, now the driver was never charged it was a rally for goodness sakes, doesn't make the loss any easier to bear, or lessen the heartbreak of his mother and father or Brother, but that's why tragedies are just that; in essence that's what makes them tragic.  Now to punish a man for a tragic mistake as a child for the remainder of his days is not punishment it's cruelty & inhumane imo, and how any victim could honestly believe that justice is being served by punishing them thus is beyond me..
2006-11-13 19:15:05
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6452|The Land of Scott Walker
"That's ok you killed someone, Johnny.  You were a stupid kid so it doesn't count.  Try better next time." 
2006-11-13 19:44:48
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6536|Global Command
In  general, I don't believe in rehabilitation.
2006-11-13 19:51:58
{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank
U.S. > Iran
+497|6584|Florida
I think it depends on what the crime was, and how old they are.  If it is pre-meditated murder, then by all means, regardless of what age, they should be tried as an adult, they knew what they were doing.

I agree with ATG to an extent, rehabilitation only goes so far....most of the time nowhere.

Something Ive noticed, and no offense btw, is you (IG) like to criticize the U.S. quite a bit.

IG-Calibre wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

when you make an adult decision to get drunk and kill someone with a car you get an adult sentence
Bit of a leap of faith saying the child is really making an adult decision - kids and teenagers do incredible stupid things all the time often with tragic consequences, however, is locking them up and throwing away the key until the day they die really the answer? what chance of redemption? what chance of rehabilitation?  where is the second chance and the opportunity to repay their debt to society?
If they are responsible enough to make the decision to get drunk, and get into the car to drive it, yes, they are responsible enough to make an adult decision.  Thats my view atleast.

Last edited by {BMF}*Frank_The_Tank (2006-11-13 19:57:15)

2006-11-14 04:50:01
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6749|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

ATG wrote:

In  general, I don't believe in rehabilitation.
now why doesn't that surprise me lol
2006-11-14 04:59:42
kilgoretrout
Member
+53|6477|Little Rock, AR
So, let me get this straight...  Are you saying that a person who commits capitol murder, even if they're under the legal voting age, should be let off the hook?  Capitol murder means that it was premeditated and you knew what you were doing, both of which must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt...  Granted, I didn't listen to the BBC documentary you cited because I'm about to go to bed, but it seems crazy to me that you believe that someone who commits capitol murder should be allowed back into society...  There's a huge difference between doing dumb shit when you're a kid (like I'm sure almost all of us are guilty of) and killing someone, or allowing your friends to kill someone while you're present...
2006-11-14 05:06:31
kilgoretrout
Member
+53|6477|Little Rock, AR
And actually, can you define what you mean when you say "child?"  Do you think a 17 year old is still really a "child," or does the term "child" stop applying at a different age.  Because as far as I can tell, you're referring to laws in the US that allow "children" between the ages of ~14 and 17 to be tried as adults.  While I certainly wasn't an adult at 14, I definitely had a firm grasp on the concepts of right and wrong...
2006-11-14 05:13:27
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6568
Here's a thought:

You don't consider them old enough to vote, drink, drive or join the army, yet they're old enough to be sentenced as an adult?  Wah?
2006-11-14 05:14:40
kilgoretrout
Member
+53|6477|Little Rock, AR

Bubbalo wrote:

Here's a thought:

You don't consider them old enough to vote, drink, drive or join the army, yet they're old enough to be sentenced as an adult?  Wah?
So, a 17 year old that camps outside of his high school with a rifle and kills 10 people should be let out when he's 18?  Is that what you're arguing?

Edit: I suppose a 17 year old is old enough to drive here, but he's still legally considered a child.

Last edited by kilgoretrout (2006-11-14 05:15:59)

2006-11-14 05:23:48
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6568
Here's a thought: a 2 year old who kills ten people probably needs more than a year in a cage.  Perhaps the issue there isn't what he's being tried as, but what the end result is.  Chances are he's gonna need time with a psychiatrist.
2006-11-14 11:35:11
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6452|The Land of Scott Walker

Bubbalo wrote:

Here's a thought: a 2 year old who kills ten people probably needs more than a year in a cage.  Perhaps the issue there isn't what he's being tried as, but what the end result is.  Chances are he's gonna need time with a psychiatrist.

 

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