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Anfidurl
Use the bumper, that's what its for!
+103|5712|Lexington, Kentucky

PuckMercury wrote:

The hardships and trials which were endured by the generations before ours (70 and above) were essential to the forging of their character.  The manner and morality with which the previous generation approached each and every problem before it were purely a function of the trials which they endured.

We have it too easy.

We have not had the basic trials which were faced by those before us.  In the absense of any real, obvious, day to day plight, we seek it out elsewhere in an attempt to identify with it and internalize it as our own.  This ends in hollow defeat and greater gulfs in understanding as the effort to identify is not in earnest, but in vain.  I speak of course of what is largely recognized as "civilized" portions of the world such as the major areas of Europe, the Americas, some of Asia and Australia

We have no day to day struggle facing us so we build up trite occurances to mammoth proportions in order to manufacture the strife and us vs. them mentality which solidified those before us to an iron resolve.  I honestly don't think anything else can happen on this planet to effectively and genuinely reproduce that atmosphere.  I find this troubling and quite sad.

We ride on the coat tails of those before us and leave rags as a vessel for those behind us.  I do not pretend those before us were without fault, but the majority of the mistakes made were a function of ignorance and innocense.  The mistakes we willfully propogate fly in the face of knowledge and good sense.

Look at your grandparents and learn from them.
Problem is, we DO have day to day challenges, you just in your rosy-glasses view of the past think that the modern ones are somehow below you. We may not be under any one obvious plight, but just hundreds of "micro-plights". Granted, I'm about as PO'd about this 'modern' society as you, but it's because I didn't choose it and there is no escape from it. It's forced on us this way, like it or lump it.
The_Mob_Returns
Member
+72|5841|Indianapolis, IN

Anfidurl wrote:

Problem is, we DO have day to day challenges, you just in your rosy-glasses view of the past think that the modern ones are somehow below you. We may not be under any one obvious plight, but just hundreds of "micro-plights". Granted, I'm about as PO'd about this 'modern' society as you, but it's because I didn't choose it and there is no escape from it. It's forced on us this way, like it or lump it.
The problems we face today are not quite as formiddable as they were then in my opinion.

Edit: missed a word.

Last edited by The_Mob_Returns (2006-07-25 18:33:45)

spastic bullet
would like to know if you are on crack
+77|5660|vancouver

PuckMercury wrote:

<squints to read forum title>  ^^^^

"Retarded ... "

Oh, now I get it.

I'll freely admit I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but seriously.  I don't have the first clue what this thread is about.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|5826|67.222.138.85

The_Mob_Returns wrote:

Okay, Back on topic to the original post.

That was an excellant post, puck.  I was just talking about this same sort of idea with a friend the other day.  And we agreed that if America, or most of the rest of the world for that matter, were faced with a terrible tragedy that we would not know how to cope with it.  Americans, I speak from this perspective because I am one, look for the easy way out of every situation so if push comes to shove, I do not believe America would be ready.  But the small things that occur that are tragic slowly help, not that they are good, lead us to a state of more awareness.  9/11 would be an example of a tragic event leading us to learn more about our weaknesses and to push forward to a state where we can deal with hardships better.  Although, we have not had anything since, thankfully, so we are slowly edging back into a state of not caring. 
It was the alertness to the situations around that generation that prompted them to better understand how to cope with those times.  We do not have that awareness now and that will cost us down the road.

Anyways, great post again puck, this is just my two cents worth.

TMR
I generally agree, though I think that there are many Americans that would know what to do. The problem is a percentage of the public that just doesn't get it, namely the people that pulled us out of Vietnam and loudly complain about the Gulf Wars. I'm not saying there isn't limited truth in some of their argument, but 99.99% of the time they don't understand the big picture or know what the hell is really going on. I think the struggle would be between these two groups, though I think if the tragedy was great enough, (nuke New York or something) then the protestors would shut up, or all the reasonable people wouldn't care anymore, and we would get the ball rolling. Scary thought though, if it was actually put to the test.
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|5647|Portland, OR USA

spastic bullet wrote:

PuckMercury wrote:

<squints to read forum title>  ^^^^

"Retarded ... "

Oh, now I get it.

