Exactly, I'd assumed your pouting over Brexit was the former.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
i'm fine with brexit as a proposition and i've never pouted over the result. like anyone with an iota of intelligence, the decision to come out produces very mixed feelings. i'm not at all for a no-deal brexit or some future non-agreement as envisioned by the little englander faragists, i think that would be a tragic outcome. but if the majority of the country want to come out, in principle i'm okay with entering into a new relationship with europe; but a relationship there must be. we can't have guard towers in ireland and border police in the channel again.
i thought your constant use of the word 'pouting' was a bit strange tbh. not many of my posts here suggest petulance. it's the most important political story in britain in a very long time.
i thought your constant use of the word 'pouting' was a bit strange tbh. not many of my posts here suggest petulance. it's the most important political story in britain in a very long time.
Last edited by uziq (2019-09-23 05:13:25)
Honestly I don't see a bright future for the UK outside the EU. Any global political clout it can still hold on to (because of its colonial legacy & ww2) will simply fade this century. In time the UK will lose its UNSC seat & the removal of the greatest proponent of transatlantic cooperation from the EU will see many UK interests disregarded on a wide range of topics. Its position as a financial centre is also in doubt (vs places like Frankfurt) and the death of industry wasn't related to the EU anyway, brexit won't/can't save that. None of this will happen overnight, but it's more or less inevitable in the long term. Its cultural clout & educational institutes can remain relevant for longer, but how long, really?
I would leave for the continent. In the last 3 years we've had a huge spike in citizenship applications from UK nationals who live here. Let the little englanders sink on their ship.
I would leave for the continent. In the last 3 years we've had a huge spike in citizenship applications from UK nationals who live here. Let the little englanders sink on their ship.
Last edited by Larssen (2019-09-23 05:53:35)
Its a colossal disaster without an upside, Cameron should have squashed and ignored the Brexiteers, he's most at fault IMO, secondly Europe for giving him nothing when he asked.
Everything since has been wholly moronic.
Everything since has been wholly moronic.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
with all due respect, europe is hardly the land of milk and honey, and the global manufacturing/economic slowdown is going to affect you guys, too, despite all of your protectionist measures or how many southern peasant states you burden with rapacious debt. germany is heading for a recession and france is shuffling the last few cards in its neoliberal, pro-market deck. it's a matter of time.
there is a certain sort of leftist thinking that states there is more opportunity to make wide-ranging economic change when not part of a trading bloc such as the EU. it is, after all, a centrist-neoliberal project and that comes with all sorts of assumptions about macroeconomics and how citizens, nations, and most importantly, corporations interact. the outbreak of populism across europe is a fairly predictable and obvious reaction to decades of market-based hegemony, and people are sick and tired of sacrificing their entire livelihoods to bail out banks, prop up corruption, and help the 'too big to fail' common market with its monetarist project.
there is no doubt that the story of britain in the 20th century, like most european powers, is a story of managed post-imperial decline. there's a certain way of thinking now in which many britons would happily be a separate, second-tier country that embarks on its own social democratic project. the other side, of course, is the free-marketeers who want us to nuzzle up to the US and become an offshore tax haven for a turbo-accelerated version of what we've just had - less of a climbdown and more of an unshackling of some supposed lion.
the biggest economic challenges facing the future are automation and the gradual termination of work for vast swathes of the population. the EU as it stands now doesn't have a vision for that. it's still committed to the borrow-and-spend model that relies on people being overworked serfs. verhofstadt last week, when vouching for the european project, spoke about in terms of 'more empire!', ganging up as a bloc to keep our international weight against BRIC nations, etc. that isn't very convincing. we can't all be happy capitalists working in services jobs trading in phantasmal high-finance to the minority of the world that still produce and manufacture stuff, turning and trading non-productivity into fictitious wealth.
i am pro-european. i think the world is only getting smaller, and being outward-looking is the only constructive way to embrace that future. i am broadly interested in european culture and consider myself as much a part of that cultural heritage as i do part of a specifically british identity. but with that said, there are ways to interact with this 'european-ness' and continental commonality than through the institutions of the EU, which favour big banks and, lately, austerity over everything else. i can sympathise with people who want out; it's when they want self-destructive and ultimately fruitless exits that i have a problem. i am not into reactionary politics or the fantasies of national peace, unity and 'return to great times' as promised by the right wing.
the EU does need an image and ideology change, regardless of what comes of brexit.
