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2006-11-02 14:04:47
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6717|The Land of Scott Walker
•    3,500 babies aborted daily
•    24,500 weekly
•    105,000 monthly
•    1,277,500 yearly

Total since Roe v. Wade = 47 million in the United States alone

3rd week of pregnancy – baby’s heart already begins to beat
5th week – basis for the baby’s brain, bone marrow, and nervous system are in place
7th week – baby has reflexes and can move spontaneously
8th week – face and jaw are formed
9th week – baby opens his/her mouth for the 1st time, eyes are completely formed, heart is beating about 150 beat per minute
11th week – baby can swallow, all vital organs are formed
12th week - baby can bend arms, twist wrists and elbows, clench and open fists, face becomes animated, allowing for pinching of the eyebrows or pursing of the lips
13th week – baby can turn head freely, bending of fingers now takes place
15th week – baby begins to hear and can hear his/her mother’s voice
16th week - baby reacts to visual stimulations and will use the hands to protect the eyes from external light, moves around a lot. 

Development continues at an amazing pace after this, but I will stop here where the baby can hear his/her mother’s voice and use his/her hands to shield its eyes from light.  This is a human being, not a blob of tissue.  America is outraged over deaths in war, but cannot muster defense for the most vulnerable in our society – infants.  It is a tragedy on the scale of the Holocaust yet America stands by while 3,500 babies killed in the US every day and the abortion industry profits from it.  If a pregnant mother is hit by a drunk driver and her baby dies as a result of injuries from the accident, it’s a tragedy and the family mourns the death of the child.  If the mother chooses to kill her baby in a hospital, it’s a “medical procedure” that a doctor makes money for performing.  Anyone else see a problem here?
2006-11-02 14:10:57
Chief_(OwNaGe)
Member
+46|6716
abortion sucks, its just murder with a different name.
2006-11-02 14:15:32
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6763|Northern California

Stingray24 wrote:

America is outraged over deaths in war, but cannot muster defense for the most vulnerable in our society – infants.
I think the outrage is considerably less because the majority of Americans support abortion.  I do in the event of serious or life threatening complications to the mother and possibly in the event of rape and incest.

Also, the lives being lost in warfare are developed lives where people have much more intimate attachment than they would with a 2-40 week old fetus.

And just a personal note regarding when "I" think it's a human being...I believe that when the heart beats (2 weeks, actually), it's a living soul.  I believe that when the spirit (something created by God) goes into the "mortal tabernacle", or fetus, it's a living soul.  But I also believe the value of mom is higher than that soul.  If I am to choose between my wife and one of my kids, sadly i have to chose my wife.  Same application for choosing an abortion.

But the people doing abortion as a means of lazy birth control, yes, those people are killers and they will have their day of accountability.  And on the same hand, someone bombing the clinic that performs that abortion, or that person's home or car is JUST as guilty of murder as said aborting mother.
2006-11-02 14:16:03
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6966|San Francisco
It's no one's business to legislate on.  You violate the privacy rights of the mother if you start assigning legalities to fetuses.

There are many instances when abortions are necessary, and there are many instances where abortions might seem morally wrong.  If you don't like abortion, don't have one.  Stop trying to legislate morality. 
2006-11-02 14:23:13
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6763|Northern California

Marconius wrote:

It's no one's business to legislate on.  You violate the privacy rights of the mother if you start assigning legalities to fetuses.

There are many instances when abortions are necessary, and there are many instances where abortions might seem morally wrong.  If you don't like abortion, don't have one.
They've already legislated on it, and I think it was worthy legislation..to consider a second count of murder/manslaughter if someone kills a pregnant woman.  Why is this considered ok but not the free choice of a woman to kill the same unborn baby?  Should the law be thrown out?

I see your point, and it's sad that such a reality is taking place...that basic morals of "ending a life" as a choice protected by "privacy" is considered something to protect. 

