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2006-11-08 16:48:58
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6501|Northern California

smtt686 wrote:

gimme gimme gimme, im entitled to it.  by the way, bad idea
Word.

A reality would be as I've heard many democrats suggesting...CREATE A "LIVING WAGE."  This is something done at the state level based on geographic areas where it's needed.  For example, If i'm living in San Francisco, a $10 minimum wage won't work...maybe $12 will.  But in some armpit city in Oklahoma or Missouri...$8 minimum wage would be just fine.

I don't understand why a federal minimum wage should be used..unless it's mildly increased to match the lowest state minimum wage.

Such decision making would require considerable accounting and income specialists also..not just some politicians guess.
2006-11-08 16:50:06
Fester53D&E
Member
+3|6440|Los Angeles, CA

CameronPoe wrote:

Because that's a gigantic violation of basic laws of economics and principles of supply and demand and hence doomed to failure perhaps? Unless of course you fancy an extra 20m Mexicans in your country willing to work for less...
Cameron I must not know you well enough yet.  A good leftie should want as high a "living wage" as possible.  What you said sounds like something Ronald Reagan would have come up with, and something I TOTALLY agree with.  Scary, I actually agree with something CameronPoe wrote??  Can't be!!  Time to jump off a bridge.....
2006-11-08 16:50:52
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6571
Typically wage increases happen over time to match inflation.
2006-11-08 16:53:13
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6699|Tampa Bay Florida
I agree with the increase, but the Democrats aren't officially in power until January... Republicans still have control over Congress until then
2006-11-08 16:54:19
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6565

Fester53D&E wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Because that's a gigantic violation of basic laws of economics and principles of supply and demand and hence doomed to failure perhaps? Unless of course you fancy an extra 20m Mexicans in your country willing to work for less...
Cameron I must not know you well enough yet.  A good leftie should want as high a "living wage" as possible.  What you said sounds like something Ronald Reagan would have come up with, and something I TOTALLY agree with.  Scary, I actually agree with something CameronPoe wrote??  Can't be!!  Time to jump off a bridge.....
I'm not an out and out leftie. I'm a realist. I had to take economics lectures as part of my engineering degree. Certain types of market controls just don't work. Rent control = fail. Wage control = can work but will eventually fail during an economic bust. Violate the laws of supply and demand and what do you get: black markets. And in the case of min wage that means: Mexicans!!! (or in our case Nigerians/Romanians)...
2006-11-08 16:58:32
dubbs
Member
+105|6641|Lexington, KY

Bertster7 wrote:

dubbs wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

I think it's about that in the UK.

£5.35/hour = $10.19

The UK economy isn't slowly dying. In fact it's been performing rather well, for rather a long time.
That may be true, but you did not get to $10.19 an hour over night.  The UK had to slowly get to that level.  You can not go from $5.15 to $10 over night and not expect the economy to take an impact.  There are some cities or states that will not be effected by the change that much, but the over all economy will be effected since about most of the cities/states have a minimum wage well under the $10 per hour mark.  Most of them are in between $5.15 to $7.25  According to the link, only one city has a minimum wage higher then $10 per hour, and that would be LA.  This is also a city where the cost of living is one of the higher places in the US.
Not that long. 1999 was when the UK started having any minimum wage. The economy didn't falter when a minimum wage was introduced or when they have been increased.
They UK also has an additional age group division, where if you are over 22 you get a higher pay of $10.01,  or $8.33 if you are between 18 to 22, and $6.18 if you are under 18.  In the US it is $5.15 per hour for everyone, no matter if you are 16 or if you ar 75, it is still $5.15.  Also, it seems that the UK add some value to how long you have worked in the trade, in the US, we  do not have this type of law. 

