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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,615|4422|eXtreme to the maX
'information on the table at the time' was lies and Blair knew it.

The Scottish court has ruled that if the intention of prorogation is to prevent parliament holding the govt to account then its unlawful.
Lying and presenting false information is the same thing, it prevents parliament holding the govt to account, and it was for Blair's own ends.

As far as I know Johnson isn't using this to kill people, Blair did - including British servicemen.
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uziq
Member
+163|1768
isn’t using it to kill people? leading health professionals have lined up to say that no deal brexit will lead to medicine shortages and unnecessary pain, suffering and anxiety for people. tell the people suffering from chronic pain or neuropathological disorders the govt isn’t responsible for not taking adequate measures to secure their french pharma supplies.

reports have been drawn up that mention avoidable death. the lead consultant brought in to draft a white paper on it had a fracas on live radio with rees-mogg when he asked ‘what is the acceptable rate of mortality for you?’

of course, one of the senior conservatives in the current party, rees-mogg replied by accusing him of not being sufficiently patriotic – and implied that the professional, a career neurologist, was similar to an hysterical anti-vaxxer. class act.
https://news.sky.com/story/jacob-rees-m … r-11802903

so i’m not sure what you’re talking about. people could very conceivably die from a no deal brexit. the govt’s own papers made public today are talking about food, fuel and medical shortages as well as high risk of public disorders. sounds like knowingly encouraging risk and harm to me.

in other news
https://twitter.com/jack_blanchard_/sta … 70081?s=21
you have got to love it. it’s those bloody JAZZ lovers. suspicious sorts.

Last edited by uziq (2019-09-12 01:10:15)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,615|4422|eXtreme to the maX
Johnson isn't planning to actively kill people, rain thousands of tons of high explosive on people and their infrastructure though is he?

If you drop bombs on people its a certainty you're going to kill people, destroy their power stations, water supply, telecommunications, sewage etc its a dead cert people are going to die. Blair was in no doubt about any of this but pushed through his agenda on lies.

By comparison Johnson's behaviour is relatively trivial. Sure it'll hurt economically, and presumably crimp your personal career aspirations which is presumably why you're so butthurt.

But the British people did vote for it, if they were too dumb or lazy to avail themselves of the facts thats too bad.
I think I'd pinpoint the real failure of the political process to be in voting to have a referendum in the first place, basically to appease about 20 crackpots.

MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum with only the Scottish National Party opposing the Bill,[11] and by 316 votes to 53 on its third reading in the Commons on 7 September 2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ … m_Act_2015

There you go, 544:53 and 316:53 wasn't exactly marginal, bad fucking luck, this is what you get if the political elite and the public are a bunch of fuckwits.
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uziq
Member
+163|1768
brexit will crimp my career aspirations? how exactly is brexit supposed to impact the UK publishing industry? or academia? all those EU citizens being forced to leave their senior roles in publishing houses and university departments is going to hurt me ... how, exactly? a bizarre comment. i must be getting somewhere.

your counter-arguments never really highlight anything, do they? 'people are stupid and they deserve to be punished'. yes, the idea of a representative democracy sounds good to me, thanks for echoing the painfully obvious. it's almost like i'm complaining about the undermining and subversion of the world's oldest representative documentary. wow!!!

i don't know, knowingly going ahead with plans that are going to restrict the supply of fresh food to a nation, drive up prices across the board, lead to fuel and medical supply shortages, etc., sounds a little more than 'relatively trivial' to me. it sounds like a govt is taking us into post-ww2 rationing living again voluntarily, because of an ideological reason. it is the exact opposite of what elected officials and a government are entrusted to do. that's bad enough for me.

you keep backtracking and retroactively applying the no-deal scenario now to EVERY single decision made in this process since the referendum was called. you'd make a fucking terrible historian. MPs didn't approve a referendum with this scenario on the table then; the fucking leave campaign didn't campaign based on the assumption of a no-deal 4 years ago (and its chief architects and campaign leaders have said as much): yet you continually say 'tough luck, no deal is what you asked for and it's what yer gonna get'. when it patently wasn't. your wrongheadedness is infuriating. we are here as the result of 4 years of (failed) negotiations, in which multiple possibilities have been taken or foreclosed. stop acting like no deal brexit is some fait accompli that we all thrust upon ourselves as soon as the MPs called a referendum. it is fucking moronic and a total child's eye view of how politics works.

