Seems I missed some gems in the last few pages,
Personally I'd prefer to approach the issue from a socioeconomic viewpoint because I don't believe it will get us anywhere to hammer away on people's identity as the cause for our problems. Anywhere in the world it's true that as living standards and opportunities increase neighbourhoods become safer and people are happier. Proper social engagement and investment would help alleviate at least some issues. Though it should be underlined that prevailing cultural attitudes can complicate integration. Acceptance is a two way street and some migrant groups find it exceedingly difficult to live with western values and norms on for example social interaction or sexuality. They end up retreating among their own and reinforcing a type of social control and cultural conservatism that will inevitably disadvantage their offspring as well, repeating a cycle that will take generations to break. See for example the issues we have with legal/illegal somali immigrant communities, their shocking unemployment rate and the introduction of practices such as female genital mutilation.
I don't have the answers, and I've worked with refugees so I know that many of these people certainly have a right to be here, nonetheless their behaviour can cause concern. I have no argument when I see the Turkish community out in full force waving flags and shouting slogans when Erdogan wins an election or once again 'slams' European leaders. It's an example of the immigrants or citizens-born-to-immigrants in our communities openly proclaiming their support for vile intolerance that is often aggressively opposed to Europe and the West. It makes many reconsider their views on multiculturalism and migration and doesn't help the process. I optimistically hope that these problems are temporal and that by the third, fourth and fifth generation any remaining nationalist ties will be gone, but it certainly makes you think about how we should prevent these influences in the future, or if that is at all possible.
Ironically Dilbert will read this and see it as a justification for his own intolerance. Anyhow, if the above is to be considered unreconstructed redneck beliefs then I suppose Europe should be considered one big redneck continent. Also, I'd like to be enlightened to how my views are of the uncivilised sort.
Well, uh, true I guess. I grew up in a rural working class area near the border, one half of the family generations of millworkers and farmers, the other half involved in our colonial history and having minor aristocratic roots. Funnily enough the 'gentrified' half seemed more racist to me (among other issues). Spent a lot of winters/summers in rural Switzerland, another even more racist place. You should consider visiting the Alps if you're of the opinion that the Belgians/Dutch are as bad as it gets. Accurate guess though.uziq wrote:
larssen is from some working-class area in a place like belgium or the netherlands, i guess, two of the most racist places i have ever been to.
This is exactly the attitude I was speaking of when I stated that the educated, well-off and insulated progressives prefer to blithely ignore social issues that have arisen due to economic migration. I wasn't talking about new migration in the 2000s, but the migration that happened in the '60s and '70s to fill low-wage jobs in western Europe and how this phenomenon has given rise to specific poor urban neighbourhoods. These are now populated by second and third generation descendants who are on average from lower wage households, who have less opportunity, who are often less educated, who by and large find themselves in an identity crisis of sorts and who are more prone to engage in and fall victim to criminal behaviour or influence tactics of less than savoury regimes (see European born Turks who are overwhelmingly pro-Erdogan). These same areas are now also places where new migrants often settle. As for the social issues, these are possibly among the worst in Belgium, where the white working class has also chosen to self-isolate by moving out of areas where migrants moved in. There are some neighbourhoods that have developed their own cultural identities and in which you're more likely to hear Turkish or Arabic than French or Dutch.uziq wrote:
i'm not surprised he has some unreconstructed red-neck beliefs.
Personally I'd prefer to approach the issue from a socioeconomic viewpoint because I don't believe it will get us anywhere to hammer away on people's identity as the cause for our problems. Anywhere in the world it's true that as living standards and opportunities increase neighbourhoods become safer and people are happier. Proper social engagement and investment would help alleviate at least some issues. Though it should be underlined that prevailing cultural attitudes can complicate integration. Acceptance is a two way street and some migrant groups find it exceedingly difficult to live with western values and norms on for example social interaction or sexuality. They end up retreating among their own and reinforcing a type of social control and cultural conservatism that will inevitably disadvantage their offspring as well, repeating a cycle that will take generations to break. See for example the issues we have with legal/illegal somali immigrant communities, their shocking unemployment rate and the introduction of practices such as female genital mutilation.
I don't have the answers, and I've worked with refugees so I know that many of these people certainly have a right to be here, nonetheless their behaviour can cause concern. I have no argument when I see the Turkish community out in full force waving flags and shouting slogans when Erdogan wins an election or once again 'slams' European leaders. It's an example of the immigrants or citizens-born-to-immigrants in our communities openly proclaiming their support for vile intolerance that is often aggressively opposed to Europe and the West. It makes many reconsider their views on multiculturalism and migration and doesn't help the process. I optimistically hope that these problems are temporal and that by the third, fourth and fifth generation any remaining nationalist ties will be gone, but it certainly makes you think about how we should prevent these influences in the future, or if that is at all possible.
Ironically Dilbert will read this and see it as a justification for his own intolerance. Anyhow, if the above is to be considered unreconstructed redneck beliefs then I suppose Europe should be considered one big redneck continent. Also, I'd like to be enlightened to how my views are of the uncivilised sort.
Last edited by Larssen (2020-02-16 13:05:09)
