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Poll

I am _______ concealed weapons and I live...

_for_...in the US.43%43% - 97
_for_...in another nation where they are allowed.3%3% - 7
_for_...in a nation where they are disallowed.10%10% - 23
_against_...in the US.5%5% - 13
_against_...in another nation where they are allowed.2%2% - 5
_against_...in a nation where they are disallowed.35%35% - 80
Total: 225
2006-09-03 17:49:28
[bdb]donutmaster
Member
+2|6457
Spark wrote:
I think concealed wepons is a stupid idea. Most criminals won't attack you if they know you've got a gun, most robbers won't rob you if they know you're home. So unless you actually WANT to kill someone, it's kind of a dumbass idea.


Ok,  this is my first post here.  I have been coming to the site checking out my stats and what not for months now.    Spark,  not attacking you,   but I think your reasoning is bullshit.   Criminals dont care for human life,  they could care less if  they kill you when they rob you.  They WILL run into your house if you open the door for them at night,  or hell,  even during the day.   They WILL come up behind you when you are getting to the car to take your ride.  They will rob you and shoot you.    A lot of studies state that criminals are more scared of every day citizens then they are of police.   

Case in point,  I was robbed where I work.  I was almost robbed again 2 months later,  both times I saw a gun.

Now   I have a concealed weapons license.  I carry daily.  I am also a very polite person most of the times.   I try my damndest to stay out of situations that are trouble.  I have had to pull my gun out twice since I got the permit.    Both of the times I pulled it because I thought I was going to be robbed.   

The crime in the city where I live is going up every day.  I AM NOT going to be a victim again.   I have taken the training classes.   I have fired the guns at the range 3 times a week.  I also have wrote out scenarios with paper and pen.

Until it happens,  most people are ho-hum about it.    The last thing I want to do is actaully kill someone,  I will protect myself.

So what is so dumbassed about that??
2006-09-04 00:08:54
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6655|Seattle, WA

Spearhead wrote:

I am for, but only 1 out of 10 people should be carrying them.  You shouldn't just be able to walk into a store and buy one and get a concealed gun license in only a few days or weeks.  I think you should have to go through much more. 

So, yes, but the way it's being done/regulated, no
Only 5% of adults carry concealed.

I don't think the process is too botched, but it wouldn't hurt to increase punishments for crimes committed with firearms.
2006-09-04 00:10:37
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6655|Seattle, WA

CameronPoe wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

This poll currently seems to be divided roughly between US nationals who are for firearms rights and those foreign to the US who are not. I expected as much.
That's because it seems to me that we have no gun crime at all really (because guns are illegal and very difficult to procure) and far lower levels of homicide than the US and as such we believe our system to be the better one. The US has considerable levels of gun crime and as such many people there want to carry guns (thus perpetuating gun crime).
5% U.S. adults.....gov't report....... that must be soo many


Sure of course if you outlaw guns outright and remove them competely (which is impossible) there will be less crime in the long run, but you lose a couple of things

1) A fun sport
2) A way to rebel against the government
3) Economical capital.
2006-09-04 00:13:17
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6655|Seattle, WA

jonsimon wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

If they are to approach it from that angle of "logic," they should also suggest avoiding intimate partners. And suicide? If you're going to kill yourself, you don't need a gun to do it. I'm sick of poorly-written fact sheets.
Um, sorry, but when presented with a painless method of death, one is far more likely to commit suicide.
Falls from small buildings and hanging are slow painful deaths, and not always certain death. A gunshot in the mouth, however, is instant death almost every time.
Barely 55% of suicides were committed last year by firearms.  A majority yes, but that still leaves quite A LOT other deaths.
2006-09-04 00:14:59
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6655|Seattle, WA

[bdb]donutmaster wrote:

The crime in the city where I live is going up every day. I AM NOT going to be a victim again.   I have taken the training classes.   I have fired the guns at the range 3 times a week.  I also have wrote out scenarios with paper and pen.

Until it happens,  most people are ho-hum about it.    The last thing I want to do is actaully kill someone,  I will protect myself.

