Discuss, always wondered since I'm not a beleiver. I'm interested in what you have to say about it, if you are.
Poll
If Extra-Terrestrials are found, does this disprove creationism?
| Yes | 38% | 38% - 36 | ||||
| No | 44% | 44% - 41 | ||||
| Unsure | 17% | 17% - 16 | ||||
| Total: 93 | ||||||
I'm not a believer either, but I don't see how aliens would have any bearing on creationism at all.
Well if extra-terrestrials exist, how come they aren't mentioned in the Bible? No other mention of different planets with life.
That would be my response as to why it is relevent.
And of course, this is all theorey because:
A: we probably will never meet an extra-terrestrial. Even if they exist, space is so enormous it would take 75 thousand years to get to the nearest star anyways.
B: we can't prove creationism either.
That would be my response as to why it is relevent.
And of course, this is all theorey because:
A: we probably will never meet an extra-terrestrial. Even if they exist, space is so enormous it would take 75 thousand years to get to the nearest star anyways.
B: we can't prove creationism either.
It wouldnt disprove creationism since the bible doesnt say there arent aliens. It would make a lot of people think though.
Creationsim is a bunch of backwards bullshit with or without aliens.
Well, alot of the people I know who are extremely religious would say Satan conjured the aliens. Heheh, good input so far mates.
Here are passages that seem could refer to aliens;JaMDuDe wrote:
It wouldnt disprove creationism since the bible doesnt say there arent aliens. It would make a lot of people think though.
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
Deuteronomy 2:11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
Deuteronomy 2:20-21 That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims; A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:
Deuteronomy 3:11-13 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? Nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man. And this land, which we possessed at that time, from Aroer, which is by the river Arnon, and half mount Gilead, and the cities thereof, gave I unto the Reubenites and to the Gadites. And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.
Deuteronomy 9:2 A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!
Joshua 12:4 And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,
Joshua 13:12 All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out.
Joshua 15:8 And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:
Joshua 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
Joshua 18:16-17 And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel, And was drawn from the north, and went forth to Enshemesh, and went forth toward Geliloth, which is over against the going up of Adummim, and descended to the stone of Bohan the son of Reuben,
2 Samual 21:20 And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.
1 Chronicles 20:6 And yet again there was war at Gath, where was a man of great stature, whose fingers and toes were four and twenty, six on each hand, and six on each foot: and he also was the son of the giant.
I'm a Theistic Evolutionist. That means I believe that God created all things in the beginning, like the Bible says....but the mechanism for creation was the process of evolution. I don't take the Creation story literally, and many Christians also understand that, as in Revelations and other books, it is written so that the readers of that day might understand it in non-scientific terms. It wasn't meant to be taken literally or scientifically.
That said, if God created humans over the course of millions/billions of years...you would have to realize that God himself is outside of space and time. So in essence, he has nothing to do with finite time...one year is as a thousand ...its all the same to Him. Being outside of time and space, who knows what else He created...maybe extra terrestrials. But I doubt it.
One thing that most Christians do...that I wish they didnt do...is that they fill in the gaps with God. In other words, if something doesnt come right out and say...God created other beings as well...then they assume that God did not and try to make the bible conform to this thinking. Its the same with evolution. Its the same with many things. God gave us science...God gave us brains. I think he wanted us to 'evolve' to a point where we would naturally figure out the secrets and mysteries of the genome, of life, and His complex creation. I doubt he wanted us to stop thinking and force ideals onto each other based on literal interpretations of His word.
edit: to comment on the "Giants" above, these were called the 'Sons of God' and they took the 'Daughters of Men'. I have researched this at great length and the Hebrew text for these terms is ambiguous, although it would seem to indicate that these were Angels and earthly women. Note in the bible that the only angels named are in the masculine form (Michael,Gabriel, Jewish Rabbis have a long tradition of names all masculine for angels).
It could be that the Nephilim (google it) are the descendents of Angels and women which seem to have taken a rather gargantuous form through this unnatural coupling. Goliath was one such giant. If it was angels (again, the bible does NOT come right out and say it, so I will not fill in these gaps by stating with certainty) then they were likely the 'fallen angels' that were cast out of heaven for plotting with Lucifer.
That said, if God created humans over the course of millions/billions of years...you would have to realize that God himself is outside of space and time. So in essence, he has nothing to do with finite time...one year is as a thousand ...its all the same to Him. Being outside of time and space, who knows what else He created...maybe extra terrestrials. But I doubt it.
