uziq
Member
+492|3422
history does produce many evaluative systems and interpretive frameworks - that’s sort of what history and historiography is?

or were you hoping it would produce a monolithic value system that you could then pit yourself against, heroic individual-thinker that you are?

you seem to have a continual confusion between the ethos and ‘point’ of subjects, and the individuals that study them. universities do not ‘produce’ automatons.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
Of course not, however its interesting that someone can study multiple systems and frameworks, or do three degrees in Law and come out of it without a value system or any concern for the law. Why would someone go through that?

It would be like someone spending four years training to be a neurosurgeon then treating his patients with a ball-pein hammer.
You'd wonder why they went in in the first place and how someone with that inclination could get through the assessments.

If you're going to argue its not the job of a college to do anything and its all only for academic interest anyway then what is the point?
The repositories of ethics and morals don't care if their students have neither when they're handed their parchment?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
people can do engineering degrees and come out without any concerns and standards too? the fucking IRONY of you always mocking jay’s attitude towards ‘meddling government’. what are laws and regulations for? building codes? safety ISOs? i guess every engineer is a perfect moral specimen with an innate sense of right.

you talk about highly educated people doing wrong. yes, well done, the world isn’t as black and white as you’d like to have it. not really sure what your argument is here? so because a few bad apples or incorrigibles or psychopaths go through life seeking power and money above all, history is a dud? let’s close the books? i mean what are you saying here? never mind all the political leaders or people in positions of public service who have been guided towards good principles and probity by such study? hmmm make u think

i guess the engineers who came up with the private jet were moral and conscientious. i guess all those engineers who design products with built-in obsolescence are outstanding fellows, adding to landfill. but wait - is the issue in all these cases of greed and waste ... capitalism ... or their university education?!? or maybe it’s their evil bosses and taskmasters with sinister management degrees. it’s funny how the noble engineering master race becomes powerless and without responsibility when convenient, isn’t it?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
We expect engineers etc to do things by the book and are surprised enough to hold investigations and re-write the book in more detail when they don't.

In other spheres no-one goes beyond "well he was a bad apple, its all a big mystery, time to move on".

I would say its the lack of diligence and accountability which attracts egotists and narcissists to these spheres in the first place.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
because the forms of accountability are far more nebulous. are you really comparing an engineer keeping to a building code with ‘business leaders’ in positions of authority? what a terrible comparison.

person trained for and doing a specific and limited role, dealing with concrete solutions to physical problems.

a person doing a job in finance that is not specifically related to his education, working in an industry with arcane practices and cut throat profit seeking principles.

yeah great comparison! wow. and to think that stalin studied the bible for a few years in a seminary! make u think
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
No-one builds in obsolescence, pretty well every product is state of the art when its produced.
Companies do compete with each other and update their own products to keep sales rolling along.
People like their widgets high performance and cheap as possible and that means a short life.
You get the odd reprehensible conduct - like Apple nerfing their own products through system updates - thats unlikely an engineering decision, apart from that its mostly the march of progress which renders things obsolete.

Unfortunately most engineering progress is wasted as the proles are too dumb for their own good.
Improved efficiency of jet engines drives increased fuel use as people travel more, for example. Thats not the fault of engineers who have done what society thought it wanted.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
i just think of all those dead children and gassed people in syria and remember assad’s impeccable education as an ophthalmologist. it’s just such a shame !!!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

because the forms of accountability are far more nebulous.
Why shouldn't they be exactly the same?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

No-one builds in obsolescence, pretty well every product is state of the art when its produced.
Companies do compete with each other and update their own products to keep sales rolling along.
People like their widgets high performance and cheap as possible and that means a short life.
You get the odd reprehensible conduct - like Apple nerfing their own products through system updates - thats unlikely an engineering decision, apart from that its mostly the march of progress which renders things obsolete.

Unfortunately most engineering progress is wasted as the proles are too dumb for their own good.
Improved efficiency of jet engines drives increased fuel use as people travel more, for example. Thats not the fault of engineers who have done what society thought it wanted.
devices absolutely have planned in obsolescence and it has been a thing since at least the early monopoly era of capitalism. are you really that dense?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

everything is state of the art when it’s designed? are you fucking retarded? there’s a whole universe of sub-standard shoddy products put out, budget options, knock off goods, fakes and counterfeits, etc. entire cities in china are dedicated to manufacturing them. who designed all of those products?

i love how you complain about the vagueness of ‘just a bad apple’ but then forgive predatory or unscrupulous engineering decisions with a meaningless platitude like ‘the march of progress’. BRILLIANT!

you are a funny chap

Last edited by uziq (2019-11-21 01:12:26)

uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

because the forms of accountability are far more nebulous.
Why shouldn't they be exactly the same?
because what you are asking for is an ISO for human behaviour and conduct, which is a little different from building something to a specification, dilbert.

ironically what you’re asking for is a Bible. surely you can see that you’re being a little obtuse here.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
Weren't cartels outlawed about a century ago?
Quick, check how much you paid standard oil for the kerosene to light your lantern!

These are typically commercial decisions, not engineering decisions.
This does seem to confuse you.

Yes, people like cheap and are not prepared to pay for quality and long life. Hence Pioneer exited TV manufacture (tempting fate but my sisters' plasma is still going 16 years on).
If you don't like the quality of modern products blame yourself and your fellow consumer.

