Please provide references to where you procured those stats. Then I might consider responding (although to be honest I don't know why people care so much about these silly gun topics).AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
Ok fellas, we made a lot of process on the Concealed Weapons thread, so answer this one and only question, no offshoots on religion, or politics, or namecalling (I've had just about enough of that). Just read the question and respond.
The FBI has reported that in the previous year, 2005, that Rape is down 24%, Aggravated assault is down 33%, Murder is down 44%, and Robbery is down 50%.
Also the FBI has previously reported that Violent crime has been way down from 1991-2004. Gun ownership and the number of firearms in the U.S. is now at an ALL TIME HIGH.
My one and only question for those of you who say guns create crime or such other subject:
How can crime be this far down and still going down when firearm ownership and the amount of firearms are on the rise???
If you don't answer this question, I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU. (Smart ass remarks will only make you look stupid)
The stats are in fact correct, look around The Bureau of Justice statistics web site, Rape, Homicide, robbery and assault are all dropping since the 70s. Firearms offences that have remained at the same levels as in the 70s. They have dropped recently, but that's due to a massive increase in the 90s, they have now returned to their normal levels. Also drugs related crime has constantly gone up throughout the last 30 years.aardfrith wrote:
Isn't the US prison population also at an ALL TIME HIGH? Could this also be related?
At a rough guess, the violent crimes carry the longest sentences and so take people out of society to prevent them from doing more crimes. However, the crims that owned guns before they went into prison still own them, just can't use them.
By the way, have you got a linkable source for these crime statistics or are you just making them up?
I did look this up, criminals steal 300,000 legally owned guns a year in the US. I couldn't find any evidence that the UK even records statistics on gun theft it's that low. Criminals can get VASTLY more guns if the Citizens can legally own them.MonroStrongrod wrote:
Another issue I have with the relationship to crime guns have is the old argument that criminals will get the guns no matter what, its true, if you don't believe me look it up on the Internet.
Switzerland.MonroStrongrod wrote:
All those foreign media sources (cough *BBC* cough) show numbers of accident, suicide, injury and even crime caused by Satan's hand cannon, BAH! I call bullshit, If someone cared to do a world wide study of firearms they would see that any country with guns has these issues, and America would have the lowest percent per owner of any gun related crime or accidents in the world.
The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.
There is roughtly 7 times the firearms homicide rate in the US than Switzerland. (they still have something like 5 times the number of firerms homicides than the UK)
Yeah but look at Switzerland - 800 years of peace and quiet and all they have contributed to the world is a cuckoo clock and pen knife
I had already looked at that site, and there is nothing there to support the statistical claims made in the original post. If you can point me to a source for the claim that the F.B.I. have released figures showing a"24% drop in Rape..Murder down 44%" etc, then I will apologise, but I think you will struggle to find something which contradicts the F.B.I.s own website..:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:
The stats are in fact correct, look around The Bureau of Justice statistics web site
I repeat, the original post is at best misleading, certainly inaccurate, and as such a falacious basis for rational discussion.
Because the economy is on the mend after the crash of 2000?
Better economy = more jobs.
More jobs = less crime.
Its a very well known phenomenon.
Simply saying crime is down and gun ownership is up, ergo there is a correlation isn't statisitcally robust.
There's also a positive statistical correlation between the drop in crime and the rise in global ocean temperatures, but that doesn't mean that there is a genuine causal relationship.
An improvement in the economy would also mean more wealth available to legally purchase firearms. Just a thought.
\\'
Better economy = more jobs.
More jobs = less crime.
Its a very well known phenomenon.
Simply saying crime is down and gun ownership is up, ergo there is a correlation isn't statisitcally robust.
There's also a positive statistical correlation between the drop in crime and the rise in global ocean temperatures, but that doesn't mean that there is a genuine causal relationship.
An improvement in the economy would also mean more wealth available to legally purchase firearms. Just a thought.
\\'
Sorry, I didn't look or care if the stats were exactly correct. The point I was trying to back up was the fact that all these crimes were in fact dropping in number and therefore what was the cause of this?broncobullfrog wrote:
I had already looked at that site, and there is nothing there to support the statistical claims made in the original post. If you can point me to a source for the claim that the F.B.I. have released figures showing a"24% drop in Rape..Murder down 44%" etc, then I will apologise, but I think you will struggle to find something which contradicts the F.B.I.s own website..:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:
The stats are in fact correct, look around The Bureau of Justice statistics web site
I repeat, the original post is at best misleading, certainly inaccurate, and as such a falacious basis for rational discussion.