I would rather see every person capable of reproduction attend a course teaching about the sanctity of life before being allowed to reproduce, but that's not possible.
2006-11-02 14:27:22
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,054|7044|PNW

Marconius wrote:

It's no one's business to legislate on.  You violate the privacy rights of the mother if you start assigning legalities to fetuses.

There are many instances when abortions are necessary, and there are many instances where abortions might seem morally wrong.  If you don't like abortion, don't have one.  Stop trying to legislate morality. 
Then it's nobody's business to legislate whether or not I can shoot a housebreaker, let alone whether or not some lady can kill her baby.
2006-11-02 14:30:01
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6923|USA

Marconius wrote:

It's no one's business to legislate on.  You violate the privacy rights of the mother if you start assigning legalities to fetuses.

There are many instances when abortions are necessary, and there are many instances where abortions might seem morally wrong.  If you don't like abortion, don't have one.  Stop trying to legislate morality. 
When exactly, do you consider a baby a person, worthy of protection? I kinda thought morality was the basis of deciding what kind of society we tendered.
2006-11-02 14:36:15
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6717|The Land of Scott Walker

Marconius wrote:

It's no one's business to legislate on.  You violate the privacy rights of the mother if you start assigning legalities to fetuses.

There are many instances when abortions are necessary, and there are many instances where abortions might seem morally wrong.  If you don't like abortion, don't have one.  Stop trying to legislate morality. 
Privacy rights?  What about the child’s right as a human being to live?  I dispute your statement that there are many instances when abortions are necessary.  Rarely is an abortion medically necessary to save a mother’s life.  It’s sad that our nation would have to create legislation to prevent parent’s from killing their own offspring.  Roll your eyes at that one. 

IRONCHEF wrote:

If I am to choose between my wife and one of my kids, sadly i have to chose my wife.  Same application for choosing an abortion.

But the people doing abortion as a means of lazy birth control, yes, those people are killers and they will have their day of accountability.  And on the same hand, someone bombing the clinic that performs that abortion, or that person's home or car is JUST as guilty of murder as said aborting mother.
In the rare event that an abortion will save the mother’s life, I agree with you.  I agree with you on your thoughts of when a baby is a human being completely.  I would have an extremely very hard time choosing between my wife and my child in the event her life was in danger.  I was almost in that very situation.   My wife’s blood pressure spiked so high during delivery that she almost had a seizure and her liver function started to shut down.  They started her on drugs to speed up delivery and took my son early.  Thanks to God, my son is healthy and after a longer stay in the hospital, my wife was fine.  Abortion is the ultimate lazy birth control, as you say and an abortion clinic bomber is just as guilty of murder.
2006-11-02 14:36:59
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7008|Salt Lake City

Abstinence only sex education has failed.  The fact of the matter is that people are having sex.  Far too many people believe that if teens are taught the entire truth, including the truth about birth control that they will be more likely to have sex.  The fact is they already are, without being educated about all the facts, and that should include birth control.

Abortions were going on long before it became legal, and making illegal will only force it underground again.

As for people that get tried for killing two people if the mother was pregnant, that happens because it wasn't their choice to make.  The only person that should be able to make that decision is the mother.

And for the record I'm all for people being told all their options, including adoption, before they can get an elective abortion.  I'm also for elective abortions only being available during the first trimester.  After that abortions should only be performed when the baby has fatal deformities, or the mother's life is at risk for carrying the baby to term.

I also think the "No questions asked." policy is one of the better ideas to come along.  A mother can drop the baby off at any hospital without questions.  This will prevent the number of deaths that result from mothers killing the baby shortly after birth.