So what is so dumbassed about that??
Excellent post. +1
2006-09-04 01:47:38
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6670|BC, Canada

Bubbalo wrote:

ATG wrote:

I did a good sized job in Las Vegas and came back with 14k in cash.
Do you think that all I had was a toothpick?
Here's a thought: don't carry 14k in cash.  There are these things called banks for just that purpose.
2006-09-04 01:51:16
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6670|BC, Canada
how about this... instead of everyone carrying one for protection against crimanals. why  not lobby for criminals who are caught with a fire arm to be charged with attemped murder. make the punishment worse insdead of making everyone into a vigalante....
2006-09-04 05:17:52
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6783|PNW

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

This poll currently seems to be divided roughly between US nationals who are for firearms rights and those foreign to the US who are not. I expected as much.

---

I skimmed through the fact sheet. This was a pretty little piece:

The gun industry markets to women under the guise of self-protection. They promote the myth that a gun will protect a woman if she is attacked by a stalker,criminal,rapist or other stranger.But the facts show that about twice as many women are shot by their intimate partner than are klled by strangers using guns or any other means.

If they are to approach it from that angle of "logic," they should also suggest avoiding intimate partners. And suicide? If you're going to kill yourself, you don't need a gun to do it. I'm sick of poorly-written fact sheets.

SGT.Slayero wrote:

what r u some kind of arab or some thing?
No. I was saying that if an anti-gun fact sheet is trying to make an impression that women are shot by their lovers more than strangers, then (along those same lines of logic), shouldn't women avoid intimate partners as well? It's called sarcasm, dear boy.

jonsimon wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

If they are to approach it from that angle of "logic," they should also suggest avoiding intimate partners. And suicide? If you're going to kill yourself, you don't need a gun to do it. I'm sick of poorly-written fact sheets.
Um, sorry, but when presented with a painless method of death, one is far more likely to commit suicide.
Falls from small buildings and hanging are slow painful deaths, and not always certain death. A gunshot in the mouth, however, is instant death almost every time.
Instant death is easy to obtain. A truck smashing into you at 75mph, or falling off of a bridge or building of sufficient height is just as effective as a bullet to the head which is not always, as you say guaranteed to be instant death.

CameronPoe wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

This poll currently seems to be divided roughly between US nationals who are for firearms rights and those foreign to the US who are not. I expected as much.
That's because it seems to me that we have no gun crime at all really (because guns are illegal and very difficult to procure) and far lower levels of homicide than the US and as such we believe our system to be the better one. The US has considerable levels of gun crime and as such many people there want to carry guns (thus perpetuating gun crime).
Whatever works for you. I'm not going to fly over to Ireland to campaign for gun ownership. But yes, the whole reason why I posted this poll was to divide samplings of opinion based on culture, rather than just lumping international results into a simple yes/no format.

However, I do not perpetuate gun crime, because I do not walk around town shooting anyone. Nor do I perpetuate knife crime. Nor longbow crime. Nor credit card crime. Nor rock crime. Nor (etc.). Nor do my friends (as far as I'm aware of ). I'm not a 'missionary' from the NRA. I'll never begrudge anyone their right not to defend themselves if they don't want to. I don't drag people to gun shops and force them to purchase weapons for self-defense, and all I ask in return is that they don't drag me from them. The concept of personal rights revoked due to the stupidity of others is abhorrent to me. What if Battlefield 2 was withdrawn from the shelves because some dumb kid decided to reenact Karkand in his neighborhood? An unrealistic scenario I suppose, as the freshly villanized 'Doom' remained available after the Columbine shooting, but still.