and the decision of a country to go to war 15 years ago is completely unrelated to this topic. your constant references to blair and his 'precedent' for johnson are whatabouttery at its finest. you talk about me posting in this thread because i have some 'personal butthurt', but jesus christ man you mention BLAIR and JEWS in every single thread without hardly even bothering to dress them up with the topic as pre-text. the sheer gall of you accusing me of being 'personally butthurt over my career' (what a random broadside that was; are all brexit critics just worried about a pay rise?) when you cannot shut the fuck up about blair/iraq and israel, is astounding! we get it, your family left the UK in the 90s because of some pedo-ring-police-corruption-jack-straw-tony-blair-WMDs-weren't-real-mossad-did-it controversy. we get it, you've been embroiled in some feud against your 'home you don't recognise anymore' and mired in some legal battle against the blairite establishment. or whatever. you are a fucking joke to accuse me of having some 'personal butthurt' over brexit.

the only people to frequent this forum in two decades who could even hold a flame to your petty personal grudges are ATG and lowing. you are a textbook crank.

Last edited by uziq (2019-09-12 01:41:17)

uziq
Member
+163|1768


this video series has become increasingly fragmented and directionless, as things go on. but it's still the best 'vox pop' journalism around. john harris seems genuinely confused by it all.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,615|4422|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

your counter-arguments never really highlight anything, do they? 'people are stupid and they deserve to be punished'. yes, the idea of a representative democracy sounds good to me, thanks for echoing the painfully obvious. it's almost like i'm complaining about the undermining and subversion of the world's oldest representative documentary.
The oldest representative democracy decided to implement Brexit, Parliament and the British people did it with careful consideration, you don't like it, bad luck.

i don't know, knowingly going ahead with plans that are going to restrict the supply of fresh food to a nation, drive up prices across the board, lead to fuel and medical supply shortages, etc., sounds a little more than 'relatively trivial' to me. it sounds like a govt is taking us into post-ww2 rationing living again voluntarily, because of an ideological reason. it is the exact opposite of what elected officials and a government are entrusted to do. that's bad enough for me.
This is something the free market really will resolve, the prices of a few things may go up, or down. Otherwise situation normal.

you keep backtracking and retroactively applying the no-deal scenario now to EVERY single decision made in this process since the referendum was called. you'd make a fucking terrible historian. MPs didn't approve a referendum with this scenario on the table then; the fucking leave campaign didn't campaign based on the assumption of a no-deal 4 years ago (and its chief architects and campaign leaders have said as much): yet you continually say 'tough luck, no deal is what you asked for and it's what yer gonna get'. when it patently wasn't. your wrongheadedness is infuriating. we are here as the result of 4 years of (failed) negotiations, in which multiple possibilities have been taken or foreclosed. stop acting like no deal brexit is some fait accompli that we all thrust upon ourselves as soon as the MPs called a referendum. it is fucking moronic and a total child's eye view of how politics works.
You keep droning on with this idea that everything was contingent on a deal. I don't remember it.

Can't see any mention of a deal or no deal here
http://www.bailii.org/uk/legis/num_act/ … _en_1.html

I've seen no mention of it anywhere in the official paperwork really, if you can find something knock yourself out.
https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/20 … tages.html

Anyone who thought there was a snowflakes chance in hell of getting any kind of deal which was less painful than remaining in the EU out of the people running the EU would have had a child's eye view of the world.

and the decision of a country to go to war 15 years ago is completely unrelated to this topic. your constant references to blair and his 'precedent' for johnson are whatabouttery at its finest. you talk about me posting in this thread because i have some 'personal butthurt', but jesus christ man you mention BLAIR and JEWS in every single thread without hardly even bothering to dress them up with the topic as pre-text. the sheer gall of you accusing me of being 'personally butthurt over my career' (what a random broadside that was; are all brexit critics just worried about a pay rise?) when you cannot shut the fuck up about blair/iraq and israel, is astounding!
You're presenting Brexit as the worst and most corrupt calamity to hit the UK in a generation, its not by a long shot.