Last edited by Agent_Dung_Bomb (2006-11-02 14:39:26)

2006-11-02 14:42:25
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7038|Cambridge (UK)

Stingray24 wrote:

3rd week of pregnancy – baby’s heart already begins to beat
5th week – basis for the baby’s brain, bone marrow, and nervous system are in place
7th week – baby has reflexes and can move spontaneously
8th week – face and jaw are formed
9th week – baby opens his/her mouth for the 1st time, eyes are completely formed, heart is beating about 150 beat per minute
11th week – baby can swallow, all vital organs are formed
12th week - baby can bend arms, twist wrists and elbows, clench and open fists, face becomes animated, allowing for pinching of the eyebrows or pursing of the lips
13th week – baby can turn head freely, bending of fingers now takes place
15th week – baby begins to hear and can hear his/her mother’s voice
16th week - baby reacts to visual stimulations and will use the hands to protect the eyes from external light, moves around a lot. 

Development continues at an amazing pace after this, but I will stop here where the baby can hear his/her mother’s voice and use his/her hands to shield its eyes from light.  This is a human being, not a blob of tissue.
It may not be 'a blob of tissue'. But a 16week-old fetus is not a fully formed human being in any sense of the word. There is a reason that pregnancy takes 9months (39weeks) - that's how long it takes to form a fully developed human infant.

Stingray24 wrote:

Anyone else see a problem here?
No.

Do you eat meat? Every cow, chicken, pig and sheep that is slaughtered for food is way way beyond a 16week fetus in terms of development and deserves far more rights than we routinely give them.

This may seem like a moot point, but it's not - to think of a 16week old fetus as valid-lifeform is to not understand what that fetus is - take it out of the womb and it will die - it cannot exist outside the womb without a staggering amount of life-support machinery.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2006-11-02 14:43:45)

2006-11-02 14:46:20
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6717|The Land of Scott Walker

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Abstinence only sex education has failed.  The fact of the matter is that people are having sex.  Far too many people believe that if teens are taught the entire truth, including the truth about birth control that they will be more likely to have sex.  The fact is they already are, without being educated about all the facts, and that should include birth control.

Abortions were going on long before it became legal, and making illegal will only force it underground again.

As for people that get tried for killing two people if the mother was pregnant, that happens because it wasn't their choice to make.  The only person that should be able to make that decision is the mother.

And for the record I'm all for people being told all their options, including adoption, before they can get an elective abortion.  I'm also for elective abortions only being available during the first trimester.  After that abortions should only be performed when the baby has fatal deformities, or the mother's life is at risk for carrying the baby to term.

I also think the "No questions asked." policy is one of the better ideas to come along.  A mother can drop the baby off at any hospital without questions.  This will prevent the number of deaths that result from mothers killing the baby shortly after birth.
Yes, let's educate teens how to be smart since they are having sex.  However, birth control is not bulletproof, which I'm sure you're well aware of, so it's not the full solution, either.  Abortion is the ultimate assault on a woman when she has not been told all her options in a thoughtful manner.  Many women who were not informed carry their grief to this day and have mental health issues and physical health issues because of the abortion.  If the baby has fatal deformities, let the parents hold their child before he/she dies.  I have friends that did just that, though the doctors tried time and time again to get them to abort.  They don't regret their decision.  The "no questions asked" policy is a good idea to protect the infant and the mother after birth so they get proper medical care.
2006-11-02 14:49:52
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6763|Northern California

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Abstinence only sex education has failed.
It has failed because lazy parents let schools teach their children.  Parent's are partially responsible when their little precious comes home pregnant or having knocked up a girl friend.  And the teaching a parent does isn't just saying "don't have sex or I'll cut your balls off" or "i'll take your car keys away for a month."  Such teaching moments (if the parents even fathom how important life is) come from parents when their kids are just learning to speak by teaching them that mommies and daddies make babies, etc.  As they grow older, hopefully a parent is teaching how important it is to be married first, and "why" having babies without being married is so hard.  Teaching the sanctity of life to kids, showing your effection towards your spouse in front of your kids to teach them that families=happiness, and teaching moral purity are EASy things to teach...and when they turn horny...you build on that foundation as they approach the dangerous ages and bad influences.  But again, this can only happen if the parent respects life and family in such a way...which sadly is probably not very well represented these days.

