BF2S Forums For those still in Denial

Before I give my retort, which will come in several posts because posts that are too big frighten people off, can I ask one or two questions first:

What is the purpose of the video? What is it trying to get across?

I don't see much of an 'argument' per se in the video against which to make a counterpoint other than to share my views on radical islam. I am having problems with the pointfulness of the video.

PREFACE

Point One: Dealing with this 'Global Threat' falsehood within the video and dealing with the issue of who is their enemy and why they are hated.

Radical Islam is a 'global theat'. It mentions 'every single country'.
- How is it affecting things in Argentina? Panamá? South Africa? New Zealand? Malawi? Perú? Mexico? Japan? China? Korea? Madagascar? Latvia? Norway? Iceland? Belarus? Cameroon? Chile? Brazil? Slovenia? LOL

The video should be retitled 'Threat to USA, Israel and perhaps maybe the UK'. The enemy is Israel and this in turn makes USA an enemy (it being the satellite state of Israel - $84bn in financial and miltary aid since the foundation of the state & vetoes on every bill in the UN!!!). The UK has sadly, against the majority wishes of their population, been sucked into the axis of Israel too.

Now put things in context here:

I am irate at Israel for I have believed they have done wrong and I believe they are a terrorist state and I'm not even Arabic, Persian or a Muslim. Now imagine how they feel. Having to put up with their arch enemy in their back yard. An enemy that continues to swallow up more and more Palestinian land by the day. A country that denies Palestine the right to have their capital in Jerusalem, the site of the third holiest shrine in ALL OF ISLAM (thus understandably riling not just Palestinians but all muslims). Clinton came up with an ingenious solution to the Dome of the Rock problem but alas that chance came and went. So we understand why muslims take an interest in Palestine. Fellow gene-pool members (Arabs) will understandably be angered by Israeli crimes (against human rights, etc.) in the occupied territories also. I'm sure Americans felt sorry for Londoners when the tube was blown up, for instance.

Now to USA. USA is inextricably linked to Israel. Some would say Israel wields a disproportionate amount of control (some would say total control) over USA and the evidence suggests that there is an element of truth in this. The USA since its inception has been all about conquest and imperialism: the wild west - battling the injuns and laying down the railroads, the war with Mexico to take Northern Mexico (Texas, etc.), the war with Spain to take their new world possessions (Puerto Rico, etc.) and the Phillipines, the economic conquest of all of Latin America much to the detriment of the residents, funding tyrants like Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega and King Fahd, undermining democratic government in Venezuela for obviously financial/strategic reasons. The government of the USA has, for the entire duration of its history, been about getting ahead at the expense of others. It even sold out its buddy the UK in the Suez Canal crisis to end the UK's role as a major world power and clear the path for itself. Is it any wonder the rest of the world fears the US? I fear the US FFS! And what does the US do when 9/11 happens? Go for a completely unrelated target before the primary target has even fully been dealt with. Stinks of ulterior motives to me. Oil? Israeli security? Who knows. Only the PNAC knows. Look up their website for some worrisome rubbish planned by them for us in 'the rest of the world' and some even more worrying signatories. Israel is not wanted in the middle east and neither is its 'weapon of mass destruction': the USA.

Now to other western nations: read up on French cruelty in Algeria and British antics in the Suez (who incidentally used Israel as their primary weapon) for yet more reasons to distrust 'the west'. The Suez crisis bears a remarkable resemblence to the goings on in Iraq of today. Britains failure then marked the end of their empire, will the US suffer a similar fate? BTW, I was actually pretty shocked at the French when I read about Algeria. Total unrepentant cunts.

So we've established why 'we' are the enemy here. I can understand why people might want to attack the west. We have grown fat off the misery of others. They themselves are partly to blame but we must take a share of the blame in their miseries.

Please hold back on replies while I prepare the next part of the retort which further addresses issues based on my preface here.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-01 13:10:05)

OMG, soo much bullshit. Did u see how they called them two people, "Palestinian journalist". LOLOL. Complete bullshit. Also these people really need to get more material, THE AMOUNT OF TIMES, i have seen the same old shit is unbelievable. The same old people talking, the same old kids wanting to die so some jewish dude can die.

BTW, WTF do u expect the Palestinian kid to say? He don't need to be taught about hating isreal, he's been getting screwed over enough times to know what to think and what to do.

Point Three: The Hypocrisy of the Video

The video tries to make the point that leaders in the islamic world are galvanising their subjects in the islamic world against the US and other major western powers by portraying them as vile and evil murderers and a threat to their safety. Sound familiar? Turn on FOX News. Turn on CBS. Turn on whatever fucking station you like and you get the same shit on our stations (perhaps put more subtly to appeal to our sensibilities - different cultures after all). This video is itself doing what it is accusing middle eastern leaders of doing - and tries to absolve itself with one measly line at the start saying 'we know all muslims aren't bad..yada yada'. They then happily proceed to lay the ideas that muslims in general are bad (by association) in the minds of those who may not be so discerning (but have votes nonetheless!).