I'll freely admit I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but seriously.  I don't have the first clue what this thread is about.
just meant to address the nameless faceless etherial whatever we seem to be continually searching for.  We miss the tree in the forest sometimes.

I think our society is going to hell because we have had things handed to us and therefore do not truly appreciate them or regard them with the respect and deference they are do.  There really wasn't a question per se, any more than, "What is the Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything" is a question.

More something I've thought for a while and thought someone else might appreciate or benefit from hearing.  If not, I suppose I owe you 1 minute of your life back.  I might one day go as high as 5, but I really don't know what that would do to you.  So please, be honest - and remember, this is for posterity.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I generally agree, though I think that there are many Americans that would know what to do. The problem is a percentage of the public that just doesn't get it, namely the people that pulled us out of Vietnam and loudly complain about the Gulf Wars. I'm not saying there isn't limited truth in some of their argument, but 99.99% of the time they don't understand the big picture or know what the hell is really going on. I think the struggle would be between these two groups, though I think if the tragedy was great enough, (nuke New York or something) then the protestors would shut up, or all the reasonable people wouldn't care anymore, and we would get the ball rolling. Scary thought though, if it was actually put to the test.
I have truly lost all faith in our society's ability to galvanize against anything regardless of how heinous it may be.  I completely agree that there are many among us with the knowledge and drive to do what needs to be and should be done, and with the due respect needed for important decisions.

However, there is too large a tide of ... well ... bullshit for lack of a better word (I used up all my verbiage on that original post I suppose.  I'm "winded" ;-)  ) which moves against such reasonable intelligent individuals and they are implanted in too powerful and key positions to easily be sidestepped.

Last edited by PuckMercury (2006-07-24 18:25:09)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|5649|Global Command
Which are always valued TMR 
Spumantiii
pistolero
+147|5802|Canada

Anfidurl wrote:

Problem is, we DO have day to day challenges, you just in your rosy-glasses view of the past think that the modern ones are somehow below you. We may not be under any one obvious plight, but just hundreds of "micro-plights". Granted, I'm about as PO'd about this 'modern' society as you, but it's because I didn't choose it and there is no escape from it. It's forced on us this way, like it or lump it.
they're different challenges, fed to people in most cases by media, and usually financial issues.  Always financial issues.  Even moral issues come back to and get decided based on financial issues.  The problems of the past seem more based on attitude, in the wars it was a good/evil and be productive for your brothers in arms type of thing and then the cold war which fueled growth in the US until not long ago.  Those were more ideological and moral issues and the threat of nuclear weapons loomed.  I think the principle difference between now and then is the lack of a significant 'them' to drive the North American economy and offer a scale for moral issues.  The same complacency, corruption, and 'dismissive awareness' is what brough a slow end to the Romans (among other issues), society changes bring about abrupt other changes eventually.
Spumantiii
pistolero
+147|5802|Canada

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

The_Mob_Returns wrote:

Okay, Back on topic to the original post.

That was an excellant post, puck.  I was just talking about this same sort of idea with a friend the other day.  And we agreed that if America, or most of the rest of the world for that matter, were faced with a terrible tragedy that we would not know how to cope with it.  Americans, I speak from this perspective because I am one, look for the easy way out of every situation so if push comes to shove, I do not believe America would be ready.  But the small things that occur that are tragic slowly help, not that they are good, lead us to a state of more awareness.  9/11 would be an example of a tragic event leading us to learn more about our weaknesses and to push forward to a state where we can deal with hardships better.  Although, we have not had anything since, thankfully, so we are slowly edging back into a state of not caring. 
It was the alertness to the situations around that generation that prompted them to better understand how to cope with those times.  We do not have that awareness now and that will cost us down the road.

Anyways, great post again puck, this is just my two cents worth.

