BF2S Forums Pandemic thread

‘let’s get back to work’ rhetoric works fine for white-collar professions, who are mostly fine working from home anyway without any threat to their income. of course they’re always speaking on behalf of the public service workers and staff at bars/restaurants/public amenities etc. very noble of them.

you notice it’s not the black and latino americans who are dying in droves, or the bus drivers and transport unions, who are keen to get the show back on the road.

and only last week jay was accusing me of being selfish and speaking only for my own benefit.

I don't think "most small business owners" are living an upper class lifestyle. That sounds a bit delusional, and maybe resentful. A nail salon owner probably doesn't have a six homes, a private golf course, and a garage full of jetskis. Neither would the owner of a small construction firm. Running a small business can be an extraordinarily expensive ordeal, and by the time someone's done paying for stuff, then MAYBE they'll only have to call one or two people they owe money to and beg off payment deadlines.

Could even patch their roof if they play their cards right.

If I am resentful of small business owners you can probably thank the Republicans for their advocacy on their behalf. I probably wouldn't even think about small businesses if I didn't have to hear about multiple rounds of stimulus in their support.

I wasn't victimized by a small business As far as I remember.

Speaking of bailouts, did you apply for one?

Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2020-05-10 21:56:38)

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Jay, if the unthinkable happened and you & your peers became unemployed - how would you cope?

If the crisis hits the american middle class it will be an unmitigated disaster.

No shit. Which is why I've been saying it's most important to reopen the economy.

I reckon your social safety net needs some work if it's so far below a level of subsistence for the vast majority of people living in NY. As if everyone has savings & job security. As soon as someone becomes unemployed in a field where there is no scarcity, or during an economic crisis, you might as well sell your appartment. The fuck man.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-11 02:30:33)

Small businesses don't benefit from govt contracts the way large businesses do, or have the opportunity to offshore their labour or profits.

They are the bedrock of the real economy and do need a bit of govt support now and then.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

If I am resentful of small business owners you can probably thank the Republicans for their advocacy on their behalf. I probably wouldn't even think about small businesses if I didn't have to hear about multiple rounds of stimulus in their support.

Democrats have always been the ones championing small business over big business. Do you know who made the "big businesses are better because they can be controlled" argument? The nazis.

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

No shit. Which is why I've been saying it's most important to reopen the economy.

I reckon your social safety net needs some work if it's so far below a level of subsistence for the vast majority of people living in NY. As if everyone has savings & job security. As soon as someone becomes unemployed in a field where there is no scarcity, or during an economic crisis, you might as well sell your appartment. The fuck man.

Unemployment insurance payments are set below minimum wage to discourage people from staying unemployed. If you can make more money at a minimum wage job, take that job instead of collecting unemployment. Normally, although I assume it's waived right now, you have to demonstrate that you are actively looking for work to keep collecting. It's not meant to be a long term thing.

If you can afford to own an apartment, you should be able to build up savings. I'm not really sure why you are against having personal savings built up.

Your argument fundamentally assumes a healthy economy & healthy sectors with low unemployment. Natural disasters, war, a pandemic - a society is supposed to prepare for these situations that will disrupt the labour market. It's fatal short terminism if that is not accounted for.

Nevermind the fact that some age groups, 20 year olds and those 45-50+, have a MUCH harder time finding jobs. The young people can still 'get by' if they get fucked but someone in their 50s who gets laid off will on average be unemployed for longer periods of time. While their cost of living is also high if they have kids and whatnot.

It's perfectly possible to make it income dependent and capped to a maximum. In germany it's 60-70% of your previous average income capped at 7k euros/month (pre taxes etc) for up to 24 months (dependent on age & time in labour force). Same or similar rules apply everywhere else in Europe. 500$ a week is stupidly low especially considering NY is the most expensive city in the world by far, save for maybe Geneva or Monaco.

Of course I'm not 'against savings' - but there's a million reasons why you might not have savings or not have a lot of savings on hand. A single income in NY of 50k is not going to net you a big bank account. Or you could become unemployed long term because of health issues. Does your health insurance cover a hit to income as well?

