We should break up the Indian reservations

2013-08-10 11:50:47

#1

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

It would be for their own good.

Poverty on reservations is many times worse than the national average. Tribes are unable to provide adequate education for their members and jobs are scarce. Putting them in their local state system would open up new opportunities and give them access to more education and job resources.

Also abuse is rampant in the tribal system. Rape is an epidemic. Tribes either lack the resources or the will to protect women and children from abuse. There was a story in the news about a criminal who was chased by county police into a reservation. He ran into a home that wasn't his and held out there until tribal police could show up since only tribal police have authority on reservations. The county police knew the man was in the home but were unable to do anything about it while they waited. Several hours passed and the tribal police showed up to get the guy out of the home. Well in the time that it took tribal police to show up, the criminal had raped 2 girls in the home.

Is all this rape and abuse worth protecting tribal leader's rights to rule over innocent people? I don't think so. We need to break up the reservations and assimilate the 700,000 people living on them into the local governments.

2013-08-10 11:54:57

#2

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5596|London, England

Macbeth wrote:
It would be for their own good.

Poverty on reservations is many times worse than the national average. Tribes are unable to provide adequate education for their members and jobs are scarce. Putting them in their local state system would open up new opportunities and give them access to more education and job resources.

Also abuse is rampant in the tribal system. Rape is an epidemic. Tribes either lack the resources or the will to protect women and children from abuse. There was a story in the news about a criminal who was chased by county police into a reservation. He ran into a home that wasn't his and held out there until tribal police could show up since only tribal police have authority on reservations. The county police knew the man was in the home but were unable to do anything about it while they waited. Several hours passed and the tribal police showed up to get the guy out of the home. Well in the time that it took tribal police to show up, the criminal had raped 2 girls in the home.

Is all this rape and abuse worth protecting tribal leader's rights to rule over innocent people? I don't think so. We need to break up the reservations and assimilate the 700,000 people living on them into the local governments.

They can leave the reservation and join the rest of society any time they want.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2013-08-10 12:04:05

#3

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

It is not that easy. How far in life could a 14 year old abused girl get? Not far. We don't have the resources in place to help people like that. It is why most runways end up either homeless or as prostitutes. The whole runaway and start a new life thing is a fantasy. Especially in the country with the least financial mobility in the entire Western world.

Can you give a reason why the system should remain in place other than the fact that people can flee it like Germans over the Berlin wall?

Last edited by Macbeth (2013-08-10 12:09:57)

2013-08-10 12:16:46

#4

Extra Medium: THE UZI SLAYER; +79|4434|Oklahoma

I can tell you from experience that most of them prefer that lifestyle.

They are free to leave and move about the country at will, you know. It isn't like they are prisoners in a ghetto. Not to mention, you would absolutely destroy their way of life by doing that.

Instead of watching a TV show on Indians, hows about you leave the tri-state area and go meet some. It might blow your mind. I can guarantee you wouldn't make anymore stupid threads like this one.

2013-08-10 12:22:32

#5

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

I don't care how many of them prefer to live in the ghetto. We have a duty to protect the most vulnerable members of society that livea in our borders. Like I said before, it isn't that easy to just get up and leave. That is a Hollywood fantasy.

For someone that cries about people singling him out , you sure can be an unnecessary prick.

2013-08-10 15:53:52

#6

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5596|London, England

Macbeth wrote:
I don't care how many of them prefer to live in the ghetto. We have a duty to protect the most vulnerable members of society that livea in our borders. Like I said before, it isn't that easy to just get up and leave. That is a Hollywood fantasy.

For someone that cries about people singling him out , you sure can be an unnecessary prick.

So, in your opinion, should kids be raised by the state?

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2013-08-10 16:57:14

#7

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

No. They should be raised in households that can provide adequate protection and security while respecting their rights. The local tribe master doesn't fulfill the governments part in the equation.

How is that even remotely related to my point?

2013-08-10 16:58:45

#8

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

Again, can you give me a reason why the current corrupt system is preferable to the one we live in?

2013-08-10 17:41:36

#9

War Man: Australians are hermaphrodites.; +564|6952|Purplicious Wisconsin

Because your proposal has worse consequences. Why must the Government intervene in things they have no business in?

The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.