there is a certain sort of leftist thinking that states there is more opportunity to make wide-ranging economic change when not part of a trading bloc such as the EU. it is, after all, a centrist-neoliberal project and that comes with all sorts of assumptions about macroeconomics and how citizens, nations, and most importantly, corporations interact. the outbreak of populism across europe is a fairly predictable and obvious reaction to decades of market-based hegemony, and people are sick and tired of sacrificing their entire livelihoods to bail out banks, prop up corruption, and help the 'too big to fail' common market with its monetarist project.
there is no doubt that the story of britain in the 20th century, like most european powers, is a story of managed post-imperial decline. there's a certain way of thinking now in which many britons would happily be a separate, second-tier country that embarks on its own social democratic project. the other side, of course, is the free-marketeers who want us to nuzzle up to the US and become an offshore tax haven for a turbo-accelerated version of what we've just had - less of a climbdown and more of an unshackling of some supposed lion.
the biggest economic challenges facing the future are automation and the gradual termination of work for vast swathes of the population. the EU as it stands now doesn't have a vision for that. it's still committed to the borrow-and-spend model that relies on people being overworked serfs. verhofstadt last week, when vouching for the european project, spoke about in terms of 'more empire!', ganging up as a bloc to keep our international weight against BRIC nations, etc. that isn't very convincing. we can't all be happy capitalists working in services jobs trading in phantasmal high-finance to the minority of the world that still produce and manufacture stuff, turning and trading non-productivity into fictitious wealth.
i am pro-european. i think the world is only getting smaller, and being outward-looking is the only constructive way to embrace that future. i am broadly interested in european culture and consider myself as much a part of that cultural heritage as i do part of a specifically british identity. but with that said, there are ways to interact with this 'european-ness' and continental commonality than through the institutions of the EU, which favour big banks and, lately, austerity over everything else. i can sympathise with people who want out; it's when they want self-destructive and ultimately fruitless exits that i have a problem. i am not into reactionary politics or the fantasies of national peace, unity and 'return to great times' as promised by the right wing.
the EU does need an image and ideology change, regardless of what comes of brexit.
Last edited by uziq (2019-09-23 06:56:35)
I look at this issue mostly as one of the small and regional nation-states trying to preserve themselves in a world that is increasingly difficult for them to manage or influence. One of the more clear lessons I learnt in Brussels is that the state itself often acts in its own interest without regard for its people. Many times I've seen the 28 pathetically fight to cling to whatever they deem to be within the remits of their 'national sovereignty', much of the existing cooperation only borne out of reluctance. In some ways it's inevitable considering how national bureaucracies behave and select their representatives, always underlining that the national interest should be of paramount importance in diplomatic engagements. But what is that 'national interest'? It seems to often be defined through an argument for the preservation of either state power or uncompetitive national industries. Long term benefits for the entire continent and its inhabitants don't seem to figure all that much into the equation and few bureaucrats/politicians have the insight or testicular fortitude to challenge national protectionism etc. (for many, personal career ambitions ultimately supersede common good).
It's a pessimistic image, but the EU also works. Each of the remaining 27 realises (to varying degrees) that there's a need for cooperation because the individual nation states simply do not have the means to go it alone. Especially in a world where the means of production have moved to countries where labour costs are much lower. And where we are wholly dependent on the natural resources of other countries. More than once the EU as a block was able to convince other players (such as China) in maintaining production numbers (in critical pharmaceutical products for example) or adhering to rules and regulations where single countries most definitely would have failed. To not even speak on the geo-political reality, our world increasingly moving to one ruled by superpowers and international organisations (EU, NATO, AU, UN etc). In that world, the EU is infinitely more capable than the member states. Not only does the Union have enormous means at its disposal if it wants to influence international politics, due to the fact that it's much less dependent on the whims of national elections it can also create truly long term strategic visions and execute these methodically. Last but not least, the existence of the institution allows for the breakdown of nationalist barriers. I wish anyone in the EU could spend some time in Brussels because however flawed and imperfect, it also truly shows the potential of what's being built there and that we aren't that different after all.