---

It's been suggested in this thread that penalties for crimes committed with firearms should be increased. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-09-04 05:21:57)

2006-09-04 05:37:06
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6566

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

However, I do not perpetuate gun crime, because I do not walk around town shooting anyone. Nor do I perpetuate knife crime. Nor longbow crime. Nor credit card crime. Nor rock crime. Nor (etc.). Nor do my friends (as far as I'm aware of ). I'm not a 'missionary' from the NRA. I'll never begrudge anyone their right not to defend themselves if they don't want to. I don't drag people to gun shops and force them to purchase weapons for self-defense, and all I ask in return is that they don't drag me from them. The concept of personal rights revoked due to the stupidity of others is abhorrent to me. What if Battlefield 2 was withdrawn from the shelves because some dumb kid decided to reenact Karkand in his neighborhood? An unrealistic scenario I suppose, as the freshly villanized 'Doom' remained available after the Columbine shooting, but still.
I'm not saying that gun crime is perpetuated by gun ownership because guns are being used in self defence by all and sundry. I'm saying that it's being perpetuated because a criminal needs a gun to carry a sufficient level of threat to carry out a particular crime because there is a likelihood that the victim could be armed. The only solution, which is completely implausible, would be to withdraw all guns from American society. The fact that the right to bear arms is guaranteed by the constitution means it isn't even worth talking about either. The one valuable purpose the right to bear arms serves is the original one it was intended to be for - to enable every American citizen to form militias and defend the homeland. Kind of like what is happening in Palestine and Iraq right now. If someone invaded USA and broke the conventional military they'd have a world of guerrilla shit on their hands because of the right to bear arms.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-09-04 05:38:21)

2006-09-04 06:13:05
Darktongue
Member
+0|6456
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

                             Homicide                Suicide            Unintentional

USA                       4.08 (1999)               6.08 (1999)         0.42 (1999)

Canada                  0.54 (1999)              2.65 (1997)         0.15 (1997)

Switzerland           0.50 (1999)               5.78 (1998)          -

Scotland                0.12 (1999)               0.27 (1999)           -

England/Wales      0.12 (1999/00)           0.22 (1999)        0.01 (1999)

Japan                    0.04* (1998)              0.04 (1995)       <0.01 (1997)


Just an example.

The Americans value their constitution and the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment deals with the right to bear arms. Here is the price that ordinary Americans are paying for the privilege

- 8 children a day die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns

- since John F. Kennedy was assinated more Americans have died from gunshot wounds at home than died in all the wars of the 20th century

- Osama bin Laden would need at least nine twin towers like attacks each year to equal what Americans do to themselves every year with guns.

- Murder rates in LA, NY and Chigago were approaching the hightest in the world (30 per 100,000) until moves were made in late 20th century to restrict access to guns to teenagers. (The NRA wants these moves reversed)

If Osama bin Laden had had more sense, instead of launching a terrorist attack, he would simply have provided financial backing to the NRA.

[url=http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/gun_deaths_in_usa.htm]The hard Facts[/url]


People can rant on and on about guns saving lifes but they dont.Period.The are designed for ONE thing and ONE thing only, to kill. The threat of violence can save you if you believe that. Saying a gun saves lives is akin to the USA v USSR during the cold war. We didnt have a war because they both had nukes? No i think not.


Americans were given the right to bear arms for defense of their homeland during the formation of their country.Minute men etc. Why is USA the most violent country in the world right now? Because you are all safe and sound and hunky dory carrying guns? uhu...yeah..riiiiight. Your country is becoming somewhere that others do not want to go to. You are slowly becoming the hot headed bully of the western world.


Carrying guns causes deaths.
2006-09-04 07:01:31
beerface702
Member
+65|6704|las vegas
im thinking of getting a CCW soon. this hood im in now is scary lol

neveda has some great gun laws, compared to most states.

read here

http://www.nsrpa.us/legal/nevlocal.html

i knew a dude who carried a sig on his hip to and from work every day. he worked at UPS.

its perefectly legal to walk around town anywhere with it in plain view, on the hip or nearby on your person.

u gotta be a lil balsy though, or dumb imo though. cops here dont play around

the funny thing about open holster laws. is the exact opposite of it. if caught conceled with out permit you get 1 year in jail here and a 5000 dollor fine=[

also not mentioned in this site, is that u cant put a pistol in your glove box or under your seat in neveda. it must be in plain view in a car. or in the trunk. they may have changed the trunk bit . i think

Last edited by beerface702 (2006-09-04 07:07:21)

2006-09-04 07:29:17
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|6840
300,000 guns are reported stolen each year. If 5% of the US already carry a weapon then muggers are already going to expect each victim to be armed and will act accordingly. Allowing more people to carry guns will simply be giving more guns to criminals.