NOT TRUE, restrictions are becoming MORE lax......and crime is still going down, hold on I'll explain more here in a bit..:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:
Remember that gun ownership is increasing and so is the restrictions on weapons that can be bought.
I did not to mean that guns DECREASE crime directly (although they help a lot, let's not get into that right now, thousands of crimes prevented, lives saved, etc etc,)GotMex? wrote:
That would be the data that would correlate to this situation. However most people claim that "Guns increase crime". So the relevant information to that claim is that crime is down, gun ownership is up.Spark wrote:
That's a good question.
However, you don't need a gun to do crime (what about random burglary?). Now give me the GUN crime figures - and the figures of people accidentally shot by guns.
However, guys listen, your getting off topic, this THREAD was only started because people in the last thread stated that "GUNS CAUSE CRIME" I don't give a damn on this thread whether or not if you care GUNS DECREASE CRIME........I'm simply asking
IF GUNS CAUSE CRIME, than how can crime be low with gun ownership so high, restrictions lower, and the number of guns increasing.
I don't care about how many guns are stolen (for this thread, I do care though ) But this DOES NOT PERTAIN TO MY QUESTION
Sweden DOES NOT PERTAIN TO MY QUESTION,
Are you guys blind, or did I need to clarify more, respond to the question, nothing more, nothing less, we already had enough of off topic shootouts and discussion and research in the other thread. Please Please, focus like a laser beam people.
I agree with you, but this doesn't pertain to my question,Windrider_Melb wrote:
Because the economy is on the mend after the crash of 2000?
Better economy = more jobs.
More jobs = less crime.
Its a very well known phenomenon.
Simply saying crime is down and gun ownership is up, ergo there is a correlation isn't statisitcally robust.
There's also a positive statistical correlation between the drop in crime and the rise in global ocean temperatures, but that doesn't mean that there is a genuine causal relationship.
An improvement in the economy would also mean more wealth available to legally purchase firearms. Just a thought.
\\'
my question is only for people who think that GUNS CAUSE CRIME.......which there seemed to be a lot of last thread. I'm not saying that just because crime down and gun ownership up means there is a correlation there, when did I say that.......I'm just asking if CRIME is down and GUNS are up, how can GUNS cause the CRIME???? Not saying that GUNS decrease crime, learn how to read folks.
And a damn good knife at that.. Look at what Macquiver can do with it..IG-Calibre wrote:
Yeah but look at Switzerland - 800 years of peace and quiet and all they have contributed to the world is a cuckoo clock and pen knife
Oh my jesus, I said premliminary report, if you don't fucking believe me, than just wait for the numbers to be officially released, sorry if I look at prelims from the FBI, omfgbroncobullfrog wrote:
I had already looked at that site, and there is nothing there to support the statistical claims made in the original post. If you can point me to a source for the claim that the F.B.I. have released figures showing a"24% drop in Rape..Murder down 44%" etc, then I will apologise, but I think you will struggle to find something which contradicts the F.B.I.s own website..:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:
The stats are in fact correct, look around The Bureau of Justice statistics web site
I repeat, the original post is at best misleading, certainly inaccurate, and as such a falacious basis for rational discussion.
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel06/ … 061206.htm
But listen guys my original point was that from 1991 those crimes went down that much percent, while gun ownership was increasing........ ONCE AGAIN FOLKS look at my question very carefully.
The prelim report shows that there is 2.5% rise in crime (don't even try to say this contradicts my point, you don't know what you're talking about, the pop rose and we had one of the largest relase of prison inmates in years) however my original percentages were in relation to 1991-2004.
So basically, anyone who doesn't agree with your view is a smart ass and you won't respond? I'm not bothered either way on the actual topic of Concealed Weapons, but people who post things like that just peeve me off.AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
If you don't answer this question, I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU. (Smart ass remarks will only make you look stupid)
No, they're not, and ........so what?sergeriver wrote:
So, the statistics were wrong? And besides the topic poster stole my fucking sig and changed it.
Also I looked at my post and it is misleading, I made a typo omg, those percentages are not for 2005 but for 1991-2004, which was my original point anyway........
