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2006-10-27 14:15:16
Phantom2828
Member
+51|6800|Land of the free

IRONCHEF wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

Some of you who live in the U.S. are completely out of touch with reality. This leads me to believe that you stay couped up in your rooms all day reading various news and propaganda, and developing a skewed perception of reality based on that. I attend a University and I have a job. I do not notice any difference in my "freedom" than I did before the "War on Terror". If you do notice such a difference, please humor me. Do you now suddenly live every day in fear of being dragged out of your house and executed? That may certainly be the case if you live in Iran, but America? Not gonna happen. The anti-terror bill that allows the US to detain terror suspects only effects an extremely small portion of the population...I'm talking about a handful of people out of 300 million. While it may be unfortunate for the select few that unfairly fall victim to this, it does not effect the average American's life, no matter how wrong it may seem to you. What I'm getting at is that if you had no access to news sources and were completely oblivious to the War on Terror, certain changes in legislation, or the 9/11 attacks, you would continue to live your daily life without noticing any change. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what the government is doing is right, because it many cases it is not. What I'm saying is that it does not effect the average American's (by average I mean 99.99% of the population) daily life. Those of who you claim our freedom has been violated so extremely that you're going to move out of the country, please humor me with the specifics of what happened to you.
It's the "reality" that I can "now" be dragged out of my house and imprisoned at the whims of Bush and Rumsfeld...who have not exercised lawful execution of their respective offices (moreso bush than rummy).

I did not feel that reality before 9/11 feeling safe in my constitutional protections.  Those constitutional protections are gone.  I have a good friend who lives in Pakistan.  She and her two children were neighbors of mine here in the US and I helped her stay in touch with her fiancee in Pakistan who could not secure a visa to the US.  By giving her a laptop and a wireless network adapter, she could visit me, the pool, or my patio and get on the internet and chat with him.  She has since returned to pakistan, married him, and she has returned to the US to apply for her husband's visa (she can't do it in Islamabad because she is no longer a citizen there because of being an American citizen now).  She has done so and returned to Lahore, Pakistan where she awaits word from me that her husband's visa is available.   (sorry for the long preface..getting to the point now)..  SO since I've been making great friends with Roheel (her husband), we have exchanged gifts, emails, and phone calls..all of which are without privacy (no big deal, i have nothing to hide)...but in our exchange, we have discussed the inherent danger to Roheel's wife and children being american, speaking perfect english, and being christian.  They are literally at risk of death every minute of every day because of these things...and of course we exchanged our hate for the war, the US support of Israel (which escalated tensions in Pakistan against americans and christians even resulting in some lynchings of Roheel's christian neighbors), and our equal disdain for Bush.

now let's assume that at present, simply communicating with this Pakistani man is still legal, which I hope it is.  let's also assume that my right to criticize my president to this Pakistani man is protected, which I hope it still is.  Now lets assume that some adverse event happens and My friend and her 2 children are killed by an air strike (which is very possible since there are many unreported skirmishes in Pakistan due to obvious events).  Roheel, does what he needs to do in his grief and takes up arms to protest or even take action against Americans...  Guess what happens to me?  Guess what "could" happen because of this new reality that you and I face.  Maybe the laptop computer I gave his wife is used byhim to type out anti-american messages or even jihadist (not that he's muslim) messages...  I'm toast.  I'm gonna be rounded up with the other usual suspects, and thrown in a dank prison in Egypt somewhere where I get bamboo shutes shoved down my nailbeds...and I have no recourse or constitutional protection.

I know, I know.  If I'm pollux, I'm gonna be witty and say "Ironchef, you shouldn't worry about it if you haven't done anything wrong."  Well, things change when look at reality.  And there are many thousands of imprisoned people right now without official charges, court dates, legal representation, and without basic civil rights.  The law firm I work at represents some gitmo detainees pro bono and I'm accurate in my assessment.
Very well writen Ironchef.
I am kinda in the middle of the whole civil rights thing.
I think it HAS to be reconized that the things bush is doing ARE ILLEGAL in some cases.
I personly don't agree with all of it but things like the patriot act I like because they have prevented MANY attacks already.
Things like the suspension of habeus corpus I DO NOT agree with nor to I like the use of torture.
2006-10-27 14:23:39
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6918

Phantom2828 wrote:

Things like the suspension of habeus corpus I DO NOT agree with nor to I like the use of torture.
I agree, but I think the scope of it is being blown out of proportion. Many people are making it seem like they can no longer live in the US because their freedoms have been violated, when reality nothing has really happened to them. That said, it still violates the foundation of our constitution and people SHOULD care.
2006-10-27 14:29:05
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6763|Northern California
true.  i even got on that fear-laden bandwagon thinking i need to move my family to canada.  but like you say, it doesn't put a clear threat to me but because the potential of being violated..yes, i should and do care.  watching the income tax movie..gotta get back.. that's good stuff too.
2006-10-27 14:31:44
liquix
Member
+51|6726|Peoples Republic of Portland

IRONCHEF wrote:

Ok, so our press isn't the "freest."  But at least we can feel safe and sound in our homes, on the phone, on the internet, and not have our privacy invaded or be taken from our homes and imprisoned without charges...oh wait, we don't enjoy those freedoms anymore either.  But at least we can petition our captors for our false imprisonment...oh wait, can't do that either.  Aha!  At least we can freely assemble and peacefully protest..oh wait, that's gone too..at least when Bush isn't in town driving around.