You yourself can last for maybe 6 months while your household is worth a multitude of 50k.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-11 04:18:36)

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

I reckon your social safety net needs some work if it's so far below a level of subsistence for the vast majority of people living in NY. As if everyone has savings & job security. As soon as someone becomes unemployed in a field where there is no scarcity, or during an economic crisis, you might as well sell your appartment. The fuck man.

Unemployment insurance payments are set below minimum wage to discourage people from staying unemployed. If you can make more money at a minimum wage job, take that job instead of collecting unemployment. Normally, although I assume it's waived right now, you have to demonstrate that you are actively looking for work to keep collecting. It's not meant to be a long term thing.

If you can afford to own an apartment, you should be able to build up savings. I'm not really sure why you are against having personal savings built up.

Your argument fundamentally assumes a healthy economy & healthy sectors with low unemployment. Natural disasters, war, a pandemic - a society is supposed to prepare for these situations that will disrupt the labour market. It's fatal short terminism if that is not accounted for.

Nevermind the fact that some age groups, 20 year olds and those 45-50+, have a MUCH harder time finding jobs. The young people can still 'get by' if they get fucked but someone in their 50s who gets laid off will on average be unemployed for longer periods of time. While their cost of living is also high if they have kids and whatnot.

It's perfectly possible to make it income dependent and capped to a maximum. In germany it's 60-70% of your previous average income capped at 7k euros/month (pre taxes etc) for up to 24 months (dependent on age & time in labour force). Same or similar rules apply everywhere else in Europe. 500$ a week is stupidly low especially considering NY is the most expensive city in the world by far, save for maybe Geneva or Monaco.

Of course I'm not 'against savings' - but there's a million reasons why you might not have savings or not have a lot of savings on hand. A single income in NY of 50k is not going to net you a big bank account. Or you could become unemployed long term because of health issues. Does your health insurance cover a hit to income as well?

You yourself can last for maybe 6 months while your household is worth a multitude of 50k.

Yeah? What prevents people from taking a 2 year vacation at taxpayer expense?

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

Democrats have always been the ones championing small business over big business. Do you know who made the "big businesses are better because they can be controlled" argument? The nazis.

You said the Nazis were leftist though?!

they were

So is being pro-big business a leftist thing?

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

You said the Nazis were leftist though?!

they were

So is being pro-big business a leftist thing?

It can be, depending on the motivations. Your goal, like the Nazis, was to bring big business under political control. Sure, they left the owners in charge and allowed them to keep some profit, but it was always with the understanding that the party was really running things. When you heavily regulate an industry, you reach a point where any business has become effectively nationalized. The Nazis had roughly the same motivation as the Soviets in that they wanted to control everything. The difference is the Nazis maybe recognized their limitations and deferred to the business experts to run things more efficiently than purely political control could. The Soviets killed tens of millions of their own people indirectly by killing off all their industry experts.

The Democrats did the same thing with Obamacare. They left the insurance companies in place to be the face of the healthcare industry and receive all the grievances. In exchange for having their plans and coverage and profits dictated to them by HHS, the insurance companies got to do what they went into the business for in the first place, they get to keep taking all of our premiums and investing them in short term securities, and keeping the profit on that. We are effectively living in a single payer environment right now. Also, nothing improved. Thanks Obama.

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

Yeah? What prevents people from taking a 2 year vacation at taxpayer expense?

Labour laws require you to check in with the benefits office and prove that you're sending out X amount of applications each month. Should be at least 15 or 20. The longer it takes the more the benefits office will be on your case, ultimately coaching etc.

There's also a logic to the amount received; there's few people who comfortably live on 60-70% of their gross income.

And you don't think the system is gamed? Can live quite well in Thailand on 60-70% of your salary.

It's not easy to game the system. I know someone who did, but I also know someone who tried and got royally fucked.

One thing is you have to check in with the office first by telephone but also physically every once in a while. It's going to be a problem if they try to call you and the number dials internationally.

If you game it, of course all the money you received must be paid back in full, + a fine, + interest, + possibly jail time. It's a good way to end up totally bankrupt.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-11 04:50:54)