Once again, someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, what is wrong with expecting people to ANSWER my question and not make smart ass remarks such as insulting me, name calling, etc, like in the last thread, calm down and don't try to assume shit you have no idea about. When did I say ANYTHING about disagreeing with me? I didn't, you can disagree with me, go ahead, try and quote anywhere where I said if you disagree with me and i'll be angry or something, I'll shut up.^KoB^Buckles wrote:
So basically, anyone who doesn't agree with your view is a smart ass and you won't respond? I'm not bothered either way on the actual topic of Concealed Weapons, but people who post things like that just peeve me off.AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
If you don't answer this question, I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU. (Smart ass remarks will only make you look stupid)
Last edited by AlbertWesker[RE] (2006-09-05 10:26:14)
The point I am trying to back up is the fact that all these crimes are in fact dropping in number and therefore GUNS can't be the cause of this, because gun ownership is at an all time high..:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:
The point I was trying to back up was the fact that all these crimes were in fact dropping in number and therefore what was the cause of this?
yay!AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
Once again, someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, what is wrong with expecting people to ANSWER my question and not make smart ass remarks such as insulting me, name calling, etc, like in the last thread, calm down and don't try to assume shit you have no idea about. When did I say ANYTHING about disagreeing with me? I didn't, you can disagree with me, go ahead, try and quote anywhere where I said if you disagree with me and i'll be angry or something, I'll shut up.^KoB^Buckles wrote:
So basically, anyone who doesn't agree with your view is a smart ass and you won't respond? I'm not bothered either way on the actual topic of Concealed Weapons, but people who post things like that just peeve me off.AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
If you don't answer this question, I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU. (Smart ass remarks will only make you look stupid)
i didn't insult you or nowt dude, i just voiced my interpretation of your statement. And by responding to me, you've acknowledged that i made a sensible and meaningful statement
AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
If you don't answer this question, I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU.
Whatever you want to believe man, I know you didn't insult, didn't say you did, did I, maybe I should PM you next time, would you be happy than...l I know you voiced your intrepretation, and I am DISAGREEING with you. Once again WHERE DID I SAY THAT IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, that is bad??? Try answering that question.^KoB^Buckles wrote:
yay!AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
Once again, someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, what is wrong with expecting people to ANSWER my question and not make smart ass remarks such as insulting me, name calling, etc, like in the last thread, calm down and don't try to assume shit you have no idea about. When did I say ANYTHING about disagreeing with me? I didn't, you can disagree with me, go ahead, try and quote anywhere where I said if you disagree with me and i'll be angry or something, I'll shut up.^KoB^Buckles wrote:
So basically, anyone who doesn't agree with your view is a smart ass and you won't respond? I'm not bothered either way on the actual topic of Concealed Weapons, but people who post things like that just peeve me off.
i didn't insult you or nowt dude, i just voiced my interpretation of your statement. And by responding to me, you've acknowledged that i made a sensible and meaningful statementAlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
If you don't answer this question, I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU.
Yeah, they can, but nothing to do with Concealed weapons permit.AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
The point I am trying to back up is the fact that all these crimes are in fact dropping in number and therefore GUNS can't be the cause of this, because gun ownership is at an all time high..:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:
The point I was trying to back up was the fact that all these crimes were in fact dropping in number and therefore what was the cause of this?
People can carry guns, which deter criminals, fair point, but do you really think any criminal gets his guns legally? with permit or not?
course not, so legal guns could be seen to be responsible for the decrease in violent crime, but the more legal gunas you have, the more will slip through the cracks, so although violent crime involving guns will go down, it's still has a higher incidence rate per million than a country without legal guns
EDIT:
I think you're confusing yourself here dude.AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
Whatever you want to believe man, I know you didn't insult, didn't say you did, did I, maybe I should PM you next time, would you be happy than...l I know you voiced your intrepretation, and I am DISAGREEING with you. Once again WHERE DID I SAY THAT IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, that is bad??? Try answering that question.^KoB^Buckles wrote:
yay!AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
Once again, someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, what is wrong with expecting people to ANSWER my question and not make smart ass remarks such as insulting me, name calling, etc, like in the last thread, calm down and don't try to assume shit you have no idea about. When did I say ANYTHING about disagreeing with me? I didn't, you can disagree with me, go ahead, try and quote anywhere where I said if you disagree with me and i'll be angry or something, I'll shut up.
i didn't insult you or nowt dude, i just voiced my interpretation of your statement. And by responding to me, you've acknowledged that i made a sensible and meaningful statementAlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
If you don't answer this question, I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU.