Yes, some see many more opportunities to make change outside of the EU and there's undoubtedly truth to that. Not only is the EU enormous, it's also the worst of organisations to enact swift or wide ranging reform precisely because there's 28 little emperors each holding a veto on the most important decisions. Varoufakis often made the point that there's perfectly good ways of stabilising the Greek economy outside the Union, and that the EU could use some drastic reform. The politics of nation states didn't seem to agree much with his (often pertinent) arguments though and never even engaged them. While that's all quite regrettable, it also needs to be noted that being part of a block like the EU has many advantages to it. Most of all the ability to influence and even dictate the norms, rules and desired behaviours in both the global and regional economic playing fields. It provides stability as well, so far by preventing collapses in some countries (however imperfectly) and importantly by making sure regional economic & political output doesn't turn into some sort of free for all.
The UK leaving the EU is, to me, in every conceivable way a step backwards. It has thrown itself into a position of competition with the EU and it will ironically be forced to accept an even more subservient role despite the Brexiteer's dream of a 'new UK going its own way'. I do see the UK trying to be some sort of tax haven in the future and I do foresee a collision on these sorts of subjects with the EU, in which the UK will invariably lose. In a world that's only becoming smaller it was the nostalgic nationalists that threw your chance of shaping that movement to the wayside to preserve their weirdly idealised fantasy image of the UK & whatever they think a 'British person' is.
It's a pessimistic image, but the EU also works. Each of the remaining 27 realises (to varying degrees) that there's a need for cooperation because the individual nation states simply do not have the means to go it alone. Especially in a world where the means of production have moved to countries where labour costs are much lower. And where we are wholly dependent on the natural resources of other countries. More than once the EU as a block was able to convince other players (such as China) in maintaining production numbers (in critical pharmaceutical products for example) or adhering to rules and regulations where single countries most definitely would have failed. To not even speak on the geo-political reality, our world increasingly moving to one ruled by superpowers and international organisations (EU, NATO, AU, UN etc). In that world, the EU is infinitely more capable than the member states. Not only does the Union have enormous means at its disposal if it wants to influence international politics, due to the fact that it's much less dependent on the whims of national elections it can also create truly long term strategic visions and execute these methodically. Last but not least, the existence of the institution allows for the breakdown of nationalist barriers. I wish anyone in the EU could spend some time in Brussels because however flawed and imperfect, it also truly shows the potential of what's being built there and that we aren't that different after all.
Yes, some see many more opportunities to make change outside of the EU and there's undoubtedly truth to that. Not only is the EU enormous, it's also the worst of organisations to enact swift or wide ranging reform precisely because there's 28 little emperors each holding a veto on the most important decisions. Varoufakis often made the point that there's perfectly good ways of stabilising the Greek economy outside the Union, and that the EU could use some drastic reform. The politics of nation states didn't seem to agree much with his (often pertinent) arguments though and never even engaged them. While that's all quite regrettable, it also needs to be noted that being part of a block like the EU has many advantages to it. Most of all the ability to influence and even dictate the norms, rules and desired behaviours in both the global and regional economic playing fields. It provides stability as well, so far by preventing collapses in some countries (however imperfectly) and importantly by making sure regional economic & political output doesn't turn into some sort of free for all.
The UK leaving the EU is, to me, in every conceivable way a step backwards. It has thrown itself into a position of competition with the EU and it will ironically be forced to accept an even more subservient role despite the Brexiteer's dream of a 'new UK going its own way'. I do see the UK trying to be some sort of tax haven in the future and I do foresee a collision on these sorts of subjects with the EU, in which the UK will invariably lose. In a world that's only becoming smaller it was the nostalgic nationalists that threw your chance of shaping that movement to the wayside to preserve their weirdly idealised fantasy image of the UK & whatever they think a 'British person' is.
Last edited by Larssen (2019-09-23 08:14:45)
#essays
So much world weary pessimism. Chaos is a path to greatness... or ruin.
Being ultra-conservative and trying to hold on to what you already possess is a slow death. It's the anti-growth path predicated on fear. This is what you've all done by embracing socialistic governments in the first place. They sold you things like a 'social safety net' but what you really got was the slow inexorable decline.
There's no fire, no entrepreneurship, no risk taking, because it's frowned upon. You're all so obsessed with equality and risk mitigation that you stifle all creativity.
The EU will die. Today or tomorrow or a century from now it will dissolve into irrelevance. Brexit is the chance to roll the dice and embrace the chaos... and maybe just maybe you'll come out ahead, but only if you stop putting the pansy bureaucrats in charge. The world views the UK as a country in which it requires permission and forms signed in triplicate to pass gas. Change that and you might win.