I'm also aware that ANYTHING can still happen, despite the education.  But at least you've done your best as a parent, and given your kids a much greater chance at not bringing unwanted babies into the world.
2006-11-02 14:52:04
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6979|67.222.138.85

Marconius wrote:

It's no one's business to legislate on.  You violate the privacy rights of the mother if you start assigning legalities to fetuses.

There are many instances when abortions are necessary, and there are many instances where abortions might seem morally wrong.  If you don't like abortion, don't have one.  Stop trying to legislate morality. 
And Marconus pulls through again with the voice of reason.
2006-11-02 14:52:20
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6717|The Land of Scott Walker

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

It may not be 'a blob of tissue'. But a 16week-old fetus is not a fully formed human being in any sense of the word. There is a reason that pregnancy takes 9months (39weeks) - that's how long it takes to form a fully developed human infant. Do you eat meat? Every cow, chicken, pig and sheep that is slaughtered for food is way way beyond a 16week fetus in terms of development and deserves far more rights than we routinely give them.

This may seem like a moot point, but it's not - to think of a 16week old fetus as valid-lifeform is to not understand what that fetus is - take it out of the womb and it will die - it cannot exist outside the womb without a staggering amount of life-support machinery.
What a crass analogy.  You make me sick.  I understand what a 16 week old "fetus" is - A BABY!  And as such is a valid "lifeform" outside or inside the womb.  It's a human life with a soul, not a sheep!
2006-11-02 14:56:15
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6966|San Francisco
No matter which way this goes, it always comes down to where people start considering a fetus an actual human being.  An in vitro fetus is a fetus, and becomes a full on baby at the end of the 3rd trimester; a full on person directly at birth as soon as doctors can cut the cord and establish his or her identity.

Under those terms, an abortion is not murder, as there was no individual life to begin with.  The fetus is still part of the mother until it becomes fully self-sustainable at the end of term/birth.

Stingray, do you understand the full abortion process?  Have you been in a Planned Parenthood clinic?

Plus, you are assuming that everyone believes that every living thing has a "soul," which is very much NOT the case...
2006-11-02 15:00:43
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,054|7044|PNW

Then if someone has a kid but doesn't get 'it' registered as an individual, then it's ok to kill it, because they're not a 'full-on person.' Great!
2006-11-02 15:04:29
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6966|San Francisco
An argument built on "ifs" is an argument built on sand...
2006-11-02 15:04:46
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6923|USA

Marconius wrote:

No matter which way this goes, it always comes down to where people start considering a fetus an actual human being.  An in vitro fetus is a fetus, and becomes a full on baby at the end of the 3rd trimester; a full on person directly at birth as soon as doctors can cut the cord and establish his or her identity.

Under those terms, an abortion is not murder, as there was no individual life to begin with.  The fetus is still part of the mother until it becomes fully self-sustainable at the end of term/birth.

Stingray, do you understand the full abortion process?  Have you been in a Planned Parenthood clinic?

Plus, you are assuming that everyone believes that every living thing has a "soul," which is very much NOT the case...
Reason number 984 to think you are repulsive. Babies can sustain life without being in the womb long before birth
2006-11-02 15:06:02
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6717|The Land of Scott Walker

Marconius wrote:

No matter which way this goes, it always comes down to where people start considering a fetus an actual human being.  An in vitro fetus is a fetus, and becomes a full on baby at the end of the 3rd trimester; a full on person directly at birth as soon as doctors can cut the cord and establish his or her identity.

Under those terms, an abortion is not murder, as there was no individual life to begin with.  The fetus is still part of the mother until it becomes fully self-sustainable at the end of term/birth.

Stingray, do you understand the full abortion process?  Have you been in a Planned Parenthood clinic?

Plus, you are assuming that everyone believes that every living thing has a "soul," which is very much NOT the case...
So my son was not a "full on baby" 8 weeks before full term when he was delivered early???  Are you fucking serious?  I do understand the full abortion process.  It's brutal and sickening.  Especially partial birth where the abortionist stabs scissors into the back of the head of a fully healthy infant and sucks the brain matter out.  I can post the details of the other earlier term abortions if you like.  I have a question: do you have kids?  If you do, you have a stone heart to keep believing they were not a "full on person" until exited their mother. 