One thing that most Christians do...that I wish they didnt do...is that they fill in the gaps with God. In other words, if something doesnt come right out and say...God created other beings as well...then they assume that God did not and try to make the bible conform to this thinking. Its the same with evolution. Its the same with many things. God gave us science...God gave us brains. I think he wanted us to 'evolve' to a point where we would naturally figure out the secrets and mysteries of the genome, of life, and His complex creation. I doubt he wanted us to stop thinking and force ideals onto each other based on literal interpretations of His word.
edit: to comment on the "Giants" above, these were called the 'Sons of God' and they took the 'Daughters of Men'. I have researched this at great length and the Hebrew text for these terms is ambiguous, although it would seem to indicate that these were Angels and earthly women. Note in the bible that the only angels named are in the masculine form (Michael,Gabriel, Jewish Rabbis have a long tradition of names all masculine for angels).
It could be that the Nephilim (google it) are the descendents of Angels and women which seem to have taken a rather gargantuous form through this unnatural coupling. Goliath was one such giant. If it was angels (again, the bible does NOT come right out and say it, so I will not fill in these gaps by stating with certainty) then they were likely the 'fallen angels' that were cast out of heaven for plotting with Lucifer.
Last edited by Digital Aura (2006-10-17 16:12:00)
I'm not very familiar with the ideology of creationism, but from what I know about it, I don't see how it would have any effect. Don't believe in that alien life/invasion stuff either, but I don't know of any main religious beliefs which blatantly acknowledge their supposed existence.
Last edited by DesertFox423 (2006-10-17 16:09:25)
Very. Well. Said. +1 man.Digital Aura wrote:
I'm a Theistic Evolutionist. That means I believe that God created all things in the beginning, like the Bible says....but the mechanism for creation was the process of evolution. I don't take the Creation story literally, and many Christians also understand that, as in Revelations and other books, it is written so that the readers of that day might understand it in non-scientific terms. It wasn't meant to be taken literally or scientifically.
That said, if God created humans over the course of millions/billions of years...you would have to realize that God himself is outside of space and time. So in essence, he has nothing to do with finite time...one year is as a thousand ...its all the same to Him. Being outside of time and space, who knows what else He created...maybe extra terrestrials. But I doubt it.
One thing that most Christians do...that I wish they didnt do...is that they fill in the gaps with God. In other words, if something doesnt come right out and say...God created other beings as well...then they assume that God did not and try to make the bible conform to this thinking. Its the same with evolution. Its the same with many things. God gave us science...God gave us brains. I think he wanted us to 'evolve' to a point where we would naturally figure out the secrets and mysteries of the genome, of life, and His complex creation. I doubt he wanted us to stop thinking and force ideals onto each other based on literal interpretations of His word.
The Hindus do. Check with your local Indian friend.DesertFox423 wrote:
I'm not very familiar with the ideology of creationism, but from what I know about it, I don't see how it would have any effect. Don't believe in that alien life/invasion stuff either, but I don't know of any main religious beliefs which acknowledge their supposed existence.
ATG, you forgot the best one. Go read the first chapter of Ezekiel, its pretty creepy. Heres a little of it.
5 Also from within it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man. 6 Each one had four faces, and each one had four wings. 7 Their legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the soles of calves’ feet. They sparkled like the color of burnished bronze. 8 The hands of a man were under their wings on their four sides; and each of the four had faces and wings. 9 Their wings touched one another. The creatures did not turn when they went, but each one went straight forward.
10 As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces. Their wings stretched upward; two wings of each one touched one another, and two covered their bodies. 12 And each one went straight forward; they went wherever the spirit wanted to go, and they did not turn when they went.
13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches going back and forth among the living creatures. The fire was bright, and out of the fire went lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran back and forth, in appearance like a flash of lightning.
15 Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness
5 Also from within it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man. 6 Each one had four faces, and each one had four wings. 7 Their legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the soles of calves’ feet. They sparkled like the color of burnished bronze. 8 The hands of a man were under their wings on their four sides; and each of the four had faces and wings. 9 Their wings touched one another. The creatures did not turn when they went, but each one went straight forward.
10 As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces. Their wings stretched upward; two wings of each one touched one another, and two covered their bodies. 12 And each one went straight forward; they went wherever the spirit wanted to go, and they did not turn when they went.
13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches going back and forth among the living creatures. The fire was bright, and out of the fire went lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran back and forth, in appearance like a flash of lightning.
15 Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness
He's not Indian. Originated from Bangladesh.
No. What makes us special to other E.T's?
PRiMACORD wrote:
Creationsim is a bunch of backwards bullshit with or without aliens.
The talk of Giants is strange. But since it doesnt mention another planet, they are in-fact terrestrials. It seems like if there were ET's who came to earth, there would be alot of filling in the gaps relating this to religion. To not disprove creationism, it must be deemed that God created these beings. Without any literel reference to ET life in the bible, any correlation made from the Bible to these other lifeforms would be taken as foolishness and without logic.
Here's something to chew on. It's estimated that for every grain of sand on the planet earth, there is an entire galaxy in the universe. Each galaxy containing billions of stars. This number is so massive, your brain pretty much just shuts off when attempting to think about it (heh.) With such a large number of stars, is it silly to think that life would exist nowhere else in the universe? Seems like a waste of space without it.