So much world weary pessimism. Chaos is a path to greatness... or ruin.
Being ultra-conservative and trying to hold on to what you already possess is a slow death. It's the anti-growth path predicated on fear. This is what you've all done by embracing socialistic governments in the first place. They sold you things like a 'social safety net' but what you really got was the slow inexorable decline.
There's no fire, no entrepreneurship, no risk taking, because it's frowned upon. You're all so obsessed with equality and risk mitigation that you stifle all creativity.
The EU will die. Today or tomorrow or a century from now it will dissolve into irrelevance. Brexit is the chance to roll the dice and embrace the chaos... and maybe just maybe you'll come out ahead, but only if you stop putting the pansy bureaucrats in charge. The world views the UK as a country in which it requires permission and forms signed in triplicate to pass gas. Change that and you might win.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
the EU will fail because there's no chaos, no competition, no risk taking.
WhY dOeSnT tHe EU iNnOvAtE!!??
Jay has many insights into the world, what with his time in his 20s in the Army and....living in NY?
You're like a bootlicking libertarian version of a tarot card reader. What does it mean when we are on the cusp between XOM and TSLA?
WhY dOeSnT tHe EU iNnOvAtE!!??
Jay has many insights into the world, what with his time in his 20s in the Army and....living in NY?
You're like a bootlicking libertarian version of a tarot card reader. What does it mean when we are on the cusp between XOM and TSLA?
You're obsessed with me. I dig it. No butt stuff though.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
the EU will fail because there's no chaos, no competition, no risk taking.
WhY dOeSnT tHe EU iNnOvAtE!!??
Jay has many insights into the world, what with his time in his 20s in the Army and....living in NY?
You're like a bootlicking libertarian version of a tarot card reader. What does it mean when we are on the cusp between XOM and TSLA?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
jay that was the least insightful post in this thread in really quite a while. congratulations for your ability to regurgitate some totally irrelevant opinion you got out of a book somewhere. have you actually ever been to europe? we are afraid to innovate, stymied by socialist governments? what? yes, having universal healthcare, good amounts of annual leave from work, and state-owned transport networks ... it has really buried our desire to take risks! taking risks like getting ill and dying of a curable, but expensive disease.
honestly i hope you send your kids to good schools.
honestly i hope you send your kids to good schools.
Why is it Europeans are so against Britons having their own identity? Does it give them a painful reminder that without Britain and its forthright nationalism they'd still all be slaves to the Third Reich?Larssen wrote:
The UK leaving the EU is, to me, in every conceivable way a step backwards. It has thrown itself into a position of competition with the EU and it will ironically be forced to accept an even more subservient role despite the Brexiteer's dream of a 'new UK going its own way'. I do see the UK trying to be some sort of tax haven in the future and I do foresee a collision on these sorts of subjects with the EU, in which the UK will invariably lose. In a world that's only becoming smaller it was the nostalgic nationalists that threw your chance of shaping that movement to the wayside to preserve their weirdly idealised fantasy image of the UK & whatever they think a 'British person' is.
The common market made sense as a trading and negotiating bloc to rival America, China, Russia etc.
It was the endless agenda to change Britain's identity and homogenise the continent in an image created by Germany which fucked people off and led to Brexit.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Lol OK, America is one of the most conservative places in the world, people still think a gun created in 1911, a motorbike created in the 1920s and pushrod V8s can't be surpassed.Jay wrote:
There's no fire, no entrepreneurship, no risk taking, because it's frowned upon. You're all so obsessed with equality and risk mitigation that you stifle all creativity.
The EU will die. Today or tomorrow or a century from now it will dissolve into irrelevance. Brexit is the chance to roll the dice and embrace the chaos... and maybe just maybe you'll come out ahead, but only if you stop putting the pansy bureaucrats in charge. The world views the UK as a country in which it requires permission and forms signed in triplicate to pass gas. Change that and you might win.
Have you even been to England?
You guys need to carry ID to buy beer until you're 35.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +635|3711
The decline of European economies has more to do with the rise of third world economies than it has to do with bureaucrats slowing things down. There are countries with middle classes bigger than the entire population of the United Kingdom. The Europeans can't forcibly shift resources from the third world anymore. The developing world can make most of their products they need for everyday use and are getting better at more complex manufacturing. The Germans found a niche in manufacturing complex machinery and the French in luxury products though. Those are highly sought after in the U.S., China, and elsewhere.
