The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6752|Los Angeles
http://acepilots.com/mt/2006/10/02/why- … c-in-2006/
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/199086.php
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/10/02/f … overnment/
http://www.dailypundit.com/2006/10/i_me … ells_t.php

commissar wrote:

Why I am voting Democratic in 2006

I have decided to vote Democratic this fall.

I am a conservative and a Republican party member. I believe in small government, free markets, strong defense, etc., but Bush’s snafu in Iraq is just too much. It overwhelms those issues which for 30 years have made me vote GOP. In addition to screwing up so far, there is zero evidence that he’s changed, or that he “gets it,” or anything. Kevin Drum has a piece today “if Bush gave this kind of speech, that might be different,” not for for Drum, but for some of us. Bush does not get it.

There is another aspect that makes this easier for me. Bush has not followed a conservative agenda (not that the Democrats would); he has increased the spending, size, and reach of government, mostly in the name of fighting terror. Historically, there has been a conservative philosophy. Today, most people & media use “conservative” as shorthand for “loyal Bush supporter.” But, as many have observed, Bush is no conservative. No need to remind me of Bush’s support for Intelligent Design, and other anti-science actions of the administration.

As a voter (twice for Bush) and as a blogger who supported this nonsense, I have a hard time at this point, saying, “Yes, this war has been horribly executed and there is no prospect for improvement, let me pull the lever for more of the same.”

Midterm elections are a referendum on the party in power; they are not just about the local races. I live in NY state, in a very blue district. No contests that I vote in are in doubt, but the sum of our votes do comprise a national referendum, and the news people will add up what happened and count the wins and losses. Who we vote for in ’06, especially for Congress, matters. As for ‘08, that’s two years from now. Who knows what will happen then? The GOP candidate will almost certainly run away from Bush so quickly and completely, so 2008 will be a different situation, most likely not a referendum on Bush.

I must hand it to Bush … I never would have thought there would be a Republican president that could ever persuade me to vote for the Democrats. When the choice is between a party that promises NOT to deliver what you want versus one that manifestly hasn’t, that is not easy.

I looked at Clinton’s eight years of “Kyoto-friendly” policies an effort to get along and give more respect to the rest of the world’s priorities and after 9/11, I said “Ha! a lot of good that did.” So the shit hit the fan (9/11). Since then the Bush administration had its chance and has only made it worse. Could “Kyoto-friendly” policies be any worse?

In deciding how to vote, there is the over-arching question, “How important is the war on terror, Iraq, and the whole security threat represented by related issues?” If one says “Yes, really important, number one, that trumps all other issues,” and one also says, “Bush fouled up. Big time,” … then that is the justification for voting Democratic in 2006. I view this November’s election mainly as a vote for, or against, Bush, more than as a vote for a Republican or a Democrat

On the other hand, one could say, ” Despite ALL of the stuff the Bush administration has fubar’d, if the Democrats have not put forth anything better, any plan or strategy that is viable, … how do they deserve my vote? Just because they exist as an alternative to the current failure? … I cannot vote for a party whose platform and ideals conflict directly with mine.” That’s a position I respect.

“But the Democrats will cut and run.”

Let’s get real for a minute. No one is going to send more troops. It is not going to happen. So Dem or GOP, we are looking at “staying the course,” or “cutting and running,” or some course in between.

Iraq is totally hopeless. Today, now, it is beyond any rational expectation of recovery. I cannot foresee anything like victory, not by any remote definition, such as “getting Iraq to slightly stable, barely functioning, almost worthwhile kind of place.” I cannot see how to get there. I can see us staying there for a long, long time. 150,000 US troops, well-armed and well-supplied, in secure bases, are not easy to dislodge and are not even easy to hit with high casualties. Our guys are very smart and very tough. The insurgency cannot “drive us out” or even inflict “unacceptable” casualties. What this means, combined with what I can see from internet debates is that … as long as we meet some threshhold, as long the troops can hang on, then the “true believers” will say “There is hope. We are winning. Look at the ELECTIONS!” If we’re waiting for a defeat in battle, some military rout of the Americans, that is not going to happen. Do we then stay indefinitely, spectators to chaos? No Democratic politician will say it, but maybe they would be the party of “cut and run.”

How long does the party of “stay the course, even although we have brought things to this violent, fractured, unpromising, unending situation,” deserve my vote? If there is any magic formula, some way out (not that I can see one), at this point I have zero confidence in Bush’s and Rumsfeld’s ability to find it. Mark Coffey seems to agree on this point.