we get it, your family left the UK in the 90s because of some pedo-ring-police-corruption-jack-straw-tony-blair-WMDs-weren't-real-mossad-did-it controversy. we get it, you've been embroiled in some feud against your 'home you don't recognise anymore' and mired in some legal battle against the blairite establishment. or whatever. you are a fucking joke to accuse me of having some 'personal butthurt' over brexit.
So why is it such a big deal for you? Compared with engaging in an illegal war which killed hundreds of thousands of people and cost billions for no clear reason - for example.
the only people to frequent this forum in two decades who could even hold a flame to your petty personal grudges are ATG and lowing.
Thanks!
you are a textbook crank.
You're the one who keeps ranting about this as if its the end-of-times.
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uziq
Member
+163|1768
i'm not ranting about it, am i? i'm discussing it as the news develops. we're living in easily the biggest constitutional crisis since the great war; the united kingdom could very well break up; a huge decision is about to be made; why wouldn't i post about it here? 'ranting'? 'end of times'? hardly! this is the highest political drama i've ever lived through, and you're being facile to deny its import.

it's the entire future of the united kingdom, for better or for worse (in the short to medium term, much more likely for the worst).

i actually live here and, avaricious and pathetic career ambitions aside, it's actually quite normal to take an interest in huge political developments in your own country, you know?
uziq
Member
+163|1768
the free market will resolve things? better let the port authorities know that. don't worry!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,615|4422|eXtreme to the maX
OK well best of luck.
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uziq
Member
+163|1768


a bit about australia from 11:50 on.

Last edited by uziq (2019-09-13 11:55:03)

Larssen
Post limited. Contact Admin to Be Promoted.
+3|203

uziq wrote:

i'm not ranting about it, am i? i'm discussing it as the news develops. we're living in easily the biggest constitutional crisis since the great war; the united kingdom could very well break up; a huge decision is about to be made; why wouldn't i post about it here? 'ranting'? 'end of times'? hardly! this is the highest political drama i've ever lived through, and you're being facile to deny its import.

it's the entire future of the united kingdom, for better or for worse (in the short to medium term, much more likely for the worst).

i actually live here and, avaricious and pathetic career ambitions aside, it's actually quite normal to take an interest in huge political developments in your own country, you know?
I've found that anyone who supports leave or is otherwise anti-EU downplays and trivialises both the significance of the brexit vote and its possible consequences (not just in the UK but many countries). There's a disillusionment underlying the complacency - a feeling that the vote/voting doesn't really matter and that nothing will change significantly no matter voting behaviour. I see this in family members who hold ever more extremist political preferences. The logic being that voting for the radical choice is the only way to nudge political reality closer to their preferences, which also seems to have been a motivator for many who voted brexit.

In a way it feels like the slow unravelling of democracy, as clearly self-destructive behaviour gains in acceptance and popularity for reasons I don't fully understand.
uziq
Member
+163|1768
it is patently self-destructive and that wise-arses like dilbert can only ultimately say 'well, good luck, *popcorn*' isn't exactly enlightening.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+711|5000|United States of America
From what I've read, there is a not-insignificant amount people who say "let's just get it over with". To these people, they are seemingly preferring the well-established risks of a No Deal over the inconvenience of having to pay attention to/be involved with the important political shit going on that has long-lasting effects for their country. The fuck.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,747|5087|USA

I think if a particular news item lingers for too long, people tend to get sick of it and want to see it go away regardless of what it is. I think that's partially a side effect of "news as entertainment" being a thing for so long.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,615|4422|eXtreme to the maX

DesertFox- wrote:

From what I've read, there is a not-insignificant amount people who say "let's just get it over with". To these people, they are seemingly preferring the well-established risks of a No Deal over the inconvenience of having to pay attention to/be involved with the important political shit going on that has long-lasting effects for their country. The fuck.
If it had been sorted out three years ago as it should have been everything would have stabilised by now.
There wouldn't have been three years of chaos and stagnation.
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uziq
Member
+163|1768

DesertFox- wrote:

