TC.Troy
Let the rough side drag
+111|6575

Inspect@hDeck wrote:

Reading over this thread,and from messaging, you may get the impression that I do not respect Americans, that's not true at all.  I respect your fallen, as you probably respect our fallen. Anyone that dies defending freedom (with the exception of the Germans) deserves to be remembered as a hero.
Dude..this isnt about german bashing...
SS troops were a different breed, and not even all of them were monsters, mostly thier commanders.  The average german soldier was doing what he was told, nothing more.  In the end, they fought to protect their homes and families, not for hitler.  I'm an american, and proud of it...but there is no need to chew on german troops like that.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

ATG wrote:

" hateful patriotic fantasy?"
When I masterbate, its to a pix of the statue of liberty.
How else would you classify Mr. Devil's post?  Hateful seems a very appropriate term for his polemic.  I suppose I should expect that from someone of his namesake.

ATG, we agree on a lot of things, but you seem to be unusually permissive of hate coming from one side (pro-war) while condemning it thoroughly from the opposite (anti-war).
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command
I'm not in favor of hate of any kind.
The anti-war crowd breathes hate for W, it gets a little old.
I'm still waiting for the moral reason going into Iraq was wrong.
I'll be waiting...
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

ATG wrote:

I'm not in favor of hate of any kind.
The anti-war crowd breathes hate for W, it gets a little old.
I'm still waiting for the moral reason going into Iraq was wrong.
I'll be waiting...
I've never argued for or against Iraq as far as morals are concerned.  One could argue either way on that one, because morals are largely subjective.

On the one hand, you could argue the invasion of Iraq was moral because we liberated the Iraqi people from Saddam.

On the other hand, you could argue the invasion was immoral because we killed thousands of Iraqi civilians for what mostly amounts to feeding the military industrial complex.

I argued against the invasion because I don't like feeding the military industrial complex on general principle.  It's not in my personal interests or most other citizens' interests either.

Last edited by Turquoise (2006-11-05 11:36:17)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command
Why assume we went to war to feed the military industrial complex?
Could it be that we thought that by lifting the people up from oppression they would have better lives?
..teddy..jimmy
Member
+1,393|6651
yes and although Iraqis are still living in fear, they are in living in better social conditons then when ol. saddam was dictator
Sgt_Sieg
"Bow Chicka Bow Wow." The correct way.
+89|6776
I am STUNNED how many people in this thread have disregarded the war in the Pacific from WWII. Both of my grandfathers fought in WWII, one in the European theater and the other in the Pacific theater so I've heard lots of stories. Listen to this one: My grandfather was the Commanding Officer for a battalion on combat engineers who stayed in Europe for six years after WWII ended to help rebuild Germany. He was away from my father's family for NINE YEARS. Why? To help out our European allies and afterwords our defeated enemies.
SAS-Lt.Phoenix
Banned
+8|6404|Brooklyn, New York

Nicholas Langdon wrote:

not to take away from these soilders deaths, but every country has many soilders that have shed blood in various wars. not just americans.
Not true. Not Czechslauvokakhazstananistan
..teddy..jimmy
Member
+1,393|6651
My grandfather got the stanthorpe medal for bravery. captain of an aircraft carrier which was sunk.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command
Sgt_Sieg

I thank your family from the bottom of my heart.
His sacrifice was not in vain.

Last edited by ATG (2006-11-05 12:33:50)

..teddy..jimmy
Member
+1,393|6651
We Europeans are honestly taught to commend the americans for saving our asses in WWWII. Yes you didnt have to but you did but i cannot say that it was in vein
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6660|BC, Canada

fadedsteve wrote:

Spark wrote:

For example I have not heard a SINGLE mention of the USSR in this thread. Yet they could arguably be the most important entity in this whole conflict.
Very true! The win against Nazi Germany was hugely aided by the Russians, no doubt about it!

The Russians suffered staggering losses. . . .

I don't know why the Russians aren't given as much credit as they deserve??

I will say this, and you heard it here. . . .Stalingrad lost the war for the German's (Germany just could not recover from the losses they suffered there), NOT DDay!

Granted, Russia might not have lasted if it wasnt for allied shipments of supplies during the initial surprize attack by the Germans.  But the fact remains, Russia should take as much credit as us Americans for winning the war in Europe. 

ALL those who fight/die in the name of freedom, democracy and liberty should be prayed for, not just a select few!
russia did get the credit it deservers..... just not in american school systems, i know i was taught about it. they get far more credit than the americans for winning the war in europe. just not in the states.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

ATG wrote:

Why assume we went to war to feed the military industrial complex?
Could it be that we thought that by lifting the people up from oppression they would have better lives?
First, can you conclusively state that they are living better lives?  Some areas are better, yes, but is the country as a whole?  Saddam was brutal, but he did maintain order.  Without him or someone else brutal in charge, we've seen what militias can do to Iraq.