Another thing, what was the average wages per hour in the UK before 1999?  Correct me if I am wrong, but was the UK's economy failing before they joined the EU?  This would also effect the UK's economy, unlike the US, they (from my understanding which may be wrong) share an economy with the EU.  If the UK's economy is weak, the EU's economy may compensate.
2006-11-08 17:05:32
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6591|SE London

CameronPoe wrote:

Fester53D&E wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Because that's a gigantic violation of basic laws of economics and principles of supply and demand and hence doomed to failure perhaps? Unless of course you fancy an extra 20m Mexicans in your country willing to work for less...
Cameron I must not know you well enough yet.  A good leftie should want as high a "living wage" as possible.  What you said sounds like something Ronald Reagan would have come up with, and something I TOTALLY agree with.  Scary, I actually agree with something CameronPoe wrote??  Can't be!!  Time to jump off a bridge.....
I'm not an out and out leftie. I'm a realist. I had to take economics lectures as part of my engineering degree. Certain types of market controls just don't work. Rent control = fail. Wage control = can work but will eventually fail during an economic bust. Violate the laws of supply and demand and what do you get: black markets. And in the case of min wage that means: Mexicans!!! (or in our case Nigerians/Romanians)...
That might well be why the high minimum wage works in the UK. Lots of illegals. There have been respected economic studies that have shown the scenario you outline not to be the case. Try reading 'Myth and Measurement: The New Economics of the Minimum Wage' by Card and Kruger. They argue that wages increase but there is no loss of jobs.

It's not fair - how come you got to do economics as part of your engineering degree? I had to do bloody accounting for mine, that's just boring.
2006-11-08 17:08:18
jonsimon
Member
+224|6505
Seems like most of you don't have a basic understanding of economics. :\

When a price floor is created, and the price of a good is raised, quantity demanded drops. So when the price of labor increases, firms hire less labor. Simple as that. The unintended effect of a raise in the price floor of labor is a fall in the number of avaliable jobs. That considered, raising the minimum wage is an intelligent decision to compensate for past years of inflation, and to raise the lower class closer to the median.
2006-11-08 17:09:28
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6591|SE London

dubbs wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

dubbs wrote:


That may be true, but you did not get to $10.19 an hour over night.  The UK had to slowly get to that level.  You can not go from $5.15 to $10 over night and not expect the economy to take an impact.  There are some cities or states that will not be effected by the change that much, but the over all economy will be effected since about most of the cities/states have a minimum wage well under the $10 per hour mark.  Most of them are in between $5.15 to $7.25  According to the link, only one city has a minimum wage higher then $10 per hour, and that would be LA.  This is also a city where the cost of living is one of the higher places in the US.
Not that long. 1999 was when the UK started having any minimum wage. The economy didn't falter when a minimum wage was introduced or when they have been increased.
They UK also has an additional age group division, where if you are over 22 you get a higher pay of $10.01,  or $8.33 if you are between 18 to 22, and $6.18 if you are under 18.  In the US it is $5.15 per hour for everyone, no matter if you are 16 or if you ar 75, it is still $5.15.  Also, it seems that the UK add some value to how long you have worked in the trade, in the US, we  do not have this type of law. 

Another thing, what was the average wages per hour in the UK before 1999?  Correct me if I am wrong, but was the UK's economy failing before they joined the EU?  This would also effect the UK's economy, unlike the US, they (from my understanding which may be wrong) share an economy with the EU.  If the UK's economy is weak, the EU's economy may compensate.
You're not wrong. But, the UK has been within the EU (then the ECC) since 1958 which is a long time. Most EU countries have a minimum wage and then of course.....

wiki wrote:

The British economy has in recent years seen the longest period of sustained economic growth for more than 150 years, and is one of the strongest European Union economies in terms of inflation, interest rates and unemployment, all of which remain relatively low.
Seems like we're doing alright with a high minimum wage.
2006-11-08 17:09:48
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6661|USA

Harmor wrote:

Now that the newly Democratic Congress is in power, why not just set the Minimum Wage to $10/hour?
yes good question.