The decline of European economic primacy doesn't mean the European can't live happy and healthy lives anyway. As Uzi said, their social safety nets and educations systems are the the envy of the world and people from the third world use their new money to get access to them. The stability of the Europeans is also why developing countries like to use the Euro as a reserve currency and like to invest in European assets. Focusing on niche manufacturing, finance, education, and overall political and economic stability is probably the winning strategy. Dicing up the European Union wouldn't help any of those things.
The decline of European economic primacy doesn't mean the European can't live happy and healthy lives anyway. As Uzi said, their social safety nets and educations systems are the the envy of the world and people from the third world use their new money to get access to them. The stability of the Europeans is also why developing countries like to use the Euro as a reserve currency and like to invest in European assets. Focusing on niche manufacturing, finance, education, and overall political and economic stability is probably the winning strategy. Dicing up the European Union wouldn't help any of those things.
I would argue that social safety nets and the EU's (in general) attitude towards healthcare and subsidized higher education sets a lower threshold for "innovation" than the US and it's constant desire to reward the people who have built their fortune on the backs of the public.
Our supposedly superior innovation is overwhelmingly performed and experienced in a public setting, either through joint private-public partnerships between academic institutions and large industry titans or purely through academic research funded by government or NGOs.
There is nothing uniquely intrinsic to the US regarding innovation. It's frankly such an abstract concept that it makes you (Jay) look stupid for even bringing it up.
Our supposedly superior innovation is overwhelmingly performed and experienced in a public setting, either through joint private-public partnerships between academic institutions and large industry titans or purely through academic research funded by government or NGOs.
There is nothing uniquely intrinsic to the US regarding innovation. It's frankly such an abstract concept that it makes you (Jay) look stupid for even bringing it up.
Are we socially conservative? It depends on how you define it. Europe is for the most part, hence the populist backlash sparked by unfettered immigration. Our people are more religious, true, but yours are much more rigid when it comes to social class and obeying social norms. Try jaywalking in Germany and see how many dirty looks you receive.Dilbert_X wrote:
Lol OK, America is one of the most conservative places in the world, people still think a gun created in 1911, a motorbike created in the 1920s and pushrod V8s can't be surpassed.Jay wrote:
There's no fire, no entrepreneurship, no risk taking, because it's frowned upon. You're all so obsessed with equality and risk mitigation that you stifle all creativity.
The EU will die. Today or tomorrow or a century from now it will dissolve into irrelevance. Brexit is the chance to roll the dice and embrace the chaos... and maybe just maybe you'll come out ahead, but only if you stop putting the pansy bureaucrats in charge. The world views the UK as a country in which it requires permission and forms signed in triplicate to pass gas. Change that and you might win.
Have you even been to England?
You guys need to carry ID to buy beer until you're 35.
I'd say it's rather less conservative to trust your populace with weapons, wouldn't you? Rather more open minded and egalitarian. As long as you haven't broken any major laws you are free to defend yourself. The enlightened path is banning knives and guns and having an all-seeing eye on every light pole? Pass. Try getting a driver's license here too. An eight hour class and a bullshit road test. Off you go.
We live in a country that's mostly free and free from bullshit for the most part. Not perfect, but pretty damn good. I guess it helps when your country was founded on principles that are the exact opposite of those of the totalitarian monarchies of the Old World. Europe lightened up tremendously over time, sure, but the old ways still thrive as much as the caste system in India does.
Yes, we have our fair share of people who worship at the altar of planning and safety and trying to control every outcome so that no one ever has a bad day. They call themselves progressives, or liberals, which is a paradox. But I digress.
Last edited by Jay (2019-09-23 16:44:56)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I just don't even know where to begin with this. The EU's existence is an antithesis to conservative thinking. Just what.Jay wrote:
#essays
So much world weary pessimism. Chaos is a path to greatness... or ruin.
Being ultra-conservative and trying to hold on to what you already possess is a slow death. It's the anti-growth path predicated on fear. This is what you've all done by embracing socialistic governments in the first place. They sold you things like a 'social safety net' but what you really got was the slow inexorable decline.
There's no fire, no entrepreneurship, no risk taking, because it's frowned upon. You're all so obsessed with equality and risk mitigation that you stifle all creativity.