Point Four: Children

Indoctrination does occur in the middle east, there's no doubting that. I can remember as a child developing a hatred for the British based on what I learned they had done to my country and what I experienced every time I had to travel to or go through Northern Ireland. I have mellowed almost completely (and the anger was directly solely against the British government, their security apparatus and Loyalists - not ordinary Brits), as has the situation, but this had LITTLE TO DO WITH MY UPBRINGING. My parents are ethnically Irish but  my mother is from Glasgow and my father is from London. My father held views that were diametrically opposed to my own. I clearly remember wishing Ian Paisley got his head ventilated by the IRA. I often wished Ariel Sharon copped a bullet as an adult. These Palestinian children you see are being brainwashed to a certain extent but then again their uncles, fathers, brothers and whatnot are being killed on a daily basis by Israelis. The grotty homes in which they suffer are as a result of Israeli injustice. They don't need schooling to teach them who the bad guy is. The hard facts of life are staring them in the face. Their ethnic brethren in other countries feel for them and they too learn about Israeli injustices at an early age - as demonstrated in the Bahrain clip. In a similar fashion, Irish-Americans who felt for subjugated Irish in Ireland down through the ages sympathised and sent financial aid, etc. to my ancestors. Will you teach your children about the day America was attacked on 9/11? What impact might that have on them? There are many parallels between 'them' and 'us'.

The children state quite normal desires: kill the figurehead of the nations causing us misery. Do you think Palestinian families sit around the TV avoiding speaking badly of the US and Israel so as not to affect the way their children think? LOL. When Bush came into office he did something that NO OTHER WESTERN POLITICAN OR AMERICAN PRESIDENT has done since the UN was founded. He alluded to the fact that some of the ILLEGAL west bank Israeli settlements might have to stay. From this one action alone it was obvious that he is 100% complicit with Israels plans for the destruction of Palestine. As such, he's a legitimate target for their hatred. Clinton brought Palestinians and ISraelis within a whisker of peace. Bush has orated about a non-existent 'Road Map for Peace' and sat idle while Israel has consolidated and been allowed to build a ruddy great wall that annexes a further few % of what little land the Palestinians have left.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-01 13:43:37)

Cpoe pwened another thread i see.

Is that an electoral video made by the Republicans or funded by them?  Fact is they're desperately  trying to make the Islamists out to be fascist in the vain hope that no one will notice that if anyone is using a fascist methodology it's  them! brilliant!! "ya I was a Nazi and I can tell you ze Islamics are ze same"  - I was surprised it didn't say vote Republican at the end of it..

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2006-11-01 13:36:30)

CameronPoe wrote:

Point Three: The Hypocrisy of the Video

The video tries to make the point that leaders in the islamic world are galvanising their subjects in the islamic world against the US and other major western powers by portraying them as vile and evil murderers and a threat to their safety. Sound familiar? Turn on FOX News. Turn on CBS. Turn on whatever fucking station you like and you get the same shit on our stations (perhaps put more subtly to appeal to our sensibilities - different cultures after all). This video is itself doing what it is accusing middle eastern leaders of doing - and tries to absolve itself with one measly line at the start saying 'we know all muslims aren't bad..yada yada'. They then happily proceed to lay the ideas that muslims in general are bad (by association) in the minds of those who may not be so discerning (but have votes nonetheless!).

By showing what is being aired on Islamic television? Even if you ignored what everyone else said and just paid attention to the people screaming ,"death to America". Hypocrisy..lmfao. Ok, let's have a demonstration and have thousands of Americans shouting death to Iran and see what happens in the world community. Hypocrisy? Are you seriously trying to say we behave the same way?

A one way train that just drove by an opportunity to think outside of the box. You seem to have an agenda that drives by everything else. It is quite obvious that you want to just go off on your tangent and put your blinders on.

People have every right to know how there enemy feels about them without others like you getting hysterical about it.

IG-Calibre wrote:

Is that an electoral video made by the Republicans or funded by them? .

Actually it has a hard time getting distributed here for fear of being politically incorrect.

eagles1106 wrote:

MMM, immediately what they think of America and other countries applies to every damn citezen in that country, so therefor innocents deserve to die.  Because of what some fat fuck over a podium says , minds are pulled into believing this shit.  They're not real Muslims.  They're fucking animals.  No, this video didnt brainwash me or make me believe anything.  Some sand fuckers not even a fraction of the earths population arent going to intimidate me or do anything.  Bring it fuckers.  Don't be afraid of this band of idiots.

FFS read the fucking first few lines in the video.