Companies producing fakes is wholly different from planned obsolescence, they're trading on the quality of the products they're knocking off - pretty well the opposite of what you meant.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-11-21 01:20:26)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

because the forms of accountability are far more nebulous.
Why shouldn't they be exactly the same?
because what you are asking for is an ISO for human behaviour and conduct, which is a little different from building something to a specification, dilbert.

ironically what you’re asking for is a Bible. surely you can see that you’re being a little obtuse here.
I thought you were the one arguing that humanities depts held the codes of ethics for us all to follow.

Obviously not.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
convenient that you can blame capitalism or commercialism for shady engineering and bad products. but then when a banker commits fraud, it’s his background in european history that’s at fault.

bongggggg
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:


Why shouldn't they be exactly the same?
because what you are asking for is an ISO for human behaviour and conduct, which is a little different from building something to a specification, dilbert.

ironically what you’re asking for is a Bible. surely you can see that you’re being a little obtuse here.
I thought you were the one arguing that humanities depts held the codes of ethics for us all to follow.

Obviously not.
once again, i said scientific knowledge requires an ethical framework. you went down this inane route of discussing individual human behaviour in all walks of life. i was talking about the endeavour of scientific research. i never claimed that any sort of education is going to ‘program a human’.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

convenient that you can blame capitalism or commercialism for shady engineering and bad products. but then when a banker commits fraud, it’s his background in european history that’s at fault.

bongggggg
You're blaming engineers for decisions taken by the commercial people, you don't know how the real world works.

Yes, if someone studies ethics or law and then seems to have learned nothing its fair to question what the value was.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

once again, i said scientific knowledge requires an ethical framework. you went down this inane route of discussing individual human behaviour in all walks of life. i was talking about the endeavour of scientific research. i never claimed that any sort of education is going to ‘program a human’.
Why would passive 'knowledge' require an ethical framework?
Its action which requires an ethical framework, thats whats lacking in these examples - where the people had all the knowledge and knowledge of ethics they could possibly need.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Weren't cartels outlawed about a century ago?
Quick, check how much you paid standard oil for the kerosene to light your lantern!

These are typically commercial decisions, not engineering decisions.
This does seem to confuse you.

Yes, people like cheap and are not prepared to pay for quality and long life. Hence Pioneer exited TV manufacture (tempting fate but my sisters' plasma is still going 16 years on).
If you don't like the quality of modern products blame yourself and your fellow consumer.

Companies producing fakes is wholly different from planned obsolescence, they're trading on the quality of the products they're knocking off - pretty well the opposite of what you meant.
Products are all designed to last x number of uses/cycles. I think that's what he means by planned obsolescence. You wanna pay $1,000,000 for a car? I'll make it so the car lasts 50 years without a speck of rust. You wanna pay $10,000? The hub bearings are gonna go at 50k miles. Money pays for useful life in the engineering world.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

In theory. But you could pay $35k, then consider yourself lucky when a recall is issued for a problematic part so you don't have to pay for a replacement. Premium pricing doesn't mean that garbage has been well engineered.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
It doesn't. You're right. Most of the time it does though unless you run into a situation where the MBA's have won and formerly solid brands are gutted of value and masquerade garbage as solid products. Unfortunately this seems to be happening more often. Still some good stuff out there, but rarer.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Finray
Hup! Dos, Tres, Cuatro
+2,629|5759|Catherine Black
happy birthday miggle
https://i.imgur.com/qwWEP9F.png
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
I accidentally paid $7 for a bus ride today because I didn't have exact change. Buses don't give you change? I haven't been on a bus in at least 5 years. I have a car and use Uber. The one time I used a bus and I end up having this experience. How do I even get off of this bus I am on?

The bus driver is Nigerian by the way. Not that that matters but it didn't make the loss of money any easier.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

In theory. But you could pay $35k, then consider yourself lucky when a recall is issued for a problematic part so you don't have to pay for a replacement. Premium pricing doesn't mean that garbage has been well engineered.
An old car is almost as useful as a new car, apart from the lack of airbags and crash survivability you can still drive it around in traffic no problem with the same level of risk you had when you bought it new.

What do consumers want, to pay $5k for a phone that lasts ten years or $1k each for five phones which each last two years?
An iphone 1 would be unusable now, networks and data content have changed radically in that time.

Consumers want as cheap as possible and a usable life which matches the useful life.
There's really no point in radically over-engineering most consumer products.

Yes there are shitty products out there, as Jay said, blame the MBAs who gut brands and products for short-term profit and put in shitty capacitors or wheel bearings.
Equally companies run by engineers rarely make money, there's no simple answer.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6655|United States of America
I suspect there also exist engineers who are proponents of planned obsolescence, as it is to their own monetary benefit. It's disingenuous to put all of that on the bean counting suits.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
Maybe you're right, thats not my experience.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I accidentally paid $7 for a bus ride today because I didn't have exact change. Buses don't give you change? I haven't been on a bus in at least 5 years. I have a car and use Uber. The one time I used a bus and I end up having this experience. How do I even get off of this bus I am on?

The bus driver is Nigerian by the way. Not that that matters but it didn't make the loss of money any easier.
I've seen exact change joked about in things like movies and comic strips. It seems like someone who's never ridden a bus should be prepared for this.

Also, "not that it matters but?" Why even bring it up like it was an extra twist of the knife or something?

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2024 Jeff Minard