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Poll

Should the berka (islamic head covering for women) be unlawful to wear

Yes, if a nation enforces such a law44%44% - 33
No, religious expression and clothing should prevail56%56% - 42
Total: 75
2006-10-17 14:42:41
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6747|Northern California
In France, it is already outlawed in the classroom.  England and Italy are also supporting such a law which would require muslim women who wear a 'berka' to remove it under certain conditions.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= … p;refer=uk
The Italian version
In reading some of these articles, I find myself saying that it's a bunch of oppressive BS and in other articles I find myself siding with the laws.

For example, when should local laws supercede the religious rights of a person?  If I'm a Siek, and I'm wearing a knife on a necklace around my neck, should the local law be ignored to respect my religious expression?  If I'm a Jehovah's Witness, and my child is in the hospital and the only thing that will save my child's life is a blood transfusion, should local law override my religious beliefs that blood is sacred and should not be transferred?

Should a woman wearing a burka[hijab] be required by law to show a police officer her face when she's pulled over for speeding?  Should this same woman be required to remove her burka[hijab] so that others can hear her speak more clearly?

In the US, our constitution guarantees that a person's right to practice religion should not be infringed upon.  BUt when should it be suspended, if ever?

Lots of good questions on a good topic, let's see what kind of debate we can have.  I will reserve my opinion on the matter until later.

This is a Hijab.  And no, I apologize, but this poll is not about Ninjas...
https://www.myloupe.com/disp_thumb_images/255/display/118236.jpg

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-10-17 15:01:53)

2006-10-17 14:52:42
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6837|SE London

Hmmmmm. I certainly don't think burkas should be banned. The hajib (veil), maybe. I certainly think the hajib should be banned in certain situations. There has been a lot of fuss at the moment in the UK about a teaching assistant wearing the hajib at work following Jack Straw's comments, I don't think that should be allowed. A lot of what children learn is through facial expression, why should all the children she teaches be deprived in this way? It is against Sharia law for women not to wear the hajib, but it is also against Sharia law for women to teach. If you want women to be treated as equals by society, as they are not under traditional Islamic (or even Christian - witchhunts, not able to become priests etc. (better these days, but still not treated as equal)) law, progression needs to be made in other areas too.
2006-10-17 14:55:40
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6992|Salt Lake City

We already override religious freedoms.  You can't kill/sacrifice people because your religion calls for it.  I think there are certain places where religious freedoms must be overriden.  I used to work in a liquor store.  If some woman came in to buy alcohol wearing one (yes I know Muslims don't drink, this is just an example) and I wanted to see ID to prove she was 21, I would request to see her face to prove the ID belonged to her.  If she refused, the State of Utah gives me the right to refuse service; it's a good thing too as I would be the one held responsible for selling to a minor.

I think the same goes for your example of a police officer stopping them for speeding, or whatever else.
2006-10-17 14:57:54
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6747|Northern California
Well put.  And thanks for the correction.  I know what a salwar and kameez are, but i didn't know that the hajib was the actual face covering.  Thanks.

This is tough.  I really can't make my vote yet because it's not easy to decide.  I'm leaning towards supporting the law because yes, the needs to be seen in many scenarios, though the right to religious expression is also protected.  I lean towards saying yes because their rights can be retained at the expense of losing a job or a privilege (something requiring a fully viewed face).
2006-10-17 14:59:45
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6952|NJ
I agree with bertster on this one, it should not be inforced by law but if the woman is already going against her religion in such a manner as teacher or driving a car(I belive that they are not aloud to do that either) that it should be legal to see there face.  But then again our laws in America are not what they say they are, if you do the crime you do more then your fair share of the time.. I haven't voted yet because I haven't read the articals
2006-10-17 16:00:38
PRiMACORD
Member
+190|6881|Home of the Escalade Herds
This is a tough one. At home, absolutely not. In public and at work, yes.

I don't really care but i do have muslim friends who hate hijabs more then i do. They think it's stupid and backwards and just serves to divide muslims from the rest of the populace.