I was expecting to be near 100...53 ain't that bad...  *puts gun to head*
< chuckles >
2006-10-27 14:32:36
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7028|United States of America

liquix wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Ok, so our press isn't the "freest."  But at least we can feel safe and sound in our homes, on the phone, on the internet, and not have our privacy invaded or be taken from our homes and imprisoned without charges...oh wait, we don't enjoy those freedoms anymore either.  But at least we can petition our captors for our false imprisonment...oh wait, can't do that either.  Aha!  At least we can freely assemble and peacefully protest..oh wait, that's gone too..at least when Bush isn't in town driving around.

I was expecting to be near 100...53 ain't that bad...  *puts gun to head*
< chuckles >
*Kneels at bed and prays for IronChef*
2006-10-27 16:01:11
Sh1fty2k5
MacSwedish
+113|6982|Sweden

PekkaA wrote:

Sh1fty2k5 wrote:

Och Finlands befolkning är kanske 3000000 älgar/renar och 2000 människor, ni är totalt sönderpropagerade om ni tror att Finland har en större och mera slagkraftig armé än Sverige. Don't buy that shit nigga
Couple of years ago you almost killed us to laughter, when swedish army hairnets were introduced in our media. Swedish "army" full of guys who looked like joey Tempest running around, head wrapped in a fisihing net. Go on, add some more makeup Svante.
I really have to say that my experience of the Finnish army aint too good. I was once i a military training with the nordic battlegroup, and the finnish were told to put suppressing fire on a house, now these guys were using old MG42, not MG3 but 42, and they kept jamming so hard and their aim was so bad that the training had to be cancelled. Then later positions were switched and the Swedes finally got to use some real weapons to destroy that house completely. Also, i've seen two finnish helicopters crash in my life, and they have like 5 in the airforce, both were old russian Hips. The engines just stopped working. Also, Finlands army is almost entirely made up of conscripts and national guard soldiers, you'll have a hard time finding special units, it's all 19-year old kids. The only good thing there is are CV90s and those are swedish.
2006-10-28 19:09:59
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|6859|sWEEDen
53rd place? Soo... right now there could be like 52 nations invading the U.S for making it more free?

Since the americans are less free then us swedes and also have nukes we better attack! take the batttle to the enemy! they have nukes! they are not free! and soo on......
2006-10-28 19:33:29
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7038|UK
I love the way loads of Americans are getting anoyed because they scored lowly. They should stop doing so for the following reasons:

1. All countries get the same questions asked at them.
2. To score that low compared to other MEDC's you must be doing something wrong.
3. All things to do with population in there will be to do with rates anyway thus making the fact that your population is larger than some others irrelivent.

So please stop moaning and accept that you arent realy as free as you thought you were.
2006-10-29 01:59:54
OpsChief
Member
+101|6948|Southern California

Vilham wrote:

I love the way loads of Americans are getting anoyed because they scored lowly. They should stop doing so for the following reasons:

1. All countries get the same questions asked at them.
2. To score that low compared to other MEDC's you must be doing something wrong.
3. All things to do with population in there will be to do with rates anyway thus making the fact that your population is larger than some others irrelivent.

So please stop moaning and accept that you arent realy as free as you thought you were.
How free did we think we were? Is that in another survey somewhere?

Americans are getting annoyed because some gullable people will probably take that survey seriously and use it to justify their arguments at some later date!

If I could see the # of people polled from what areas within US and other larger countries and well basically the whole non-scientific survey process maybe I would take it seriously. But the survey instrument is flawed, it's a reverse popularity contest taken by people who aren't comparable.....how do you compare what a Somalian reporter's answers to a New York reporter and say it applies to Oregon equally? apples and oranges. The geographical comparisons are relevant. One of our small states could be compared to another place getting country status. Stuff doesn't happen uniformly across ther USA, it varies from state to state - face the facts the survey is unscientific, flawed and therefore useless. Surveying 1000 random opinions is 1000% useless.

It's too bad because I would like to see the results from a competent authority using verfiable data.