A far better question than asking why don't you get off your ass and make yourself marketable so you can get a GOOD job, and leave the minimum wage jobs to the high school students and college students for beer and gas money??
2006-11-08 17:09:49
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6625|do not disturb

JG1567JG wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Now that the newly Democratic Congress is in power, why not just set the Minimum Wage to $10/hour?
One answer.  INFLATION
Yup, prices go up, for everything. It's not the best way of increasing the standards of living.

Last edited by Hellogoodsir (2006-11-08 17:10:36)

2006-11-08 17:12:53
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6502|Connecticut
Most people who work minimum wage do not have a great return on investment to begin with. Why would you pay them more money to do the same amount of work. An employers profit and loss margin would plummet, and you would eventually be laid off.
Malloy must go
2006-11-08 17:17:31
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6591|SE London

lowing wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Now that the newly Democratic Congress is in power, why not just set the Minimum Wage to $10/hour?
yes good question.

A far better question than asking why don't you get off your ass and make yourself marketable so you can get a GOOD job, and leave the minimum wage jobs to the high school students and college students for beer and gas money??
Because stupid people deserve to live too and it's more productive than just giving people benefits - which is what happens otherwise. Either the tax payer has to supplement wages with benefits or the employers have to pay a higher minimum wage or you have poverty stricken families dying in the streets.
2006-11-08 17:19:39
dubbs
Member
+105|6641|Lexington, KY

Bertster7 wrote:

dubbs wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


Not that long. 1999 was when the UK started having any minimum wage. The economy didn't falter when a minimum wage was introduced or when they have been increased.
They UK also has an additional age group division, where if you are over 22 you get a higher pay of $10.01,  or $8.33 if you are between 18 to 22, and $6.18 if you are under 18.  In the US it is $5.15 per hour for everyone, no matter if you are 16 or if you ar 75, it is still $5.15.  Also, it seems that the UK add some value to how long you have worked in the trade, in the US, we  do not have this type of law. 

Another thing, what was the average wages per hour in the UK before 1999?  Correct me if I am wrong, but was the UK's economy failing before they joined the EU?  This would also effect the UK's economy, unlike the US, they (from my understanding which may be wrong) share an economy with the EU.  If the UK's economy is weak, the EU's economy may compensate.
You're not wrong. But, the UK has been within the EU (then the ECC) since 1958 which is a long time. Most EU countries have a minimum wage and then of course.....

wiki wrote:

The British economy has in recent years seen the longest period of sustained economic growth for more than 150 years, and is one of the strongest European Union economies in terms of inflation, interest rates and unemployment, all of which remain relatively low.
Seems like we're doing alright with a high minimum wage.
First, thinks for clearing some of my confussion up.
2006-11-08 17:21:23
jonsimon
Member
+224|6505

Hellogoodsir wrote:

JG1567JG wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Now that the newly Democratic Congress is in power, why not just set the Minimum Wage to $10/hour?
One answer.  INFLATION
Yup, prices go up, for everything. It's not the best way of increasing the standards of living.
Sorry to break it to you, but inflation is the REASON the minimum wage needs to be raised. Minimum wage hasn't been adjusted for inflation. Meanwhile you sit on your adjusted check and spit on the poor. Besides, price floors do not raise prices, they just cause a fall in demanded labor.
2006-11-08 17:23:57
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6661|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Now that the newly Democratic Congress is in power, why not just set the Minimum Wage to $10/hour?
yes good question.

A far better question than asking why don't you get off your ass and make yourself marketable so you can get a GOOD job, and leave the minimum wage jobs to the high school students and college students for beer and gas money??
Because stupid people deserve to live too and it's more productive than just giving people benefits - which is what happens otherwise. Either the tax payer has to supplement wages with benefits or the employers have to pay a higher minimum wage or you have poverty stricken families dying in the streets.
So basically, punish an employer and steal HIS money, so these people don't have to apply themselves..You do know that all that eventually falls back on our laps right??
2006-11-08 17:26:16
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6502|Connecticut

deeznutz1245 wrote:

Most people who work minimum wage do not have a great return on investment to begin with. Why would you pay them more money to do the same amount of work. An employers profit and loss margin would plummet, and you would eventually be laid off.
Malloy must go
2006-11-08 17:30:22
nlsme
Member
+48|6425|new york
pay everyone in mcdonalds value menu coupons, make it 2 double cheeseburgers a small fry a small soda 2 apple pies and a small strawberry shake as the minimum wage
2006-11-08 17:32:23
URE_DED
BF2s US Server Admin
+76|6629|inside the recesses of your...