Logically, if they want to cover 98% of themselves, they should move back to a Muslim country. I like to see who i'm talking to here.
2006-10-17 16:27:07
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6811
Ban use of the headscarf by all fit muslim chicks. The rest can do what they like.
2006-10-17 16:43:24
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6907|USA
Don't stop there, ban the whole damn religion.
2006-10-17 16:48:26
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6811

lowing wrote:

Don't stop there, ban the whole damn religion.
2006-10-17 16:51:03
liquix
Member
+51|6710|Peoples Republic of Portland
I get my haircut by an Iranian woman who was forced to leave her country during the government overthrow about 15 years ago. She speaks of the way her life was post regime change (shitty), and for example she mentioned she would never be able to cut my hair in her country. She lost her job, her house, and her entire way of life because of religious forces controlling the newfound government. I'd rather not treat women like posessions.
2006-10-17 16:52:17
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6907|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Don't stop there, ban the whole damn religion.
LOL ok I will agree to that 1 ............+1
2006-10-17 16:52:23
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6778|...

We should all convert to gnostan.
2006-10-17 16:56:01
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6747|Northern California

liquix wrote:

I get my haircut by an Iranian woman who was forced to leave her country during the government overthrow about 15 years ago. She speaks of the way her life was post regime change (shitty), and for example she mentioned she would never be able to cut my hair in her country. She lost her job, her house, and her entire way of life because of religious forces controlling the newfound government. I'd rather not treat women like posessions.
1979 - 2006 = 27 years ago.  Or were you talking about a different government change?  Because since 1979, the sharia law has been in force.  Prior to 1979, you could cut hair.

I too have an Iranian friend.  His dad was a full colonel in the Shah's army when the ayatollahs took over.  His family had to flee or they'd be killed.  Pretty tough living in the US as refugees with nothing, and being hated for being Iranian after living in a palace like royalty.
2006-10-17 16:58:19
PRiMACORD
Member
+190|6881|Home of the Escalade Herds

CameronPoe wrote:

Ban use of the headscarf by all fit muslim chicks. The rest can do what they like.
qft
2006-10-17 17:04:06
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6783|Portland, OR USA
On the outside chance there is a serious thread in this somewhere, I'll say that in America, I would find it ludicrous to ban them.  That being said, I'm hardly in a position to cast opinion or judgement on what other nations decide to enforce as law.  I see no reason to make such a law, but that's irrelivant frankly.

Note: Readeres of the previous statement should note the nation of origin of the poster.
2006-10-17 17:04:45
liquix
Member
+51|6710|Peoples Republic of Portland

IRONCHEF wrote:

liquix wrote:

I get my haircut by an Iranian woman who was forced to leave her country during the government overthrow about 15 years ago. She speaks of the way her life was post regime change (shitty), and for example she mentioned she would never be able to cut my hair in her country. She lost her job, her house, and her entire way of life because of religious forces controlling the newfound government. I'd rather not treat women like posessions.
1979 - 2006 = 27 years ago.  Or were you talking about a different government change?  Because since 1979, the sharia law has been in force.  Prior to 1979, you could cut hair.

I too have an Iranian friend.  His dad was a full colonel in the Shah's army when the ayatollahs took over.  His family had to flee or they'd be killed.  Pretty tough living in the US as refugees with nothing, and being hated for being Iranian after living in a palace like royalty.
She has been cutting hair for 15 years, I didn't specify. Furthermore, it wasn't in one night that her life was taken away. All I'm saying is I have little support for anything that would make a woman feel like shit; unless its me and she was cheating.
2006-10-17 17:07:04
jonsimon
Member
+224|6751

IRONCHEF wrote:

For example, when should local laws supercede the religious rights of a person?  If I'm a Siek, and I'm wearing a knife on a necklace around my neck, should the local law be ignored to respect my religious expression?  If I'm a Jehovah's Witness, and my child is in the hospital and the only thing that will save my child's life is a blood transfusion, should local law override my religious beliefs that blood is sacred and should not be transferred?