Here's something to chew on. It's estimated that for every grain of sand on the planet earth, there is an entire galaxy in the universe. Each galaxy containing billions of stars. This number is so massive, your brain pretty much just shuts off when attempting to think about it (heh.) With such a large number of stars, is it silly to think that life would exist nowhere else in the universe? Seems like a waste of space without it.
Good find...these 'living creatures' described here are the seraphim....much like the cherabim in Revelations and in Daniel. Can you imagine being shown these visions of creatures with your limited knowledge back then? They hadn't even THOUGHT of the idea of space invaders or aliens...even THAT was unknown. To us I imagine we might instantly think of extra terrestrial lifeforms. And you'd be right. Angels are extra terrestrial (outside of earth).JaMDuDe wrote:
ATG, you forgot the best one. Go read the first chapter of Ezekiel, its pretty creepy. Heres a little of it.
5 Also from within it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man. 6 Each one had four faces, and each one had four wings. 7 Their legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the soles of calves’ feet. They sparkled like the color of burnished bronze. 8 The hands of a man were under their wings on their four sides; and each of the four had faces and wings. 9 Their wings touched one another. The creatures did not turn when they went, but each one went straight forward.
10 As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces. Their wings stretched upward; two wings of each one touched one another, and two covered their bodies. 12 And each one went straight forward; they went wherever the spirit wanted to go, and they did not turn when they went.
13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches going back and forth among the living creatures. The fire was bright, and out of the fire went lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran back and forth, in appearance like a flash of lightning.
15 Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness
It would prove that there's extra terrestrials. It does nothing to support and tear down creationism. It shows that there's other beings. In my beliefs, God created and will yet create worlds without end. To think God is limited to creating one world is to deny his omnipotence, his purpose, and his mission to create. But that's if you believe in God which scarce few on this message board believe. So I'll stop and not contribute further for obvious reasons.
What makes us special? Well considering we are the only intelligent Terrestrial life forms (on earth) that would make us very special compared to say: a life form that isn't from earth (even if it isn't intelligent.)Archer wrote:
No. What makes us special to other E.T's?
Spearhead wrote:
PRiMACORD wrote:
Creationsim is a bunch of backwards bullshit with or without aliens.
Yep, like John when he was describing jets that bomb as dragons with fire in their nostrils or helicopters as giant flies. And it's not just biblical people trying to describe such things, be many civilizations and people throughout the ages have had difficulty describing things they haven't seen. We do it today.Digital Aura wrote:
Can you imagine being shown these visions of creatures with your limited knowledge back then? They hadn't even THOUGHT of the idea of space invaders or aliens...even THAT was unknown. To us I imagine we might instantly think of extra terrestrial lifeforms. And you'd be right. Angels are extra terrestrial (outside of earth).
They'll just fucking say that 'god' created aliens. He just didn't mention it in his last blockbuster publication.
Ironchef,
I'm not bashing you so don't worry just asking a question. According to your belief; why does the bible not mention the other worlds and experiments throughout the cosmos of God's creation? To clarify, I'm talking about straightforward references....Few of which exist in a book which has been written and re-written almost continuously since it's creation....but still.
I'm not bashing you so don't worry just asking a question. According to your belief; why does the bible not mention the other worlds and experiments throughout the cosmos of God's creation? To clarify, I'm talking about straightforward references....Few of which exist in a book which has been written and re-written almost continuously since it's creation....but still.
Actually...there is literal reference as pointed out above. The SONS OF GOD ....and the daughters of men. Why the distinction? Probably SONS of GOD are extra terrestrial (being angels that is) as opposed to humans. Note that Christ himself was refered to as a Son of Man as well as the Son of God.liquix wrote:
The talk of Giants is strange... Without any literel reference to ET life in the bible, any correlation made from the Bible to these other lifeforms would be taken as foolishness and without logic.
It is also estimated that the odds for having conditions where a planet is habitable, in a life sustaining solar system that is the proper distance from the (a) sun, with the right proportions of nitrogen, oxygen, etc to maintain cellular life and evolution of cells is astronomical. The odds actually are that there IS NO LIFE elsewhere. (Google the Drake Equation)Here's something to chew on. It's estimated that for every grain of sand on the planet earth, there is an entire galaxy in the universe. Each galaxy containing billions of stars. This number is so massive, your brain pretty much just shuts off when attempting to think about it (heh.) With such a large number of stars, is it silly to think that life would exist nowhere else in the universe? Seems like a waste of space without it.
I nominate this trooper for the MOH. Seriously - if I had any karma left to give, you'd be getting it.PRiMACORD wrote:
Creationsim is a bunch of backwards bullshit with or without aliens.