TMR
I generally agree, though I think that there are many Americans that would know what to do. The problem is a percentage of the public that just doesn't get it, namely the people that pulled us out of Vietnam and loudly complain about the Gulf Wars. I'm not saying there isn't limited truth in some of their argument, but 99.99% of the time they don't understand the big picture or know what the hell is really going on. I think the struggle would be between these two groups, though I think if the tragedy was great enough, (nuke New York or something) then the protestors would shut up, or all the reasonable people wouldn't care anymore, and we would get the ball rolling. Scary thought though, if it was actually put to the test.
I'd have to say that of  the world's most irrational people  99% of them will be the first ones to check out if that happened.  There would always be one, or maybe two of them left hiding in a cave somewhere. 
(is this a left right thing you're talking about?)  I'd hate to think that anyone who agrees with this problem also thinks it's restricted to one group.  Everyone is a victim of it, nobody would be ready for a disaster, not even the military, not even Mossad, if a social disaster happened on a scale like the one that was suggested.

When such a disaster happens and we all have to go back to working together, guess who'll be pretty useless, only the ones out for their own good

Last edited by Spumantiii (2006-07-24 18:36:14)

spastic bullet
would like to know if you are on crack
+77|5660|vancouver

PuckMercury wrote:

spastic bullet wrote:

I'll freely admit I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but seriously.  I don't have the first clue what this thread is about.
just meant to address the nameless faceless etherial whatever we seem to be continually searching for.  We miss the tree in the forest sometimes.

I think our society is going to hell because we have had things handed to us and therefore do not truly appreciate them or regard them with the respect and deference they are do.  There really wasn't a question per se, any more than, "What is the Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything" is a question.
I'm gonna have to beg to differ on a lot of that.

First off, "we" is a lot of people.  Maybe I'm just autistic, but I often have a hard time determining whether whoever says it means "all humans", "me and my ballsack", or some point in between.  I try to take my cue from the surrounding text, but it still eludes me, mostly.  Again, maybe that's just me.

Second, "our society is going to hell" is an odd follow-up to "we've never had it so easy", if you don't mind me saying so.  Hardship isn't very hard to find if you know where to look.

Third, "the meaning of life" is a topic so humungously complex and manifold, I have a hard time believing "we have it too easy" gets anywhere near addressing the core of the issue, whatever anybody perceives that to be.

All this is not to say I don't appreciate the spirit of your post, now that I have a better sense of what that is.  I do.  But I don't agree with much that's been said in response, and I would even go so far as to say people seem to be agreeing without necessarily even talking about the same things.  Another day in Debate and Serious Talk, in other words. 

Last edited by spastic bullet (2006-07-24 18:45:03)

GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|5763
the world is dark and painful se we gotto eat a bowl full of shit and call it spaghetti, because there is no right or wrong.


the people that earn their living from making bullets and bombs also go home and feed their babies and buy their puppies
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|5826|67.222.138.85

PuckMercury wrote:

spastic bullet wrote:

PuckMercury wrote:

<squints to read forum title>  ^^^^

"Retarded ... "

Oh, now I get it.

I'll freely admit I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but seriously.  I don't have the first clue what this thread is about.
just meant to address the nameless faceless etherial whatever we seem to be continually searching for.  We miss the tree in the forest sometimes.

I think our society is going to hell because we have had things handed to us and therefore do not truly appreciate them or regard them with the respect and deference they are do.  There really wasn't a question per se, any more than, "What is the Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything" is a question.

More something I've thought for a while and thought someone else might appreciate or benefit from hearing.  If not, I suppose I owe you 1 minute of your life back.  I might one day go as high as 5, but I really don't know what that would do to you.  So please, be honest - and remember, this is for posterity.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I generally agree, though I think that there are many Americans that would know what to do. The problem is a percentage of the public that just doesn't get it, namely the people that pulled us out of Vietnam and loudly complain about the Gulf Wars. I'm not saying there isn't limited truth in some of their argument, but 99.99% of the time they don't understand the big picture or know what the hell is really going on. I think the struggle would be between these two groups, though I think if the tragedy was great enough, (nuke New York or something) then the protestors would shut up, or all the reasonable people wouldn't care anymore, and we would get the ball rolling. Scary thought though, if it was actually put to the test.
I have truly lost all faith in our society's ability to galvanize against anything regardless of how heinous it may be.  I completely agree that there are many among us with the knowledge and drive to do what needs to be and should be done, and with the due respect needed for important decisions.