How bout this . . . I'll fight for the rights of moo cows when you grow a spine and will stand up for defeneless infants.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2006-11-02 15:07:07)

2006-11-02 15:08:04
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6966|San Francisco
Really, lowing?  So a 16th week fetus will grow into a fully formed baby if removed from the womb with no medical attention/only crude nurturing?  Intriguing.  What biology classes taught you that?

There's a reason why I said "end of term" added along with "at birth."
2006-11-02 15:08:51
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6763|Northern California
Marconius is right, this debate hinges on definition of a "soul."  If you've had children, if you've sung songs to it through it's mother's belly, if you've felt it kick you or mock you for singing, if you've heard it hiccup..then there is no debate..it's a living soul with an identity, with rights, with purpose and with a full, bright future.

If you've not had children, and haven't experienced those things..then yes, it can be easy to simply assign the lump of tissue as an unprotected blob of nothing.  Sad, but it's true.
2006-11-02 15:13:59
RoosterCantrell
Goodbye :)
+399|6752|Somewhere else

Sorry if I sound cold, but.....

war, disease, accidents, and murder area part of the human race.  And the human race is overpopulating the world.  I feel if the parent wants to do an abortion. Good. If the mother feels an abortion is the right choice, then it is.  It is because if the mother concludes to this decision, than she is unfit, very obviously, to properly raise a child.  now, if she had no choice to abort, but only to raise a child, she would be burdened, and more than likely (not always of course) raise a real gem of society that would end up being a burden on humanity.

So many people are defending the unborn, but in time the unwanted unborn (by thier family) would end up derelicts and criminals, due to thier parents not truelly wanting them and raising them in a negative environment. While killing the unborn is a bit wrong, I agree, I never see such a willful campaign for life when it comes to abortion. I mean really, if people die of preventable diseases, it goes mostly unchecked, but if its willful death in a leading world country its taboo.  IF anti- abortionists are so pro life, why is it only towards abortion? what about starvation? isn't a starving child wrong when it can be prevented?  I just think its hyocritcal for people to attack people who have abortions, but do nothing to protect actual living human being who are already born and suffering...
2006-11-02 15:14:35
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6966|San Francisco
Stingray, you do NOT understand the full abortion process.  You skipped over the strict counseling set in place and the countermeasures used to make absolutely certain that it is what the mother wants.  I have friends who have had abortions, and I have several friends that have worked in abortion clinics and on several political campaigns.  I know how everything works.

Again, every case is different.  By making abortion illegal, those that will want/need them will go back to the ways already used to carry them out.  Wire coat hangers do a hell of a lot more damage then anti-fetal medication or the processes used now.
2006-11-02 15:14:55
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6923|USA

Marconius wrote:

Really, lowing?  So a 16th week fetus will grow into a fully formed baby if removed from the womb with no medical attention/only crude nurturing?  Intriguing.  What biology classes taught you that?

There's a reason why I said "end of term" added along with "at birth."
I know exactly what you said, you better check the definition of "term".

Post-Term: Pregnancy lasting more than 42 weeks.
Preterm: Babies born earlier than 37 weeks.

and yes a baby born in pre-term can survive.

""""Under those terms, an abortion is not murder, as there was no individual life to begin with.  The fetus is still part of the mother until it becomes fully self-sustainable at the end of term/birth."""" <----Marconius wrote
2006-11-02 15:19:00
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,054|7044|PNW

Marconius wrote:

Really, lowing?  So a 16th week fetus will grow into a fully formed baby if removed from the womb with no medical attention/only crude nurturing?  Intriguing.  What biology classes taught you that?

There's a reason why I said "end of term" added along with "at birth."
Really, Marconius? So a newborn infant will grow into a fully formed adolescent if removed from anyone's care?

 

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