Last edited by ^KoB^Buckles (2006-09-05 10:34:32)
Awfully authoritarian, Albert. A commanding qualifier in the title... insisting that people had better do what you say or you shall punish them by ignoring them... the "trap" you set at the end in an attempt to discourage anyone from using acerbic wit on "your" thread to entertain others... Why do you feel such a strong compulsion to control everything?AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
Respond To This One And Only Question, STAY ON TOPIC!!!
answer this one and only question, no offshoots on religion, or politics, or namecalling (I've had just about enough of that). Just read the question and respond.
If you don't answer this question, I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU. (Smart ass remarks will only make you look stupid)
First of all, according to the FBI, crime statistics are NOT "still going down".AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
The FBI has reported that in the previous year, 2005, that Rape is down 24%, Aggravated assault is down 33%, Murder is down 44%, and Robbery is down 50%.
Also the FBI has previously reported that Violent crime has been way down from 1991-2004. Gun ownership and the number of firearms in the U.S. is now at an ALL TIME HIGH.
How can crime be this far down and still going down when firearm ownership and the amount of firearms are on the rise???
Violent crime is UP 2.5% YoY.
Murder is UP 4.8% YoY.
Aggravated assault is UP 1.9% YoY.
Robbery is UP 4.5% YoY.
Secondly, you neglected to provide a source. You also neglected to provide a relative year. In 2005, rape was down 24%? Compared to when? 1776? 1885? 1964? You say in later posts what you meant, but a gentleman would thank someone for pointing out his obvious error, and an honest man would edit his original post to reflect it.
This is basic stuff here.
But I'll entertain the question anyway, because I know that crime in America has been dropping significantly over the past 13 or so years.
The thing is, there are a million forces acting on violent crime rates, rape, et cetera. You can't just pick one - gun ownership per capita - and try to claim that there's a direct correlation without backing your implication up with some data. That's like crediting or blaming the Bush administration for the day-to-day movements of the stock markets.
You'll need to show a very convincing correlation for us to believe that there is a link between gun ownership and crime rates. I seriously doubt that gun ownership skyrocketed over the past 15 years. I've tried to google gun ownership per capita statistics but I can't seem to find anything, perhaps someone else will have some more luck.
But the question remains: what has caused the huge drop in crime?
Neocons are not going to like what is increasingly becoming an accepted explanation.
Legal abortion reduces crime.
John Donahue (Yale econ prof) and Steven Levitt (U Chicago econ prof) first released the findings of their research five years ago in their paper "The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime" which you can download and read in its entirety here. From the abstract:
Levitt devoted a chapter to the findings in his bestseller "Freakonomics" as well.'Donahue and Levitt wrote:
'We offer evidence that legalized abortion has contributed significantly to recent crime reductions. Crime began to fall roughly 18 years after abortion legalization. The 5 states that allowed abortion in 1970 experienced declines earlier than the rest of the nation, which legalized in 1973 with Roe v. Wade. States with high abortion rates in the 1970s and 1980s experienced greater crime reductions in the 1990s. In high abortion states, only arrests of those born after abortion legalization fall relative to low abortion states. Legalized abortion appears to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime.
i'm going to say this before i say anything else i own 3 firearms (all rifles) i am not anti-gun in any way i don't support bill c-68
useing pistols for self defence is a good idea i don't but i never lock my car doors either. the dumbthing is when someone buys a colt commando and says its for home protection that is just dumb you miss and your more likely to hurt your neibours property or them for that matter
but as far as conceiled guns go EVERYONE should be forced to take a full gun safety and use course (well anyone who wants to get another one or ammo) that way all the people who are anti-gun can't say that criminals have to much ease getting firearms or ammo.
useing pistols for self defence is a good idea i don't but i never lock my car doors either. the dumbthing is when someone buys a colt commando and says its for home protection that is just dumb you miss and your more likely to hurt your neibours property or them for that matter
but as far as conceiled guns go EVERYONE should be forced to take a full gun safety and use course (well anyone who wants to get another one or ammo) that way all the people who are anti-gun can't say that criminals have to much ease getting firearms or ammo.
AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
I know you voiced your intrepretation, and I am DISAGREEING with you. Once again WHERE DID I SAY THAT IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, that is bad??? Try answering that question.