However, there is too large a tide of ... well ... bullshit for lack of a better word (I used up all my verbiage on that original post I suppose.  I'm "winded" ;-)  ) which moves against such reasonable intelligent individuals and they are implanted in too powerful and key positions to easily be sidestepped.
Well, I have to admit that politicians aren't the most sane among us, but I think that in a dire time they would have to do the reasonable thing, if only to keep their power. I believe in our right to bear arms, and I think if something truly heinous happened and our government didn't respond, there would be a rebellion on some level. I can't see something like a WMD attack, or an invasion happening without stirring some major response, but perhaps that's just the optimist in me.

And I would say "bullshit" fits the bill pretty well.
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|5647|Portland, OR USA
I realize what you're saying, but will have to respectfully disagree.  I believe the ease with which we have inherited and realized all which we now enjoy is the core issue behind our complete and total lack of appreciation for it.

While I absolutely agree that hardship is not hard to find if you look for it, that is rather the key there - having to look for it.  This is a point I tried to address when I attempted to limit the scope of what I was talking about to certain areas of the world to try and more easily enumerate the populous I was speaking of.

In countries too numerous to mention the exact struggles which galvonized previous generations of America's citizens for instance are now raging, or entirely new and different situations equal in significance.

The meaning of life wasn't really directly addressed in the post, though alluded to for those who would appreciate it.  The answer to which I speak is the answer to what is fundamentally wrong with society as I view it, which in a very easy way could be contrued to be the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything.  I suppose in the end it was intentionally vague to pique interest to look inside to what the thread had to offer.  It worked it seems.

You needn't beg to differ so long as it is in the nature with which you differed just now.  You're right, this is Debate and Serious talk, and I always welcome just that.  Despite my firm conviction in what I posted as a rather radical and solid truth, I respect differing viewpoints to further education and understanding, just not idiotic ramblings or flaming of the poster.

EDIT:  Neither of which you have engaged in

FURTHER EDIT:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I believe in our right to bear arms, and I think if something truly heinous happened and our government didn't respond, there would be a rebellion on some level. I can't see something like a WMD attack, or an invasion happening without stirring some major response, but perhaps that's just the optimist in me.
I'm the last guy I'd expect to cite 9/11, but hopefully I can pull it off without sounding too pretentious or like a "ditto-head"

It happened, we solidified for like 3 months, then factioned off to disagree about how to proceed.  To quote Monty Python, "This calls for IMMEDIATE discussion!!!"

We directed all the energy, passion, and fervor proportional to such an event at eachother and how each group wasn't doing the right thing rather than on any solution or effort to address the actual problem.  I'm not saying I have a solution by ANY means, but I think it was a fairly successful breakdown and failure to capitalize on the moment.

Last edited by PuckMercury (2006-07-24 19:00:09)

Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|5826|67.222.138.85

PuckMercury wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I believe in our right to bear arms, and I think if something truly heinous happened and our government didn't respond, there would be a rebellion on some level. I can't see something like a WMD attack, or an invasion happening without stirring some major response, but perhaps that's just the optimist in me.
I'm the last guy I'd expect to cite 9/11, but hopefully I can pull it off without sounding too pretentious or like a "ditto-head"

It happened, we solidified for like 3 months, then factioned off to disagree about how to proceed.  To quote Monty Python, "This calls for IMMEDIATE discussion!!!"