Should a woman wearing a burka[hijab] be required by law to show a police officer her face when she's pulled over for speeding?  Should this same woman be required to remove her burka[hijab] so that others can hear her speak more clearly?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

Basically, freedom of expression should come first, except with the cases of another's health or law enforcement.
2006-10-17 17:09:53
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6747|Northern California

PuckMercury wrote:

On the outside chance there is a serious thread in this somewhere, I'll say that in America, I would find it ludicrous to ban them.  That being said, I'm hardly in a position to cast opinion or judgement on what other nations decide to enforce as law.  I see no reason to make such a law, but that's irrelivant frankly.

Note: Readeres of the previous statement should note the nation of origin of the poster.
Ludicrous to ban veiled faces in America? yet it's not ludicrous that someone disagreeing with Bush can be locked up and denied habeas corpus?  It's not ludicrous that law enforcement can invade your home without just cause and violate your constitutional rights?  It's not ludicrous here in the good 'ole USA that our first ammendment rights to protest be infringed upon (designating sections for protestors far, far away from supportive groups during a parade or rally)?

Veiled face bannage could easily happen here.  it could happen tomorrow if Bush and his Congress wanted it, and you or I would be powerless to do anything about it.  How do you like them apples? lol
2006-10-17 17:11:00
dubbs
Member
+105|6888|Lexington, KY
I think that there are certian situations that they should not be allowed, ie getting a drivers licenses.  This was an issue in the US not to long ago, because the women did not want to remove her head dress in order to take the photo.  Licenses are a previledge, and if you do not follow the laws you should not have one.  Also, teachers should not be allowed to wear them (at least in the US).  If Christian teachers can not pray at events like Fellowship of Christian Atheletes, or Pray at the Pole, then Islamic teachers should have to remove their head dress.
2006-10-17 17:11:58
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6783|Portland, OR USA
I didn't say those weren't ludicrous either.  An omission does not imply consent.
2006-10-17 17:16:48
EricTViking
Yes, I am Queeg
+48|6808|UK
Voted yes because it's closer to my sentiments than voting no. But even if it isn't outlawed I think we should encourage small children to point and snigger at people wearing such garb.
2006-10-17 17:26:52
jonsimon
Member
+224|6751

dubbs wrote:

I think that there are certian situations that they should not be allowed, ie getting a drivers licenses.  This was an issue in the US not to long ago, because the women did not want to remove her head dress in order to take the photo.  Licenses are a previledge, and if you do not follow the laws you should not have one.  Also, teachers should not be allowed to wear them (at least in the US).  If Christian teachers can not pray at events like Fellowship of Christian Atheletes, or Pray at the Pole, then Islamic teachers should have to remove their head dress.
Veils haven't been a problem in the US. That's a british thing. Personally, I've never seen one burka in all my time living in dearborn. Plenty of scarves and robes, but nothing covering the face.
2006-10-17 17:30:24
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6724
Why not outlaw sandals next? Let them wear it it doesn't hurt anyone. People can wear what they want unless they are really fat then we need so resrictions (no spandex).
2006-10-17 17:56:02
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6965|Wilmington, DE, US
I bet a lot of the "no" votes are also the ones who get so pissy about people trying to take "under god" out of the Pledge, or prayer in classrooms, etc.
2006-10-17 18:07:28
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6882|Sea to globally-cooled sea

Ikarti wrote:

I bet a lot of the "no" votes are also the ones who get so pissy about people trying to take "under god" out of the Pledge, or prayer in classrooms, etc.
I'm a "no" vote.

I understand your cynicism...it's just like the people who want to save the whales but protect a woman's right to abortion.

The more sincere prayer this world has, be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever...if it's sincere, this world will be better off.

That having been said, I voted no out of principle.  Prayer is important, but a yes or no vote goes beyond one religious item.  Once we let them take away the berka, what's to stop them from taking away the yamika?  Would they outlaw wearing a cross?  Would they arrest priests or nuns for wearing their religious clothes?

It's a slippery slope, a slope we must avoid.

EDIT: for clarification

Last edited by G3|Genius (2006-10-17 18:10:08)

 

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