In the US 3 times more people die from accidental shooting than from lawful shootings. More guns in the hands of more people for longer periods will result in an increase in accidental shootings.
2006-09-04 07:34:20
JG1567JG
Member
+110|6599|United States of America
DarkTongue you know nothing about what the NRA stands for. All the NRA wants is for law abiding citizens to be allowed to carry a gun for self defense.  Washington D.C. has one of the highest murder rates in the U.S. and handguns have been banned there for about 30 years.  Their crime rate in D.C. is in no way going down.
The NRA in no way wants teenagers to have access to guns.  That statement is fucking crazy.

Why don't I see it on the news about these 8 children/day.  You would think that at least a couple would be newsworthy every day.  These children are 19 and sometimes 21 or younger depending on the stats.  Most likely involved in criminal activity.

Did you know that a criminal that gets shot by the police or the victim goes down as a  homicide statistic for guns.

About 3000 people died in the twin towers attack.  Are you saying that guns kill 27,000 people in th states every year?  Some proof please instead of more anti-gun rhetoric.  How much you wanna bet if a few of the passengers or the pilots would have been able to take their guns on those flights that were hijacked then those terrorist attacks would not have happened
2006-09-04 07:43:52
OrangeHound
Busy doing highfalutin adminy stuff ...
+1,335|6660|Washington DC

JG1567JG wrote:

Washington D.C. has one of the highest murder rates in the U.S. and handguns have been banned there for about 30 years.
That is a poor example ... Washington DC is not an isolated region.  It is a city surrounded by large regions (Virginia & Maryland) that permit guns, and guns flow freely throughout.
2006-09-04 07:44:15
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6848
Here ( in the USA ) we have the experience of disarming our citizens,

( usually as a quick cure all panacea from crooked, do nothing, political types trying to hold office by making quick cheap headlines at the cost of any sense of reality. )

It always spells  instant disaster  and skyrocketing crime. Allways

On a Darker note, Nazi Germany, occupied Poland, France and the USSR come to mind and should be argument enough to anyone with even a hint of world history.

Alas some people must take the exact same path again and again expecting completely different results

( because they are so much smarter than their ancestors who suffered through the results  first hand ? )

When the electorate grows weary of crime and tells politicians " Enough is enough allow us to be armed ", there is always a sharp decrease in crime, this has been noted, posted and referenced ad-nauseum.

  ( please stay current )

Training or lack of in government agencies is a different issue entirely.

We in the USA always think of G.B. as a text book example of Law Enforcement done well.

G.B is not littterd with the results of generations of Liberal experiments that have failed and now burden its citizenry.

PS. when England ( 1940s ) wanted Frenchman, Poles and other occupied people to " Throw of their yoke of oppression.

They drooped thousands of cheap pistols from aircraft throughout occupied Europe.

Of course times were different, Germany had their backs to the wall

and the Word was MUST

They couldn't afford to dabble or experiment in silly mindless, Merritless experiments in sociology.

All their decisions had to be steep in Reality, Results and Fact, and of course they won.

Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-09-04 07:44:46)

2006-09-04 07:46:19
JG1567JG
Member
+110|6599|United States of America

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

300,000 guns are reported stolen each year. If 5% of the US already carry a weapon then muggers are already going to expect each victim to be armed and will act accordingly. Allowing more people to carry guns will simply be giving more guns to criminals.

In the US 3 times more people die from accidental shooting than from lawful shootings. More guns in the hands of more people for longer periods will result in an increase in accidental shootings.
More than 3 times more people die from speeding and wrecking than from driving the speed limit.  More cars in the hands of more people for longer periods will result in an increase in accidental wrecks.
2006-09-04 07:49:48
JG1567JG
Member
+110|6599|United States of America

OrangeHound wrote:

JG1567JG wrote:

Washington D.C. has one of the highest murder rates in the U.S. and handguns have been banned there for about 30 years.
That is a poor example ... Washington DC is not an isolated region.  It is a city surrounded by large regions (Virginia & Maryland) that permit guns, and guns flow freely throughout.
Why is it then that in the U.S. the Highest crime rates with guns are in cities where guns are banned.  Oh I know lets blame the surrounding cities and states.  Hell canada blames us for their gun problems.  Gotta blame somebody besides the criminal.
Don't worry someday your second amendment rights will be restored.