As far as our assumptions go, I suppose it comes down to this.  I'm a Libertarian, so more often than not, I distrust the government.  In warfare, I especially distrust the government, because of the nature of war.  Maybe we've entered war for noble reasons in the past, but when you consider the machinations of American foreign policy during the Cold War, it seems pretty obvious that we've developed a culture of manipulation.

In the name of fighting Communism, we've rationalized supporting brutal dictators -- Pinochet and Saddam to name just a few.  Our government is still one of the 5 largest international arms dealers in the world; a business in which we typically supply Third World warlords (often through private sellers, so as to arouse less attention).  We've turned the chaos of the Third World into a profitable playground for not only our arms businesses though.  Plenty of American-owned companies participate in the Cola wars and the "Blood" Diamond industry.  The government could do plenty of things about this, but they won't touch these companies due to their lobbyists and soft money.  People wonder why so much of the world hates us, but when it comes to the people affected by our corporations and our arms dealings, I can't blame them.

In the end, I still side with America out of practicality, and because we still do humanitarian things (like donate billions to the tsunami victims), but we're slowly approaching a point where we may soon do more harm to the world than good.  When it reaches that point, I may switch allegiances and citizenship.
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6744|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
Least we forget - There have been over 250 major wars in the world since World War II, in which 23 million people have been killed., tens of millions made homeless, and countless millions injured and bereaved. Over 37 (or 42) million people have by killed by wars in the 20th century. Three times more people have been killed in wars in the last 90 years than in all the previous 500.

There are over 35 major conflicts going on in the world today. In armed conflicts since 1945, 90 per cent of casualties have been civilians. 3 out of 4 fatalities of war are women and children.

In the wars of the last decade, more children were killed than soldiers. In the last decade, child victims of war include an estimated 2 million killed, 4 to 5 million disabled, 12 million left homeless, and more than 1 million orphaned.

There are 300,000 child soldiers in the world.

Landmines maim or kill approximately 26,000 civilians every year, including 8,000 to 10,000 children. At least 75% of landmine victims are civilians. It is estimated that there are between 60 and 70 million landmines in the ground in at least 70 countries.

More than 500 million small arms and light weapons are in circulation around the world. In major conflicts since 1990, they have caused 4 million deaths - about 90 per cent of them civilians, and 80 per cent women and children.

There are approximately 30,000 nuclear warheads in the world today.. Som 5,000 nuclear weapons are on hair-trigger alert, ready to be launched on a few minutes notice.

Current global military spending is approximately $800 billion per year; more than the total annual income of the poorest 45% of the global population.

Genocide and other mass murders killed more people in the 20th century than all wars combined. Between 54 and 80 million people have been killed in genocides in the the last century. Between 170 and 360 million people have been killed, in total, by governments (democide) in the 20th century, apart from war.
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6648
Without reading anything other than the original post, I can tell you that in the 8 pages of replies that CameronPoe as well as every other non-US citizen is saying something anti-US or anti-Bush. I can also tell you that these same people are ranting against US involvement in Vietnam and Iraq. And, I'm willing to put my money on CameronPoe or some other foreigner bringing an anti-Israel rant into the discussion.

It's the same people saying the same things in every thread and it's becoming quite tiresome. I rarely read any of your posts anymore, because I don't have to. For example, if I see a giant blob of text from CameronPoe in a thread about Israel or Iraq, I already know what he's ranting about. I could quote that blob of text and make a logical reply to it without even reading what he wrote. Yet this still happens in EVERY thread.

The point of this thread is simple, but not surprisingly most of you still missed it. Many Americans made the ultimate sacrifice for their country and they should be respected. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with the war they fought in, it does not change the fact that they died serving their country. Quite frankly, most of us owe our existence to those soldiers in the ground.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6389

Inspect@hDeck wrote:

ATG wrote:

Inspect@hDeck wrote:


This is what I'm talking about. I don't even have to make fun of you anymore, you guys make yourselves look stupid.
What the fuck is your point?
Are you disputing what he posted or just being an argumentative prick?
This is debate and serious talk. Okay, you think Americans are stupid, we got that.

If we hadn't gotten involved what would the world be like? or are you too stupid to answer?
The world would be almost exactly the same as it would be today.  The Americans didn't do much in WW1, and in WW2, you guys played a significantly larger part, but were still not necessary for the good guys to win. You won a lot of battles sure, but few actually contributed to the outcome.
Jesus Christ. This forum is starting to make me sick.
..teddy..jimmy
Member
+1,393|6651

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

Without reading anything other than the original post, I can tell you that in the 8 pages of replies that CameronPoe as well as every other non-US citizen is saying something anti-US or anti-Bush. I can also tell you that these same people are ranting against US involvement in Vietnam and Iraq. And, I'm willing to put my money on CameronPoe or some other foreigner bringing an anti-Israel rant into the discussion.