TheEternalPessimist wrote:

UK minimum wage converts to $10.18, so its perfectly fair specially as your economy is much bigger.
wankers.
2006-11-08 17:33:43
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6699|Tampa Bay Florida

deeznutz1245 wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:

Most people who work minimum wage do not have a great return on investment to begin with. Why would you pay them more money to do the same amount of work. An employers profit and loss margin would plummet, and you would eventually be laid off.
Already explained, inflation.  Inflation doesn't decrease the margin in profit, it makes up for the increased margin of profit.
2006-11-08 17:34:39
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6478
A gradual increase over X years until it reaches $XX .XX would lower poverty and not do noticable damage to the economy. It would seem.
2006-11-08 17:36:11
golgoj4
Member
+51|6784|North Hollywood

CameronPoe wrote:

Because that's a gigantic violation of basic laws of economics and principles of supply and demand and hence doomed to failure perhaps? Unless of course you fancy an extra 20m Mexicans in your country willing to work for less...
No i fancy the mexicans getting their shit together and not coming here. But then i support mass deportations too...guess im an asshole who believes in the rule of law...
2006-11-08 17:36:13
nlsme
Member
+48|6425|new york
no one like my mcd's method?
2006-11-08 17:39:35
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6591|SE London

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:


yes good question.

A far better question than asking why don't you get off your ass and make yourself marketable so you can get a GOOD job, and leave the minimum wage jobs to the high school students and college students for beer and gas money??
Because stupid people deserve to live too and it's more productive than just giving people benefits - which is what happens otherwise. Either the tax payer has to supplement wages with benefits or the employers have to pay a higher minimum wage or you have poverty stricken families dying in the streets.
So basically, punish an employer and steal HIS money, so these people don't have to apply themselves..You do know that all that eventually falls back on our laps right??
All wages are adjusted for inflation. Minimum wage should be too.

Which of the alternatives would you prefer? Money direct from the tax payer in benefits? That's what they'll be claiming if they don't get increases in minimum wage, benefits cost more as well due to all the bureacracy involved. If theres one thing I really hate it's a lot of bureaucracy.

It's not about punishing employers, it's about forcing them to pay a fair wage.
2006-11-08 17:59:23
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6661|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


Because stupid people deserve to live too and it's more productive than just giving people benefits - which is what happens otherwise. Either the tax payer has to supplement wages with benefits or the employers have to pay a higher minimum wage or you have poverty stricken families dying in the streets.
So basically, punish an employer and steal HIS money, so these people don't have to apply themselves..You do know that all that eventually falls back on our laps right??
All wages are adjusted for inflation. Minimum wage should be too.

Which of the alternatives would you prefer? Money direct from the tax payer in benefits? That's what they'll be claiming if they don't get increases in minimum wage, benefits cost more as well due to all the bureacracy involved. If theres one thing I really hate it's a lot of bureaucracy.

It's not about punishing employers, it's about forcing them to pay a fair wage.
A fair wage is what YOU have made yourself worth. 10 dollars an hour for flipping a fuckin burger is pretty outrageous.

Here is another thought. Minimum wage is NOT meant to support a family. YOU are responsibable for making yourself marketable to support a family. YOU need to EARN your wage, not just be given it without any effort on your part.

Your pay is based on your value. It doesn't do your 30year old ass any good to be able to something ( flip a burger) that 100,000,000,000, KIDS can do. It really really is time for you all to get real.

 

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