Last edited by OpsChief (2006-10-29 01:02:15)

2006-10-29 01:55:24
Gawwad
My way or Haddaway!
+212|6957|Espoo, Finland

Sh1fty2k5 wrote:

PekkaA wrote:

Sh1fty2k5 wrote:

Och Finlands befolkning är kanske 3000000 älgar/renar och 2000 människor, ni är totalt sönderpropagerade om ni tror att Finland har en större och mera slagkraftig armé än Sverige. Don't buy that shit nigga
Couple of years ago you almost killed us to laughter, when swedish army hairnets were introduced in our media. Swedish "army" full of guys who looked like joey Tempest running around, head wrapped in a fisihing net. Go on, add some more makeup Svante.
I really have to say that my experience of the Finnish army aint too good. I was once i a military training with the nordic battlegroup, and the finnish were told to put suppressing fire on a house, now these guys were using old MG42, not MG3 but 42, and they kept jamming so hard and their aim was so bad that the training had to be cancelled. Then later positions were switched and the Swedes finally got to use some real weapons to destroy that house completely. Also, i've seen two finnish helicopters crash in my life, and they have like 5 in the airforce, both were old russian Hips. The engines just stopped working. Also, Finlands army is almost entirely made up of conscripts and national guard soldiers, you'll have a hard time finding special units, it's all 19-year old kids. The only good thing there is are CV90s and those are swedish.
Finland wasn't the richest country after WW2 and money was spent on making the people get back up. The goverment has really started to fund buying new equipment in the few past decades.
No need to throw all the money to the military when you can keep good relations with other nations and thus are not likely getting in to war.


Really, Finnish and Swedish people love each other! Don't be fooled by what we throw at each other
2006-10-29 02:01:39
dark110
Member
+37|6894|Chicagoland
i dont care what positin we have as long as i can tell you to fuck off.
2006-10-29 02:29:55
DonFck
Hibernator
+3,227|6904|Finland

dark110 wrote:

i dont care what positin we have as long as i can tell you to fuck off.
Ladies and gentlemen of the free world! We have a winner here!
I need around tree fiddy.
2006-10-29 03:00:56
metal1215
Member
+18|6917|Varsseveld, Netherlands
the netherlands  N. 1   
2006-10-29 05:01:07
mark
Member
+5|6677
I find this easy to believe because america has taken away most of its peoples right like they can put them in jail for 6 months or somrthing for no reason...
2006-10-30 02:31:21
blisteringsilence
I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Kennedy
+83|6974|Little Rock, Arkansas

mark wrote:

I find this easy to believe because america has taken away most of its peoples right like they can put them in jail for 6 months or somrthing for no reason...
I don't know where you got this. The longest the police can hold you without charging you with something is 12 hours, and even that's pushing it. If you get a lawyer, most of the time you can walk right out, unless you've been arrested. Even if they do arrest you, you have to be arraigned within a single business day, and are most likely out after that.

If you're going to make blanket, undocumented statements, please, at least make them a little believable.
2006-11-07 06:39:08
[iLL]h8+
Member
+26|6988|Florida

blisteringsilence wrote:

mark wrote:

I find this easy to believe because america has taken away most of its peoples right like they can put them in jail for 6 months or somrthing for no reason...
I don't know where you got this. The longest the police can hold you without charging you with something is 12 hours, and even that's pushing it. If you get a lawyer, most of the time you can walk right out, unless you've been arrested. Even if they do arrest you, you have to be arraigned within a single business day, and are most likely out after that.

If you're going to make blanket, undocumented statements, please, at least make them a little believable.
He is talking about the Death of Habeus Corpus!!!

In a way he is correct.  Watch this video and find out more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfOUAsBYsYg&eurl=

Some interesting stuff.
2006-11-07 07:49:52
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6791|Πάϊ

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

Some of you who live in the U.S. are completely out of touch with reality. This leads me to believe that you stay couped up in your rooms all day reading various news and propaganda, and developing a skewed perception of reality based on that. I attend a University and I have a job. I do not notice any difference in my "freedom" than I did before the "War on Terror". If you do notice such a difference, please humor me. Do you now suddenly live every day in fear of being dragged out of your house and executed? That may certainly be the case if you live in Iran, but America? Not gonna happen. The anti-terror bill that allows the US to detain terror suspects only effects an extremely small portion of the population...I'm talking about a handful of people out of 300 million. While it may be unfortunate for the select few that unfairly fall victim to this, it does not effect the average American's life, no matter how wrong it may seem to you. What I'm getting at is that if you had no access to news sources and were completely oblivious to the War on Terror, certain changes in legislation, or the 9/11 attacks, you would continue to live your daily life without noticing any change. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what the government is doing is right, because it many cases it is not. What I'm saying is that it does not effect the average American's (by average I mean 99.99% of the population) daily life. Those of who you claim our freedom has been violated so extremely that you're going to move out of the country, please humor me with the specifics of what happened to you.
You're right... for most people living in the US today, all this talk about freedom loss etc makes no sense, because like you pointed out, they notice nothing different in their everyday life. Then again, notice what you said:

"I'm talking about a handful of people out of 300 million. While it may be unfortunate for the select few that unfairly fall victim to this, it does not effect the average American's life, no matter how wrong it may seem to you."

Bear in mind that we are talking about a legislation here, namely something that affects all those living in the US. It really doesn't matter whether its a handful of people today. In some time from now, it may be more, or it may be even less people that become unfair victims. The thing is though, this false legislation will still dictate to you how to live your life.

Don't look at the numbers... One wrongfully accused person is enough for me.
But then again, you go to the Uni, you got a job, who cares about some asshole who is wrongfully accused? Its not you or anyone you know right? Why should you care? Your University didn't teach you that...
ƒ³

 

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