I have gotten to the “my dog could do better” position.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7023|PNW

commissar wrote:

Today, most people & media use “conservative” as shorthand for “loyal Bush supporter.”
QFE.
GATOR591957
Member
+84|6879
Yet another convert.  You all are welcome, there's room for everyone.  No we are not always right and we do make mistakes from time to time but we try to learn from them and move on.  Thank you for seeing the light.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6697|The Land of Scott Walker
You better hope there's a lot of converts or the Dems are gonna lose . . . again.  3rd time in a row.  People don't want higher taxes, weenies in charge of our military, and pro-abortion advocates in office.  That's what the last 2 elections proved.  Good luck in '08 Dems.  You're gonna need it.
Ctwo
Member
+7|6712|New Jersey, USA
lol it's all such crap.

The democrats are GREAT at winning polls.. but the republicans are better at winning elections.
Something is fixed and biased... media?
(T)eflon(S)hadow
R.I.P. Neda
+456|7081|Grapevine, TX

Ctwo wrote:

lol it's all such crap.

The democrats are GREAT at winning polls.. but the republicans are better at winning elections.
Something is fixed and biased... media?
QFE
The Media is highly left-biased, no matter what you believe. Fact is the majority of Americans, still have more belief in the Republican platform than the Democrats'.  Middle-America still has traditional values, concerning taxes, health care, National Security, abortion rights, etc., etc.

I could really care less what some blogger says, good for him though, thats what makes America the best Country in the World. You have the freedom to make your own decision, and act on them.
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7007|United States of America
Unless someone does something stupid on the level of clinton stupidity, that's when I'll go and be a lib.
The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6752|Los Angeles

Stingray24 wrote:

You better hope there's a lot of converts or the Dems are gonna lose . . . again.  3rd time in a row.  People don't want higher taxes, weenies in charge of our military, and pro-abortion advocates in office.
That's funny - I could have sworn there was this one issue that most people are talking about these days. Abortion? No... Weenies? No... I don't think it was any of those.

USA Today/Gallup Poll. Sept. 15-17, 2006. N=1,003 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3  wrote:

"Which ONE of the following issues is MOST important to you when you think about your vote for Congress this year: economic conditions, health care, the situation in Iraq, illegal immigration, terrorism or education?"

(breakdown of likely voters)

27%    Situation in Iraq
18%    Economic conditions
19%    Terrorism
14%    Illegal immigration
10%    Health care
7%    Education
3%    Other (vol.)
1%    None (vol.)
2%    Unsure
Oh right, Iraq.

And how do people feel about Bush's War in Iraq again?

https://img380.imageshack.us/img380/2549/iraqpollkk3.png

But then there's terror. Certainly, American voters think that the Bush administration's main offensive on terror, the Iraq War, has made us safer.

Right?

https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2331/terrorys9.png
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6742|Menlo Park, CA
The Democrats are a bunch of fucking idiots. . .

Not to say the Republicans have ideas that are much better, its just they at least try!!

Democrats just bitch and moan, with basically no clear alternative as to what the future should entail.

Why would I vote for a party who's platform is simply "were not George Bush"?? I generally vote republican because most of the important issues the country faces like economics, security, taxes etc the republicans do well on.  As far as social issues the democrats are more progressive, i.e. abortion, civil liberties, environment etc.  Now with that said, I am all for some democratic policies on the enviornment mostly (except Kyoto=economic suicide) and abortion.  But we all know that roe v wade will never be overturned, and our country is already ahead of most nations as far as their environmental restrictions anyway!!!

Regardless, you can vote however you want to vote, personally both parties are filled with self centered assholes looking out for themselves.  I just would rather have someone a little more conservative minded, and willing to do whatever is necessary to protect the USA (I.E. not captitulate to the UN).  Have them not rob me in bullshit excess taxes of my hard earned dollar, and keep entreprenurial spirit alive, with out socialist restrictions.
The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6752|Los Angeles

Miller wrote:

Unless someone does something stupid on the level of clinton stupidity, that's when I'll go and be a lib.
Exactly. The Republicans would never do something to outdo the Lewinsky scandal. I mean come on - a sex scandal with a 22 year old girl? To top that, they'd have to do something REALLY insane - like... hmm... trying to think of something totally stupid here... like hit on 16 year olds. BOYS, so it's a gay thing. A month before elections. Now that would be way beyond Clinton stupidity.

Or even MORE stupid than that would be for the Republicans to know about it months before, and then put a hush on it. God, that would be INSANELY stupid. Can you imagine the level of party incompetence it would take for that to happen? They'd be global laughingstocks!
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7007|United States of America

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

You better hope there's a lot of converts or the Dems are gonna lose . . . again.  3rd time in a row.  People don't want higher taxes, weenies in charge of our military, and pro-abortion advocates in office.
That's funny - I could have sworn there was this one issue that most people are talking about these days. Abortion? No... Weenies? No... I don't think it was any of those.