It's the same people saying the same things in every thread and it's becoming quite tiresome. I rarely read any of your posts anymore, because I don't have to. For example, if I see a giant blob of text from CameronPoe in a thread about Israel or Iraq, I already know what he's ranting about. I could quote that blob of text and make a logical reply to it without even reading what he wrote. Yet this still happens in EVERY thread.

The point of this thread is simple, but not surprisingly most of you still missed it. Many Americans made the ultimate sacrifice for their country and they should be respected. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with the war they fought in, it does not change the fact that they died serving their country. Quite frankly, most of us owe our existence to those soldiers in the ground.
he has a point
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

Sgt_Sieg wrote:

I am STUNNED how many people in this thread have disregarded the war in the Pacific from WWII. Both of my grandfathers fought in WWII, one in the European theater and the other in the Pacific theater so I've heard lots of stories. Listen to this one: My grandfather was the Commanding Officer for a battalion on combat engineers who stayed in Europe for six years after WWII ended to help rebuild Germany. He was away from my father's family for NINE YEARS. Why? To help out our European allies and afterwords our defeated enemies.
Thanks for sharing.  Words cannot describe my appreciation of what our grandfathers did for us and the world.  That was a much more honorable era for America.  We came so close to the ideal of a benevolent protector of the world in the early days after the war.  Somewhere during the Cold War, we lost our way by doing anything in the name of fighting Communism....   

By the way, my grandfather was in WW2 in the 82nd Airborne.  He's told me some interesting things to say the least....
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6660|BC, Canada

ATG wrote:

Nicholas Langdon wrote:

Lasdferret wrote:


Get your head out of your ass, the thread was made in rememberance (sp?) of out troops. We never said we won the war by ourselves, BUT we were a big key in winning WWII. America (Atleast the one I know) respects our allies like we respect our troops. Your acting like we praise that we died more than your guys did, well guess what? Were not!
read the first page of posts at least, because yes this is exactly what ATG is saying.
I never said any such thing, stop being blinded by your own hate; its annoying!
ok.... you mean to tell me you actually started this thread in rememberance....
not a jab a bubbalo....
you mean to tell me that you were not implying that american has given up more than any other country for the world?
i am not being blinded by my own hate...
it is your blind patriotism that is out of wack here.
american is not the be all and end all of the world.
you are not the reason that everthing is the way it is, and every one or country is here.
i do not hate you, i am simply trying to get this point across to you.
yes american is the most major superpower at the moment, that does not mean you created the world in 7 days.
..teddy..jimmy
Member
+1,393|6651
this thread is getting derailed.
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6648

Nicholas Langdon wrote:

ok.... you mean to tell me you actually started this thread in rememberance....
not a jab a bubbalo....
you mean to tell me that you were not implying that american has given up more than any other country for the world?
i am not being blinded by my own hate...
it is your blind patriotism that is out of wack here.
american is not the be all and end all of the world.
you are not the reason that everthing is the way it is, and every one or country is here.
i do not hate you, i am simply trying to get this point across to you.
yes american is the most major superpower at the moment, that does not mean you created the world in 7 days.
A poorly formatted post in broken English. Why does it not surprise me that you also have no clue what you're talking about? Honestly, what the hell are you arguing about? No one said the US created the world in 7 days, the entire point of this thread is to recognize the sacrifice that US soldiers have made. You ARE blinded by your hatred and, as a result, couldn't even see the point of this thread.

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-11-05 13:09:31)

-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6660|BC, Canada
if that is what you think, then that is what you think....
i do not really hate anything is this world, with the execption of telephone anwsering services that can never quite get you to the right place.
i do however get quite frustrated at people, particularily americans on this site (not in general), who seem to think that they have done more for the world than any other country.
as for the broken english thing... its first thing in the morning, and its an internet debate, i dont really care if all the i's are dotted properly as long as the point is there, i know it wont get across.
i have never seen one thead be "won" here, neither side of any debate has given more than an inch here or there, just slight bits of respect if someone puts up a semi-respectable post.
i am not here to win any debate, that is a futile effort.
and as for this thread turning into a flame wars against americans it was ATG who singled american out in the first place, were it a real attempt to pay respect, he would have included more than just his promised land in that little bit of homage.

Last edited by Nicholas Langdon (2006-11-05 13:18:33)

..teddy..jimmy
Member
+1,393|6651
mmm thank you for stating the obvious
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6648

Nicholas Langdon wrote:

if that is what you think, then that is what you think....
Not think, know. Your post was poorly formatted, in broken English, and, most importantly, it did not address any argument made in this thread, much less the thread's topic.

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-11-05 13:11:37)

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