2013-08-10 17:48:49

#10

deeznutz1245: Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.; +483|6731|Connecticut

I was just at the Avenged Sevenfold concert last night at Foxwoods and they seemed to be doing just fine on the Pequot resort. Im pretty sure we should stop telling anybody where they can and cant live and mind our own fucking business. Im sure they really appreciate the settlers enslaving, relocating, and converting them to Christianity for their own good last go-around. Drop the one worlder attitude and let them make their own choices.

Malloy must go

2013-08-10 18:04:09

#11

Steve-0: Karma limited. Contact Admin to Be Promoted.; +215|4198|SL,UT

having more than a little native american ancestry, i don't think you can redress the wrongs of previous generations. you play the hand you were dealt and make the most of it. the AIM movement proved that native americans don't have the attention of middle america, and reservations were for the convenience of white america. it's amazing to me that an arab from new jersey is espousing the aim of AIM. . .

2013-08-10 18:17:38

#12

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5596|London, England

Macbeth wrote:
No. They should be raised in households that can provide adequate protection and security while respecting their rights. The local tribe master doesn't fulfill the governments part in the equation.

How is that even remotely related to my point?

Government outside of reservations fails all the time too. Look at the high incidence of death and abuse in the government run foster care programs. Government is not a panacea that can cure the worlds ills, that only happens in sociology studies. In fact, it's difficult to imagine much that runs better after government gets involved, especially when it comes to abuse that occurs behind closed doors on private property.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2013-08-10 18:25:02

#13

Spearhead: Gulf coast redneck hippy; +731|6928|Tampa Bay Florida

True dat. Foster care is a failed system

2013-08-10 18:48:39

#14

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

Jay wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
No. They should be raised in households that can provide adequate protection and security while respecting their rights. The local tribe master doesn't fulfill the governments part in the equation.

How is that even remotely related to my point?
Government outside of reservations fails all the time too. Look at the high incidence of death and abuse in the government run foster care programs. Government is not a panacea that can cure the worlds ills, that only happens in sociology studies. In fact, it's difficult to imagine much that runs better after government gets involved, especially when it comes to abuse that occurs behind closed doors on private property.

I'm not proposing anyone's children be put in foster care. I'm saying we give people the opportunity to take advantage and use our American government resources instead of relying on old tribal elders.

If you want to talk about failed governments... If you thought your neighbor's child was being physically or sexually abused what would you do since you lived in NYC? You are almost certain a little girl is getting dicked and beat up. You would contact your local Division of Youth and Family Services or your local police department. Because that is the local institution which is set up to handle cases like that. If you were a tribal named Smoking Turtle and lived on some reservation who would you take the case to? The local tribal elder. What resources does the local tribal elder have to take care of the case? None compared to the local DYFS. If they even decide to look into the case they would lack the tools to investigate or handle post investigation prosecution and child care. Does the tribe have educated child psychiatrist? No. The state's DYFS does though. But since the crime happened on tribal land it is the business of the tribe and not an institution which is better funded, and more experienced that the local tribal elder.

You still haven't given me a single way the reservation system is better. Saying they are happy in hell and the guvment sucks isn't a counter argument.

2013-08-10 18:55:26

#15

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

deeznutz1245 wrote:
I was just at the Avenged Sevenfold concert last night at Foxwoods and they seemed to be doing just fine on the Pequot resort. Im pretty sure we should stop telling anybody where they can and cant live and mind our own fucking business. Im sure they really appreciate the settlers enslaving, relocating, and converting them to Christianity for their own good last go-around. Drop the one worlder attitude and let them make their own choices.

That one tribe is not the norm. Here read A report from Harvard regarding Indian affairs.
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.t … _09_07.pdf
Crime, poverty and education problems plague the majority of reservations. Using this one tribe as an example is like holding up Beverly Hills as an example of how most Americans live. Never mind the ghettos of Detroit. But maybe we should mind other people's business and let the people of Detroit seek self determination and not give them access to federal and state assistance. Yeah that works.

2013-08-10 21:52:21

#16

deeznutz1245: Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.; +483|6731|Connecticut

Macbeth wrote:
Crime, poverty and education problems plague the majority of reservations. Using this one tribe as an example is like holding up Beverly Hills as an example of how most Americans live. Never mind the ghettos of Detroit. But maybe we should mind other people's business and let the people of Detroit seek self determination and not give them access to federal and state assistance. Yeah that works.