We directed all the energy, passion, and fervor proportional to such an event at eachother and how each group wasn't doing the right thing rather than on any solution or effort to address the actual problem.  I'm not saying I have a solution by ANY means, but I think it was a fairly successful breakdown and failure to capitalize on the moment.
Actually, I think 9/11 is a very pertinent reference in this situation, and I highly recommend the book America's Secret War, by George Friedman on the subject.

I do agree with you, but I think something on the level of an invasion would stir more than what 9/11 did. Take for example Pearl Harbor. In that case the attack was obvious, using conventional warfare, from a specific country that could be attacked and defeated. The objective was clear, and the public had a goal to band behind.

9/11, on the other hand, was a very unconventional attack, unlike any ever seen, against an enemy that couldn't easily be identified or brought down. The public could not easily correlate 9/11 to Iraq, or Afghanistan for that matter, mostly because they can't be easily correlated.

If a nation attacked, I think there would be a more obvious goal and the public would be able to see the need more easily. Many people would be willing to jump in a car and drive to the front line if the need arose, and I don't think people would discuss anything but the battle plan.

I think ignorance is the biggest problem with today's generation, both with the original topic and with what's going on in the world. I can't tell you how many people in my high school will say they hate Bush, preach it, and then when confronted as to the reason can't give a well thought out, reasonable response. I have no problem disagreeing with someone that has a valid point of view, but I can't stand people brainwashed by our party system.

Sorry I can't make my posts as eloquent as yours, I don't have that level of vocabulary. :P
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|5647|Portland, OR USA
rofl

What you may lack in eloquence you make up for in substance.  All very good points and very well put.

I used to think learning new words would help me communicate.  Then I realized that very few people knew the words I then chose to use .. which rather defeated the purpose in the first place.

I agree that 9/11 and Pearl Harbor were entirely different.  One was a state sanctioned attack, the other was a subversive act of terror by a group hiding behind cloak and dagger.  There IS no clear enemy, and that IS a large part of the problem.

No matter what anyone says, we do our best in the face of adversary.  But more than these global struggles, merely the more mundane trials and tribulations such as the depression, rampant McCarthyism, and generally participating in and contributing to the industrial awakenings of a sleeping giant.  We DON'T know what it took to build this place, and we're doing a piss poor job as stewards.

I get back to a fundamental aspect of my post which is basic values and morals.  We just seem ... underdeveloped I suppose is the best way to put it.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,937|5891|USA

OP:

This view is invalid in both an optimistic and pessimistic fashion. Life in the "civilized world" has its own share of abject poverty, and is thus not always the cake you seem to think it is, nor are people of means always as depressed as you seem to think they must be. Nor are members of the older generations always shining examples of how to live. I think it's awful that some people go around telling others on a day-to-day basis how inferior they are to and how easy their life is compared to that of older peoples'.

While I advocate basic respect to elders on general principles, I reject the notion that they are inherently superior based on their life experiences.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-07-24 23:11:32)

Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|5826|67.222.138.85

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

OP:

This view is invalid in both an optimistic and pessimistic fashion. Life in the "civilized world" has its own share of abject poverty, and is thus not always the cake you seem to think it is, nor are people of means always as depressed as you seem to think they must be. Nor are members of the older generations always shining examples of how to live. I think it's awful that some people go around telling others on a day-to-day basis how inferior they are to and how easy their life is compared to that of older peoples'.

While I advocate basic respect to elders on general principles, I reject the notion that they are inherently superior based on their life experiences.
Not that they are superior individually, but as a whole they did a helluva lot better job dealing with their problems. Many today have the same resilience, but much of what we do has been taken over by beaurocracy and politics. They didn't particularly care what the world thought about them, they thought about what was right.

puckmercury wrote:

I get back to a fundamental aspect of my post which is basic values and morals.  We just seem ... underdeveloped I suppose is the best way to put it.
I agree, it's like we are a bunch of children when it comes to large matters, waiting for someone with more experience to step in and help us or blindly blundering forth.
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|5854|California
We live in the world of Ikea and Walmart, Starbucks and the like.