From what I've read, there is a not-insignificant amount people who say "let's just get it over with". To these people, they are seemingly preferring the well-established risks of a No Deal over the inconvenience of having to pay attention to/be involved with the important political shit going on that has long-lasting effects for their country. The fuck.
as i said earlier in this thread, these same people had no great passion about 'the european question' in 2004. it wasn't on the agenda of the 'man on the street' in 1999. the european question was confined to in-fighting amongst establishment tories, and has been a rumbling row that has split the party ideologically since we joined the union (with even hardline conservatives like thatcher being pro-EU). it has seldom ever sparked real movements or surges of feeling in the mainstream population; witness the pitiful voting results for parties that campaigned to leave europe pre-the referendum. we even had 'UKIP scares' before the referendum in which the main party campaigning on anti-EU (and also a lot of anti-foreigner, anti-immigrant, British Nationalist Party-adjacent rhetoric) polled terribly, and never managed to elect anyone to a seat in parliament. people have never really had an appetite for the issue before the referendum campaign (which was, again, called to satisfy a party-political quarrel amongst the political class, not called because there was overwhelming demand for it in the streets).

a spectacular backfire. and now it sometimes feels like a civil war, with this 'burning question' 'dividing families'. it's quite incredible. everyone all of a sudden is a radical for a cause or has some deep-seated, fundamental belief about europe that defines their identity. and, yes, a large proportion of people are now bored of the actual politics, policy, talks of negotiations, deals, the real stuff of national politics, and want their impulsive whims to be enacted immediately -- even if that involves breaking the law. a truly bizarre situation that only proves the wisdom of representative democracies and the limits they place on direct forms of populism.

Last edited by uziq (2019-09-15 03:11:22)

uziq
Member
+163|1768

Dilbert_X wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

From what I've read, there is a not-insignificant amount people who say "let's just get it over with". To these people, they are seemingly preferring the well-established risks of a No Deal over the inconvenience of having to pay attention to/be involved with the important political shit going on that has long-lasting effects for their country. The fuck.
If it had been sorted out three years ago as it should have been everything would have stabilised by now.
There wouldn't have been three years of chaos and stagnation.
who could possibly disagree with this statement? you do know who was stymying the process and rejecting everything brought forward, right? the hard-brexieteers who wouldn't compromise on their niche vision. the european research group. farage. rees-mogg. latterly the opportunistic johnson. the only people frustrating the process are the hardline ideologues. you cannot do national politics through sheer bloodymindedness.

Last edited by uziq (2019-09-15 03:18:50)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,615|4422|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

[as i said earlier in this thread, these same people had no great passion about 'the european question' in 2004. it wasn't on the agenda of the 'man on the street' in 1999. the european question was confined to in-fighting amongst establishment tories, and has been a rumbling row that has split the party ideologically since we joined the union (with even hardline conservatives like thatcher being pro-EU). it has seldom ever sparked real movements or surges of feeling in the mainstream population; witness the pitiful voting results for parties that campaigned to leave europe pre-the referendum. we even had 'UKIP scares' before the referendum in which the main party campaigning on anti-EU (and also a lot of anti-foreigner, anti-immigrant, British Nationalist Party-adjacent rhetoric) polled terribly, and never managed to elect anyone to a seat in parliament. people have never really had an appetite for the issue before the referendum campaign (which was, again, called to satisfy a party-political quarrel amongst the political class, not called because there was overwhelming demand for it in the streets).
The 'man on the street' became pissed about various issues since 1999, immigration, refugees, bailouts etc. hence Brexit got more the 50% of the vote, not the 20 or so nutty tories you keep blaming for this.

This wasn't a blip, take a look at the Euro elections. The public voted and they wanted their vote respected - for good or bad.

The issue isn't reality, its that you're divorced from it.
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,615|4422|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