First off, yeah, you are correct it does work. Detroit has been run by liberals since the mid 60's and the city has been getting "assistance" for so long the constituants cant figure out how to provide for themselves anymore. Take the bus, have some unemployment money, here are some food stamps, oh and we will pay your rent too. Where the hell has that gotten them? A shitty football team and bankrupcy thats where.

I came from poverty. I came from a family where we hunted for food in the mountains of VT because we didnt eat otherwise. I got my fathers second hand shoes, picked vegatables in fields during the summer at the age of 12 and forked it all over to my parents for the mortgage, oh and I battled alcoholism and won. I could have stuck around and said it is what it is but I left for Parris Island SC with $16 in my pocket and made a nice life for myself. I worked full time and put myself through college living in various places, sometimes in a motel, I paid a garage owner $50 a week and swept his shop so I could live in this office above his shop. I struggled but now my wife stays home, we have two kids that will never know my struggles, we own our home along with a Denali, BRZ and a Ram king cab to tow our boat. My point is self accountabilty works. Self accountability and determination are no longer popular though and I cant figure out why. Boo fucking hoo to the people in the ghetto who never leave the ghetto so they can stick around and do hoodrat things. I dont give a shit about them, not until they get out of the projects and look to get work in other places. I could go on craigslist right now and find a job in that area doing something. It may be a shit job but it would be enough to get by and I would find ways to cut corners and live within my means until I could work my way up. Ive been there before, but maybe your right. Maybe we should just shove titties in everyones mouth to feed on all the time.

Malloy must go

2013-08-10 22:02:46

#17

deeznutz1245: Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.; +483|6731|Connecticut

And before I get some bullshit , hippy liberal, tree hugging response accompanied by a link that I wont even read because its fucking stupid anyway, I just wanted to let everyone know that I already know Im not very popular on this site. But then again you already know I dont care:)

Malloy must go

2013-08-10 22:06:17

#18

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

This really, really, really isn't about welfare or how hard working anyone is. I'm not debating Detroit. I'm not debating the merits of food stamps or public assistance. Indians already get those which is I agree part of the problem. What I am debating is who has the authority to make legal, political, and social decisions at the government level. Please refer to my previous example in response to Jay. As noted the local tribal government doesn't have the ability to handle cases like child abuse or rape. Unless you consider DYFS to be a handout then please provide a response as to why people should be forced to live under a usually corrupt and ineffective government when they could be folded into the larger and comparably better state and federal governments.

In fact I will quote the prior argument for you.

If you thought your neighbor's child was being physically or sexually abused what would you do since you lived in NYC? You are almost certain a little girl is getting dicked and beat up. You would contact your local Division of Youth and Family Services or your local police department. Because that is the local institution which is set up to handle cases like that. If you were a tribal named Smoking Turtle and lived on some reservation who would you take the case to? The local tribal elder. What resources does the local tribal elder have to take care of the case? None compared to the local DYFS. If they even decide to look into the case they would lack the tools to investigate or handle post investigation prosecution and child care. Does the tribe have educated child psychiatrist? No. The state's DYFS does though. But since the crime happened on tribal land it is the business of the tribe and not an institution which is better funded, and more experienced that the local tribal elder.

Last edited by Macbeth (2013-08-10 22:08:16)

2013-08-10 22:20:45

#19

deeznutz1245: Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.; +483|6731|Connecticut

Then I would ask what we did the previous gazillion years before DCFS existed. I would then ask what makes ANY state or govt agency qualified to determine the well being of anyone.

Malloy must go

2013-08-10 22:32:00

#20

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

Children were sexually and physically abused without any recourse?

I am assuming you have never heard of the social contract or Hobbes, Rousseau, and Locke. Have you heard of any of those?

2013-08-10 23:46:51

#21

War Man: Australians are hermaphrodites.; +564|6952|Purplicious Wisconsin

They won't want the help mac, get that through your head. So bad things happen, they made their decision.

Should we invade North Korea right now because their civilians are being abused by their military/government? I thought you liked Asian girls and don't like them getting hurt, we must strike now to save them, then.

The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.

2013-08-11 00:06:56

#22

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

Lower members of their society like children don't have the ability to make that choice. Further, just because they want to live in substandard conditions doesn't mean we have to let them and subsidize it. We already pay for their medicare, welfare, foodstamps, medicaid, and social security. They are already part of the system. The only thing preventing them from having all of the non-material benefits we have is a local government and elite that will cry racism and genocide if you try to free people from it.