Modern challengs (to quote George Carlin):

Banana Republic ran out of khakis
Starbucks ran out of latte's
Hootie and the Blowfish broke up?!?!?! oh noezurz!!on!eleven!

Seriously, what problems do we have that we are actually doing something about? This is the "spinning our wheels" generation.

Drive by a junior high school or high school come next school year. Look at the kids walking into the school. Then realize, we are doomed. America will not survive because these kids nowadays, believe they are the generation of entitlement.

Everything needs to be handed to them, why work when you can piss and moan until you get what you want. Don't like something? Protest (piss and moan) until you get what you want.

-There is no pride. The last great vestige of democracy and freedom is slowly being eroded into a third world country. Hard work and determination mean nothing. Bit by bit, it slips away, until you wake up one day, and realize.... "I'm not in America any more"-
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|5826|67.222.138.85

Erkut.hv wrote:

We live in the world of Ikea and Walmart, Starbucks and the like.

Modern challengs (to quote George Carlin):

Banana Republic ran out of khakis
Starbucks ran out of latte's
Hootie and the Blowfish broke up?!?!?! oh noezurz!!on!eleven!

Seriously, what problems do we have that we are actually doing something about? This is the "spinning our wheels" generation.

Drive by a junior high school or high school come next school year. Look at the kids walking into the school. Then realize, we are doomed. America will not survive because these kids nowadays, believe they are the generation of entitlement.

Everything needs to be handed to them, why work when you can piss and moan until you get what you want. Don't like something? Protest (piss and moan) until you get what you want.

-There is no pride. The last great vestige of democracy and freedom is slowly being eroded into a third world country. Hard work and determination mean nothing. Bit by bit, it slips away, until you wake up one day, and realize.... "I'm not in America any more"-
It's sad how much truth there is in your post.

Being in high school, seeing what you're talking about, and I have to say it applies to far too many people. Wanting to work for nothing, not wanting an education that so may others would die for, expecting for things to be done with minimal effort on their part.

Though in oppostition to this, there are some that still have strong morals and values, but I doubt as many as there were 50 years ago. The question is, are there still enough for this country to be able to function? There are still some left, but they are a dying breed.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|5957
Time for bubalo to check in
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|5809|Tampa Bay Florida

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

We live in the world of Ikea and Walmart, Starbucks and the like.

Modern challengs (to quote George Carlin):

Banana Republic ran out of khakis
Starbucks ran out of latte's
Hootie and the Blowfish broke up?!?!?! oh noezurz!!on!eleven!

Seriously, what problems do we have that we are actually doing something about? This is the "spinning our wheels" generation.

Drive by a junior high school or high school come next school year. Look at the kids walking into the school. Then realize, we are doomed. America will not survive because these kids nowadays, believe they are the generation of entitlement.

Everything needs to be handed to them, why work when you can piss and moan until you get what you want. Don't like something? Protest (piss and moan) until you get what you want.

-There is no pride. The last great vestige of democracy and freedom is slowly being eroded into a third world country. Hard work and determination mean nothing. Bit by bit, it slips away, until you wake up one day, and realize.... "I'm not in America any more"-
It's sad how much truth there is in your post.

Being in high school, seeing what you're talking about, and I have to say it applies to far too many people. Wanting to work for nothing, not wanting an education that so may others would die for, expecting for things to be done with minimal effort on their part.

Though in oppostition to this, there are some that still have strong morals and values, but I doubt as many as there were 50 years ago. The question is, are there still enough for this country to be able to function? There are still some left, but they are a dying breed.
I agree, I sometimes wonder WTF my classmates are thinking.  Whenever the issue of politics or world history comes up, almost everyone turns into a little care-free 5 year old with no grasp of anything.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|5826|67.222.138.85
That reminds me of a time when some people in my class were talking about sueing someone who scratched their car, small, they couldn't prove who it was, in a public parking lot. I couldn't stop thinking ok have fun with that.
Cactusfist
Pusher of sausages Down Hallways
+26|5687
My last grandparent died when i was 4. I suck.

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