From what I've read, there is a not-insignificant amount people who say "let's just get it over with". To these people, they are seemingly preferring the well-established risks of a No Deal over the inconvenience of having to pay attention to/be involved with the important political shit going on that has long-lasting effects for their country. The fuck.
If it had been sorted out three years ago as it should have been everything would have stabilised by now.
There wouldn't have been three years of chaos and stagnation.
who could possibly disagree with this statement? you do know who was stymying the process and rejecting everything brought forward, right? the hard-brexieteers who wouldn't compromise on their niche vision. the european research group. farage. rees-mogg. latterly the opportunistic johnson. the only people frustrating the process are the hardline ideologues. you cannot do national politics through sheer bloodymindedness.
Again, 20 or so nuts couldn't realistically have stymied anything, and they didn't.
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uziq
Member
+163|1768
you have a very shaky grasp on UK parliamentary politics. the conservatives are only in power because of a coalition with northern ireland's DUP. 20 rebels voting against their own party PERFECTLY WELL stymied the process. some labour MPs voted across the benches with the conservatives on some issues. more remainer conservative MPs have voted in support of brexit legislation, accepting that it is the outcome of the referendum, than the hard-line brexiteers have. that's is more or less the story of the last two years of parliamentary proceedings. people across parties and across the spectrum of opinion have been making compromises, coming to agreements, trying to work out a happy and representative result. except for the hardline brexiters.

jesus christ you are dense.

Last edited by uziq (2019-09-15 03:39:53)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,615|4422|eXtreme to the maX
A sensible Brexit deal which had Labour support would have got through no problem.

Its like you don't know maths or something.

May just ploughed her furrow without involving anyone else.
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uziq
Member
+163|1768

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

[as i said earlier in this thread, these same people had no great passion about 'the european question' in 2004. it wasn't on the agenda of the 'man on the street' in 1999. the european question was confined to in-fighting amongst establishment tories, and has been a rumbling row that has split the party ideologically since we joined the union (with even hardline conservatives like thatcher being pro-EU). it has seldom ever sparked real movements or surges of feeling in the mainstream population; witness the pitiful voting results for parties that campaigned to leave europe pre-the referendum. we even had 'UKIP scares' before the referendum in which the main party campaigning on anti-EU (and also a lot of anti-foreigner, anti-immigrant, British Nationalist Party-adjacent rhetoric) polled terribly, and never managed to elect anyone to a seat in parliament. people have never really had an appetite for the issue before the referendum campaign (which was, again, called to satisfy a party-political quarrel amongst the political class, not called because there was overwhelming demand for it in the streets).
The 'man on the street' became pissed about various issues since 1999, immigration, refugees, bailouts etc. hence Brexit got more the 50% of the vote, not the 20 or so nutty tories you keep blaming for this.

This wasn't a blip, take a look at the Euro elections. The public voted and they wanted their vote respected - for good or bad.

The issue isn't reality, its that you're divorced from it.
the 'reality' is that 52% of people voted to leave the european union. not an overwhelming mandate, and certainly not an endorsement for the vision of brexit that has been foisted upon parliament by the hardline brexiters. you cannot take a 3/4% majority and use it to implement the most hardline, far-right vision. that's not how representative democracy works in a pluralist modern country with 70 million inhabitants.

your 'tough luck, you lost, rejoin reality' attitude works for an afternoon cricket game, but not for generation-defining political decisions. evidently parliament are on my side as the prime minister's current pact with the brexiters has seen him lose every single vote he has brought to the chamber, and is now being challenged legally in the supreme court. funny how your 'common sense' has precipitated the biggest constitutional crisis in this country since the great war, isn't it? it's almost  ... as if ... it isn't common sense.
uziq
Member
+163|1768

Dilbert_X wrote:

A sensible Brexit deal which had Labour support would have got through no problem.

Its like you don't know maths or something.

May just ploughed her furrow without involving anyone else.
yes, we have already established that may's negotiating strategy was entirely wrong. but it was wrong because she went in the direction of the hardline brexiters, not otherwise. as it stands, she did pretty well out of an incredibly divided and headless opposition in Labour. more labour MPs went across to vote with the tory's than would normally have ever happened. can you imagine a rees-mogg or a patten voting across the benches in support of Labour for, well, anything?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,615|4422|eXtreme to the maX
Like I said before, the time for Parliament to scupper Brexit was when they voted to hold the referendum. Its no use trying to claim the public voted 'Leave' when if they'd thought a bit harder they would have voted 'Remain' so Parliament should ignore the referendum.
They've been fucking around with this shit voting down their own bills for 3+ years now in parliament, the people are tired of it and want it done.

Like I said before, the public effectively voted for a no-deal Brexit, you can whine and pout as long as you like - thats the reality.
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uziq
Member
+163|1768
https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/11 … 26592?s=21

lots of establishment, metropolitan pouters here.

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