You wouldn't give a suicidal man bullets to shoot himself and you wouldn't listen to his life insurance receivers pleas to respect his wishes. Why let a community kill itself for the benefit of the tribal elders?

Invading North Korea would end the lives of millions. Disbanding a local government, holding elections, and retraining the police force is a 100% bloodless act and something that can be done in all of a week. Not even comparable.

Last edited by Macbeth (2013-08-11 00:07:24)

2013-08-11 00:23:37

#23

Extra Medium: THE UZI SLAYER; +79|4434|Oklahoma

Macbeth wrote:
I don't care how many of them prefer to live in the ghetto. We have a duty to protect the most vulnerable members of society that livea in our borders.

No, we don't. We have a moral obligation to help those in our society whom cannot help themselves. This referes to the handicapped, the elderly, orphans, people with terminal illnesses, refugees, etc etc. NOT those who DO NOT help themselves. I grew up and live in Oklahoma dumbass, I see more indians on a trip to the grocery store than you'll see in your entire lifetime of squatting in some shitty tri-state dump. They receive free medical, free eye and dental, free insurance, free housing, tax-free stores, free welfare, free school supplies and checks for the all the water, mineral, land, and casino revenues from all of the non-indian commercial buildup on "their" land.

WHAT. THE. FUCK. ELSE. DO. YOU. WANT. TO. GIVE. THEM.

Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to see your parents struggling to make ends meet, working 12-14 hours a day to pay for everything when across the fucking street there is a family of prairie n*****s that get a free house, a free car, free food and a goddamn check in the mail for doing nothing more than sitting around drinking all day and for crawling out of the correct ethnic vag? What's worse was watching that free house get rundown and overgrown by vegetation in under a year.

They don't care. They live like that because they want too. They enjoy it, and I say that with every bit of certainty and sincerity. Go to google maps and just look at google street views in Holdenville OK, or Wetumpka OK or Seminole OK, or Weleeka OK, or Gerty OK. Free fucking housing turned into ghettos within a year.

What is it exactly that you want to give to them? You say you don't want to put them on the government titty, but you want to take away their main source of income? You're like a M. Night Shymalananan movie. Stupid, full of plot holes and poorly directed.

Macbeth wrote:
Like I said before, it isn't that easy to just get up and leave. That is a Hollywood fantasy.
For someone that cries about people singling him out , you sure can be an unnecessary prick.

I know at least 4 different people on this nearly deserted website that did just that. Just because you are to much of a pussy to do it doesn't mean everyone in the world is. Pretty easy to sit there and tell people that they can't ever leave a bad situation and better themselves, or people who join the military are lazy moochers or some other tidbit of Macbeth idiocy when you are sitting in your parents basement dropping acid, watching trees for hours on end and jerking your tiny future welfare baby maker to some second rate asian porn.

2013-08-11 00:59:13

#24

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5824

How hard is it for you ignorant assholes to understand that this isn't about welfare and money? I swear I must be typing in another language since you are the second to bring up welfare and foodstamps. Reread my post a few times. It is about replacing their tribal governments and providing better functioning ALREADY EXISTING American institutions in its place. This isn't about handouts and foodstamps. It is about something that transcends dollars and cents. If you can't understand that than please leave and take Cyborg with you so I can discuss this with other people who at least understand the premise of my thread.

Last edited by Macbeth (2013-08-11 01:02:03)

2013-08-11 03:59:19

#25

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5596|London, England

Macbeth wrote:
How hard is it for you ignorant assholes to understand that this isn't about welfare and money? I swear I must be typing in another language since you are the second to bring up welfare and foodstamps. Reread my post a few times. It is about replacing their tribal governments and providing better functioning ALREADY EXISTING American institutions in its place. This isn't about handouts and foodstamps. It is about something that transcends dollars and cents. If you can't understand that than please leave and take Cyborg with you so I can discuss this with other people who at least understand the premise of my thread.

If it really was an issue to them, and they wanted it, they could leave the tribal grounds or adopt "American style" local government. It's not, so they don't. Stop meddling with peoples' lives who don't want your help. They know what they need better than whatever yuppie author you read does.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

BF2S Forums We should break up the Indian reservations

Macbeth wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Board footer