Last edited by JG1567JG (2006-09-04 07:53:59)

2006-09-04 07:56:52
jonsimon
Member
+224|6506

JG1567JG wrote:

DarkTongue you know nothing about what the NRA stands for. All the NRA wants is for law abiding citizens to be allowed to carry a gun for self defense.  Washington D.C. has one of the highest murder rates in the U.S. and handguns have been banned there for about 30 years.  Their crime rate in D.C. is in no way going down.
The NRA in no way wants teenagers to have access to guns.  That statement is fucking crazy.

Why don't I see it on the news about these 8 children/day.  You would think that at least a couple would be newsworthy every day.  These children are 19 and sometimes 21 or younger depending on the stats.  Most likely involved in criminal activity.

Did you know that a criminal that gets shot by the police or the victim goes down as a  homicide statistic for guns.

About 3000 people died in the twin towers attack.  Are you saying that guns kill 27,000 people in th states every year?  Some proof please instead of more anti-gun rhetoric.  How much you wanna bet if a few of the passengers or the pilots would have been able to take their guns on those flights that were hijacked then those terrorist attacks would not have happened
Theres nothing special about it because it happens every day. Besides, they're spread out over the whole nation.

You want proof? HOW ABOUT THE STATISTICS HE POSTED THAT YOU CONVENIENTLY IGNORED?

299,647,152/100,000=2996.5*(4.08+6.08+.42)=31,703 deaths by gun each year. Please note that this number is larger than 27,000. Oops. Maybe you should try doing the math before you open your mouth.

How much you wanna bet that if guns were allowed as carryons any whackjob could hijack a plane and take it wherever he wanted? You're making a horrendus fallacy of composition to assume the hijackers wouldn't have guns as well.

Sorry, but you just got owned.

Edit: Links added.

Last edited by jonsimon (2006-09-04 07:59:00)

2006-09-04 07:58:15
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|6840

JG1567JG wrote:

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

300,000 guns are reported stolen each year. If 5% of the US already carry a weapon then muggers are already going to expect each victim to be armed and will act accordingly. Allowing more people to carry guns will simply be giving more guns to criminals.

In the US 3 times more people die from accidental shooting than from lawful shootings. More guns in the hands of more people for longer periods will result in an increase in accidental shootings.
More than 3 times more people die from speeding and wrecking than from driving the speed limit.  More cars in the hands of more people for longer periods will result in an increase in accidental wrecks.
And yet, at least a quarter of adults in the US don't wear a seatbelt all the time. Seriously, there's just no way to help some people.
2006-09-04 08:11:49
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6848
some people love to panic, just let them.
2006-09-04 08:22:39
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|6840

Horseman 77 wrote:

On a Darker note, Nazi Germany, occupied Poland, France and the USSR come to mind and should be argument enough to anyone with even a hint of world history.

Alas some people must take the exact same path again and again expecting completely different results

( because they are so much smarter than their ancestors who suffered through the results  first hand ? )
Exactly. At the time of the second world war I don't think any European country had banned their citizens from owning firearms and what happens? They all got crushed by the Germans. Arming your citizens does absolutely no good against an invading army.

JG1567JG wrote:

About 3000 people died in the twin towers attack.  Are you saying that guns kill 27,000 people in th states every year?  Some proof please instead of more anti-gun rhetoric.  How much you wanna bet if a few of the passengers or the pilots would have been able to take their guns on those flights that were hijacked then those terrorist attacks would not have happened
YES!!!! The number of deaths caused by guns was 29,573 in 2001.