The EU will die. Today or tomorrow or a century from now it will dissolve into irrelevance. Brexit is the chance to roll the dice and embrace the chaos... and maybe just maybe you'll come out ahead, but only if you stop putting the pansy bureaucrats in charge. The world views the UK as a country in which it requires permission and forms signed in triplicate to pass gas. Change that and you might win.
Being part of the EU and having a regional / national identity is not mutually exclusive. It's the weirdest of arguments that an international organisation is some sort of existential threat to someone's britishness. The EU won't / can't erase language and culture, I mean one of its motto's is 'united in diversity'.Dilbert_X wrote:
Why is it Europeans are so against Britons having their own identity?
So why do you bring up the issue of "their weirdly idealised fantasy image of the UK & whatever they think a 'British person' is.". Its none of your business really is it?Larssen wrote:
Being part of the EU and having a regional / national identity is not mutually exclusive. It's the weirdest of arguments that an international organisation is some sort of existential threat to someone's britishness. The EU won't / can't erase language and culture, I mean one of its motto's is 'united in diversity'.
Whenever Britain objected to overreach of the European project the French and Germans would snigger and say "aha, the 'little englanders' are at it again, with their nationalism and refusal to assimilate".
Well fuck them frankly. With Brexit hopefully the worst excesses are now dead and buried.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
I thought we were discussing entrepreneurship, not social conservatism particularly.Jay wrote:
[Are we socially conservative? It depends on how you define it. Europe is for the most part, hence the populist backlash sparked by unfettered immigration. Our people are more religious, true, but yours are much more rigid when it comes to social class and obeying social norms. Try jaywalking in Germany and see how many dirty looks you receive.
I'd say it's rather less conservative to trust your populace with weapons, wouldn't you? Rather more open minded and egalitarian. As long as you haven't broken any major laws you are free to defend yourself. The enlightened path is banning knives and guns and having an all-seeing eye on every light pole? Pass. Try getting a driver's license here too. An eight hour class and a bullshit road test. Off you go.
We live in a country that's mostly free and free from bullshit for the most part. Not perfect, but pretty damn good. I guess it helps when your country was founded on principles that are the exact opposite of those of the totalitarian monarchies of the Old World. Europe lightened up tremendously over time, sure, but the old ways still thrive as much as the caste system in India does.
Yes, we have our fair share of people who worship at the altar of planning and safety and trying to control every outcome so that no one ever has a bad day. They call themselves progressives, or liberals, which is a paradox. But I digress.
But yeah, a country which doesn't let you drink until you're 21, requires ID wherever you go and if you get sick lets you die is fairly conservative.
Ownership of guns is an anachronism which has been thoroughly nerfed over the years, and self-defence was never a liberty the writers of the constitution had in mind - it was to ensure the availability of soldiers if the nation needed them.
Otherwise in terms of social progress the EU and countries in it have been fairly radical and progressive over the years. They don't have rules written on parchment which can't be changed. Europe has changed over the years while America has remained stuck in the 1700s, with a political system which is unrepresentative, ensures the rich get richer and more powerful and parliament only has about one year in four to get anything done.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
prorogation illegal, null and void, rules the supreme court.
the prime minister acted consciously and illegally. he effectively lied to the queen in his duties and use of parliamentary protocol.
nigel farage has, bizarrely, called for dominic cummings, the chief policy wonk and advisor behind all this far-right dictatorial nonsense, to resign. he called it ‘the worst decision ever’. lmao wtf. the brexit far-right will all stab each other in the back as soon as they’re caught out.
quite extraordinary scenes. a more momentous and clear legal ruling than anything in the states over various FBI investigations of wrongdoing and testaments before congress.
shady no-deal fuckers
the prime minister acted consciously and illegally. he effectively lied to the queen in his duties and use of parliamentary protocol.
nigel farage has, bizarrely, called for dominic cummings, the chief policy wonk and advisor behind all this far-right dictatorial nonsense, to resign. he called it ‘the worst decision ever’. lmao wtf. the brexit far-right will all stab each other in the back as soon as they’re caught out.
quite extraordinary scenes. a more momentous and clear legal ruling than anything in the states over various FBI investigations of wrongdoing and testaments before congress.
shady no-deal fuckers
Last edited by uziq (2019-09-24 03:52:31)
And shows that Rees-Mogg isn't as clever as he thinks he is.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Because that's exactly the problem - they do consider the EU an existential threat to UK identity. Which is the whole point of nationalism, identity politics. We've been over this many times now Dilbert.Dilbert_X wrote:
So why do you bring up the issue of "their weirdly idealised fantasy image of the UK & whatever they think a 'British person' is.". Its none of your business really is it?Larssen wrote:
Being part of the EU and having a regional / national identity is not mutually exclusive. It's the weirdest of arguments that an international organisation is some sort of existential threat to someone's britishness. The EU won't / can't erase language and culture, I mean one of its motto's is 'united in diversity'.