Last edited by Kmarion (2006-11-01 13:42:24)

^^ He seems to be worried that posting something like that endorses aggression when the only thing I was trying to say is change.

eagles1106 wrote:

MMM, immediately what they think of America and other countries applies to every damn citezen in that country, so therefor innocents deserve to die.  Because of what some fat fuck over a podium says , minds are pulled into believing this shit.  They're not real Muslims.  They're fucking animals.  No, this video didnt brainwash me or make me believe anything.  Some sand fuckers not even a fraction of the earths population arent going to intimidate me or do anything.  Bring it fuckers.  Don't be afraid of this band of idiots.

KILLLLLLLLLLL THEM ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL I SAYY. GO FORWARD BROTHER, SHOW THEM YOUR WARTH.

ps. /scasum

CameronPoe wrote:

Point Three: The Hypocrisy of the Video

The video tries to make the point that leaders in the islamic world are galvanising their subjects in the islamic world against the US and other major western powers by portraying them as vile and evil murderers and a threat to their safety. Sound familiar? Turn on FOX News. Turn on CBS. Turn on whatever fucking station you like and you get the same shit on our stations (perhaps put more subtly to appeal to our sensibilities - different cultures after all). This video is itself doing what it is accusing middle eastern leaders of doing - and tries to absolve itself with one measly line at the start saying 'we know all muslims aren't bad..yada yada'. They then happily proceed to lay the ideas that muslims in general are bad (by association) in the minds of those who may not be so discerning (but have votes nonetheless!).

Sure now on TV that's the case.

But before 9/11 you are in error.  Sure there was a few Islamic extremists attacks here and there, but that was some other country's problem.  The West's impression of the Arab world was that they have a lot of oil and want our money, and there was a few nutjobs but they can't do anything to affect me - pre-9/11 ideas.

But I'm pretty sure the mullah's fireside hate-chats have been happening for eternity.

You cited US military support for Israel.  Perhaps it's needed so Israel isn't wiped off the map.  Israel shouldn't exist?  Okay, well what do you want to do with all the Israelis?  Palestine is getting the shaft?  Ok, what's a reasonable compromise with Israel?

Unfortunately these extremists are forcing violence in the region.  I would pretty much guarantee you that if Israel pulled back to the old lines and paid reparations...they'd still be attacked.  And I'm sure that if the US broke all ties with Israel, pulled out of Iraq and provided assistance as needed, we'd still be targets.

So if there is ANY possible way of not having violence, what is it?  If not, why the (edit) are you even tangently arguing for the extremists?  1) The is no possible way for complete satisfaction until Israel does not exist which is 2) NOT POSSIBLE.  I'm not saying that the Palestinians got what they deserved...I'm saying, will the extremists EVER BE HAPPY?  So why bother rushing to the aid of the extremist?

I'm honestly surprised that you support breeding hate in any form.

Don't blame the Arabs?  Did you miss the part where if you don't follow Islam than you should be killed?

My final remark regarding the video is this:

The people who are 'radical islamists' are nutters and they have to be dealt with. Dealing with them using bombs and bullets CREATES MORE OF THEM. People don't become radical islamists for no reason. We must address the reasons why it is on the rise. The west supporting Israel gives the leaders the perfect excuse to galvanise their subjects against us. Meddling in the middle east and supporting dictators is another reason. WE MUST CHANGE OUR WAYS. When we have it will die away. When someones standard of living improves they are less likely to engage in stupid acts of self-sacrifice and conversion to radical islam because ALL HUMANS ARE BY NATURE SELFISH (to varying degrees). Nobody would join the IRA these days because we have it too easy. Life is too comfortable because the oppression has been taken away to a large extent (in Northern Ireland that is). Do the same in the middle east and you will get the same result. My recent trip to Turkey was very enlightening. The Turks have it good. Their standard of living is just like ours. Turkey is just like Europe or USA, and yet it is an islamic country. Women in hijabs walk hand in hand with their boyfriends down the street, kissing and cuddling, wearing trendy modern clothing. And yet when the call to prayer comes everyone gets their prayer mat out. We need to improve the lives of those in the midst of radical islam and remove the impediments to improvements in their lives so that they can become the New Turks. The Turks made their own country. We need to let them do the same. They'll sort themselves out in the end if they aren't being exploited or meddled with by western powers. We just need a few modern Ataturks!

If remnants of this cult remain then we annihilate them with brutal force.

THIS RABBLE POSE LITTLE THREAT TO THE WEST. What do you think we are? Pansies? Did we not come through WWI? WWII? We are made of sterner stuff. You guys need to stop fucking quaking in your boots. This anti-islam propaganda is reaching nazi era anti-jew proportions and it frightens me. It frightens me more than radical islam that's for sure.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-01 14:15:17)

My rants are hereby over...

CameronPoe wrote:

You guys need to stop fucking quaking in your boots. This anti-islam propaganda is reaching nazi era anti-jew proportions and it frightens me. It frightens me more than radical islam that's for sure.

QFT