Who wants to bet if you let people take guns on planes then there would be planes being hijacked and blown up every week? Seriously, anyone know how bullet proof the wing of a jet is? Enough to stop a magnum round penetrating the fuel tank?
2006-09-04 08:28:13
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6692|Disaster Free Zone
Why do you americans keep using internal sources for why guns are nessasary, are you that self centred that you dont realise that hundreds of other countries around the world exist and show many times over that having either strict gun laws or banning guns altogether lowers homicides? Hundreads of countries is a much more valid statistical study then 3 cities in which there is still not strict enough gun laws and no border security.

I dont think this whole thing is about 'concealed' guns but guns them selves. Why is this second amendmant so important? It is not only very outdated but also has no bearing on modern day American life. Wasn't the right to bear arms for protection from invading armies? not from your selves?
The Second Amendment states, in its entirety, "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Yes the short term solution may be to arm every law abiding citizen but no doubt as has been seen, these guns will get into the hands of criminals and then the whole cycle keeps going. You must eliminate the problem at the source. Stop the production, sale, use and ownership of all guns (or put VERY strick guidlines down). Then comes the long process of arresting and confiscating all firearms that have not been turned in after these laws come into effect. Will take along time, but the sooner you realise more guns is not a solution, just a cover up, the sooner gun violence will be reduced.
2006-09-04 08:35:41
OrangeHound
Busy doing highfalutin adminy stuff ...
+1,335|6660|Washington DC

JG1567JG wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

JG1567JG wrote:

Washington D.C. has one of the highest murder rates in the U.S. and handguns have been banned there for about 30 years.
That is a poor example ... Washington DC is not an isolated region.  It is a city surrounded by large regions (Virginia & Maryland) that permit guns, and guns flow freely throughout.
Why is it then that in the U.S. the Highest crime rates with guns are in cities where guns are banned.  Oh I know lets blame the surrounding cities and states.  Hell canada blames us for their gun problems.  Gotta blame somebody besides the criminal.
Don't worry someday your second amendment rights will be restored.
Simple.  The laws that ban guns are political responses to an already high crime rate in those cities ... they are "feel good" measures, but largely ineffective at curbing violence.
2006-09-04 09:43:03
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6848

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

At the time of the second world war I don't think any European country had banned their citizens from owning firearms and what happens? They all got crushed by the Germans. Arming your citizens does absolutely no good against an invading army.
WTF ?
not my point at all please try and address the points or leave the issue alone.
2006-09-04 10:16:24
JG1567JG
Member
+110|6599|United States of America

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:

On a Darker note, Nazi Germany, occupied Poland, France and the USSR come to mind and should be argument enough to anyone with even a hint of world history.

Alas some people must take the exact same path again and again expecting completely different results

( because they are so much smarter than their ancestors who suffered through the results  first hand ? )
Exactly. At the time of the second world war I don't think any European country had banned their citizens from owning firearms and what happens? They all got crushed by the Germans. Arming your citizens does absolutely no good against an invading army.

JG1567JG wrote:

About 3000 people died in the twin towers attack.  Are you saying that guns kill 27,000 people in th states every year?  Some proof please instead of more anti-gun rhetoric.  How much you wanna bet if a few of the passengers or the pilots would have been able to take their guns on those flights that were hijacked then those terrorist attacks would not have happened
YES!!!! The number of deaths caused by guns was 29,573 in 2001.

Who wants to bet if you let people take guns on planes then there would be planes being hijacked and blown up every week? Seriously, anyone know how bullet proof the wing of a jet is? Enough to stop a magnum round penetrating the fuel tank?
Just for horsemans defense I think that germany's gun registration that followed up with a gun confiscation was in place before WWII was started.

I wonder how many of those gun deaths were caused by the police shooting a criminal or the law abiding citizen that has his permit shooting the criminal

Here's another one to add to your statistics except the good guy won. I already posted this on the first page of this thread.  Notice in the last sentence of the article that this guys death gets added to the homicide total.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a … 006/NEWS01

Off-topic but, when are they going to ban cigarettes?

Last edited by JG1567JG (2006-09-04 10:20:57)

 

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