Whenever Britain objected to overreach of the European project the French and Germans would snigger and say "aha, the 'little englanders' are at it again, with their nationalism and refusal to assimilate".
Well fuck them frankly. With Brexit hopefully the worst excesses are now dead and buried.
Internally many parties in the UK have always framed the participation in the EU as one in which the UK is under constant assault, especially by those pesky French and Germans. Nevermind that the Germans and French have very, very different views on the future of Europe and that almost no fundamental decision can be made without consent of the entire European Council (in which the UK participates...). Instead of challenging this image most of the tories and labour rode that wave of anti-EU sentiment for the better part of the last 40 years. The UK was one of the most influential players in the Union and instrumental in much of its legislation & institutional design, the idea that it is somehow suffering at the whims of a french-german alliance is categorically untrue.
he’s not held as an intellectual force really, anyway, just a showman in parliament with his ‘public school debating society’ schtick. the entire hard-brexit no-deal ERG really are a bunch of intellectual lightweights: observe someone like mark francoise with his ‘my dad in the war’ posturing and you quickly realise they’re a bunch of failed tabloid journalists in savile row suits.Dilbert_X wrote:
And shows that Rees-Mogg isn't as clever as he thinks he is.
if you want some fun as a history reader, check out the reviews and critical reception of rees-mogg’s recent book. very amusing stuff and shows perfectly the calibre of the no-deal lot. jingoistic morons.
Last edited by uziq (2019-09-24 04:07:46)
Thats the way its been perceived for a long time, with plenty of evidence behind it.Larssen wrote:
Internally many parties in the UK have always framed the participation in the EU as one in which the UK is under constant assault, especially by those pesky French and Germans. ... the idea that it is somehow suffering at the whims of a french-german alliance is categorically untrue.
Anecdotally working in Ford of Europe the first instinct of any German in Ford or its suppliers seemed to be to fuck over the British arm - instead of all working together like good Europeans.
Right now Ford sales are doing much better in Britain and other countries than Germany, but Ford Germany have swung it so most of the R+D in Britain is being shut down and moved to Germany.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
i wonder why ford is doing better in britain than in germany? it can’t possibly be because they make audis, bmw’s and volkswagens, among others, which are all infinitely preferable to a ford? must be those scheming quondam Nazis!!!!
the real legitimate arguments for leaving the EU have always been about sovereignty over laws and markets, not identity politics and people being afraid of gallic influences. ffs. you know, all those things that the far-right have shot themselves in the foot over: closing parliament in order to achieve a free parliament, acting unaccountably in the name of criticising unaccountable EU, etc. the rest is xenophobic small fry.
the real legitimate arguments for leaving the EU have always been about sovereignty over laws and markets, not identity politics and people being afraid of gallic influences. ffs. you know, all those things that the far-right have shot themselves in the foot over: closing parliament in order to achieve a free parliament, acting unaccountably in the name of criticising unaccountable EU, etc. the rest is xenophobic small fry.
I'll get around to reading the judgement, but it seems there was no hard evidence of malicious or dishonest intent so I don't really see how they came to the judgement.uziq wrote:
prorogation illegal, null and void, rules the supreme court.
the prime minister acted consciously and illegally. he effectively lied to the queen in his duties and use of parliamentary protocol.
nigel farage has, bizarrely, called for dominic cummings, the chief policy wonk and advisor behind all this far-right dictatorial nonsense, to resign. he called it ‘the worst decision ever’. lmao wtf. the brexit far-right will all stab each other in the back as soon as they’re caught out.
quite extraordinary scenes. a more momentous and clear legal ruling than anything in the states over various FBI investigations of wrongdoing and testaments before congress.
shady no-deal fuckers
He said parliament was being prorogued, for an unusually long time, to prepare for a Queens speech but with no evidence there was another reason I don't see how the judges made the leap to say he lied or acted illegally.
Its pretty obvious that Johnson was being a shit but courts don't rule on 'pretty obvious'.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!