O RLY?^KoB^Buckles wrote:
I think you're confusing yourself here dude.
And where did I say that, I think its you who is confused and can't read what you yourself wrote.^KoB^Buckles wrote:
So basically, anyone who doesn't agree with your view is a smart ass and you won't respond?
I never said anyone that disagreed with my was a smart ass.
Not once.
registered guns != crime
The original statement is eluding to that somehow there is a preventaive in effect.
If shooting a robber is not a crime, are there stats that show the number of gun shootings has risen?
The original statement is eluding to that somehow there is a preventaive in effect.
If shooting a robber is not a crime, are there stats that show the number of gun shootings has risen?
bang ur dead........no respawn........doh.
1st of all man, WTF, I don't want to control everyone, I just asked that people stay on topic and not talk about anything other than what I had posted, what the hell is wrong with wanting to stayon topic and not be fucking iinsulted like I was in the last post, just what the fuck is wrong with that????The_Shipbuilder wrote:
1) First of all, according to the FBI, crime statistics are NOT "still going down".
Violent crime is UP 2.5% YoY.
Murder is UP 4.8% YoY.
Aggravated assault is UP 1.9% YoY.
Robbery is UP 4.5% YoY.
2) Secondly, you neglected to provide a source. You also neglected to provide a relative year. In 2005, rape was down 24%? Compared to when? 1776? 1885? 1964? You say in later posts what you meant, but a gentleman would thank someone for pointing out his obvious error, and an honest man would edit his original post to reflect it.
But I'll entertain the question anyway, because I know that crime in America has been dropping significantly over the past 13 or so years.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.gif
3) The thing is, there are a million forces acting on violent crime rates, rape, et cetera. You can't just pick one - gun ownership per capita - and try to claim that there's a direct correlation without backing your implication up with some data. That's like crediting or blaming the Bush administration for the day-to-day movements of the stock markets.
4) You'll need to show a very convincing correlation for us to believe that there is a link between gun ownership and crime rates. I seriously doubt that gun ownership skyrocketed over the past 15 years. I've tried to google gun ownership per capita statistics but I can't seem to find anything, perhaps someone else will have some more luck.
5) But the question remains: what has caused the huge drop in crime?
1) Thats only for one year.....crime has been going down since the 90's
2)ARGHHHH, can you read, I already said i made a typo for that, i meant to say 1991-2004, not 2005.
3) I know, and I didn't just pick one, can you seriously read my question,
FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME PEOPLE, I DO NOT MEAN TO IMPLY THAT GUNS DECREASE CRIME
My ONE AND ONLY Question is HOW THE FUCK can guns cause crime if there are so many of them and have been ever increasing since crime has been going down. I am not the one making the correlations, people in the last thread stated
I am merely just agreeing with most of you saying you can't correlate crime drop to any one thing, including GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!GUNS CAUSE CRIME
4) read above, i'm not trying to show a correlation, you people seriously need to learn how to read what i'm writing.
5) I don't care, no one can really tell why crime drops, other than significant changes and minor drops can be attributed to certain things, the overall crime drop has been a mystery to everyone.
So just to fucking clarify: In case you missed my last post
I AM NOT correlating gun ownership to a DROP IN CRIME
I am merely stating it is IMPOSSIBLE to attribute rises in crime to guns or that it is impossible to say "Guns cause crime" in the sense of the overrall effect
Of course guns cause crimes on the micro level, duh, and guns save lives, quite a few more than they kill. BUT NOW WE'RE GETTING OFF TOPIC.
Also, thank you to the people that ACTUALLY answered the question, because there is only one arrivable conclusion that you cannot correlate anything to a drop in crime, and conversely you cannot correlate any one thing to a rise in crime, namely guns.
I AM NOT correlating gun ownership to a DROP IN CRIME
I am merely stating it is IMPOSSIBLE to attribute rises in crime to guns or that it is impossible to say "Guns cause crime" in the sense of the overrall effect
Of course guns cause crimes on the micro level, duh, and guns save lives, quite a few more than they kill. BUT NOW WE'RE GETTING OFF TOPIC.
Also, thank you to the people that ACTUALLY answered the question, because there is only one arrivable conclusion that you cannot correlate anything to a drop in crime, and conversely you cannot correlate any one thing to a rise in crime, namely guns.