USA Today/Gallup Poll. Sept. 15-17, 2006. N=1,003 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3  wrote:

"Which ONE of the following issues is MOST important to you when you think about your vote for Congress this year: economic conditions, health care, the situation in Iraq, illegal immigration, terrorism or education?"

(breakdown of likely voters)

27%    Situation in Iraq
18%    Economic conditions
19%    Terrorism
14%    Illegal immigration
10%    Health care
7%    Education
3%    Other (vol.)
1%    None (vol.)
2%    Unsure
Oh right, Iraq.

And how do people feel about Bush's War in Iraq again?

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/2549/iraqpollkk3.png

But then there's terror. Certainly, American voters think that the Bush administration's main offensive on terror, the Iraq War, has made us safer.

Right?

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2331/terrorys9.png
You dems need to quit jumping around on the war and in polictics overall.  First you are for it, now against.  First you were against illegal immigration, now you're for it.  List goes on and on.  There also happens to be the way you ask a question.  Your poll says, "Do you approve or dissaprove the way GWB is handling the situation in Iraq?".  I would vote approve, but we know some people take a question at face value.  Now, Bush isn't the one who planned the details of Iraq, generals did, he and clinton had both said saddam will use WMD again.  So, why jump around?  All you have done is brainwashed american people within the media, and did a fine job with it too.  There is no situation in iraq, it is the building of iraq.  Economic conditions are great right now, and when a democratic government in california doesn't allow more oil rigs off the coast of california, it shows that you really don't care about the economics and lower gas prices, it just shows you want a vote.  I'm goin to retire from the computer for a while, I'll be back later to continue my point.
The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6752|Los Angeles

Miller wrote:

You dems need to quit jumping around on the war and in polictics overall.  First you are for it, now against.
Really - thanks for the advice!

But the way things seem to be going for the Republicans, I think you can understand why we might not pay you much attention.

As for your claim that we were "for it now against" - that's just not true. I have been against it from the start, as have tens of millions of others. Many of them Democrats.

I think if you want to talk about flip-flopping on Iraq, you might want to look at what Republicans were saying two years ago and what they are saying now.

I mean, for god's sake, you want to talk about a 180, what about Senate Majority Leader (and Republican) Bill Frist saying a couple days ago that we should compromise with the Taliban? That we should bring Taliban leaders into the Afghan government?

Miller wrote:

First you were against illegal immigration, now you're for it.
Again: you're clearly not talking about me or anyone else on BF2S, so you can drop the finger-pointing "you" schtick. If you ARE talking about anyone on BF2S, please show us proof of this supposed flip-flopping.

Miller wrote:

List goes on and on.  There also happens to be the way you ask a question.  Your poll says, "Do you approve or dissaprove the way GWB is handling the situation in Iraq?".  I would vote approve, but we know some people take a question at face value.  Now, Bush isn't the one who planned the details of Iraq, generals did, he and clinton had both said saddam will use WMD again.
News for you bro. Bush is the commander-in-chief. He's in charge of the military. He's also in charge of calling the shots on all the non-military stuff, which is arguably far more important.

At the end of the day, this is Bush's war. He sold it to the American people, and they bought it. It's a mess right now, so it's his mess.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6697|The Land of Scott Walker
Your main problem, Shipbuilder is you count on polls too much.  I don't care what your polls say.  You'll cherrypick whatever one fits your agenda.  They might've polled 1,000 New York Democrats in your polls for all we know.  And CNN?  Are you kidding?  What counts is that the Dems lost the last 2 for the reasons I stated.  We don't want anti-military people in charge of the military, don't want abortion promoters, we don't want higher taxes.  Period.  You lose.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2006-10-03 16:28:45)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6926|Canberra, AUS
I rarely get involved in this internal-affairs-of-the-US debate, but here I have to make a point.

"We don't want anti-military people in charge of the military"

What makes you think they'll be so terrible? What's your problem with taking a non-military stance? What makes you think they're anti-military, or, (as I think) is this some primal fear-of-the-others conclusion?

"We don't want abortion promoters"

I'm very interested to hear your source, because all indications I have heard are to the contrary. Of course, you could've done a survey of 1000 Texan Republicans for all I know, that doesn't represent the majority of the country though.

"We don't want higher taxes"

I'm VERY interested here. You mean "No more taxes" in general (as Bush Sr promised, and later broke his promise), or "Tax cuts for all"? So far, Bush has done a good job at the first half of that phrase, not sure about the second. Beats me how a tax cut to the top 2% helps the bottom 20% who need it most.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman

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