BF2S Forums for you catholics,jews w/e if u believe in god read this

Skruples wrote:

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Do you not understand how statistics are gathered?  They ask samples of the population and then run the numbers.  I gave you one sample.  You will find it is the same across the board.  And I challenged you to ask another sample to prove me wrong.  But again, truth is not what you're after.

I would say that I have a better understanding of statistics than you do, based on your gross generalizations. If YOU had any idea, you would see that by virtue of you working in a university (which I assume you do, based on one of your previous posts), you are disproving your notion that all universities are full of liberal atheists. Why? Because there is at least one christian republican working in a university, and that's you. Thus, not everyone who works in a university is liberal or atheist. You see the logic there? Furthermore, if you understood the gathering of statistics, you would know that taking a sample of one University department will not get you results representative of the entire nations university system. And finally, you did not give me a sample of anything but your opinion, and I would definitely not consider that reliable statistical evidence of what you were trying to prove.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Now your doing circular reasoning again. 
ZPE = not proven
the universe = not proven to be a closed system
But yet, thermodynamics can't be used because the universe isn't "subject to the laws of thermodynamics" because the universe is not a closed system.

I said the laws of thermodynamics, as we understand them clearly do not apply to the universe as we understand it. Bear with me here, I'll make it simple. There is alot of stuff in the universe. At some point, there was no stuff, so it would appear that all this stuff came from nowhere. This violates the laws of thermodynamics. Now unless we get into some pretty crazy physics, which involve the fourth dimension and 'time' as a form of energy, this cannot be explained. Now, do you see why applying the laws of thermodynamics to everything does not work?

What the laws of thermodynamics DO apply to is closed systems that can be observed and measured in their entirety. Like if you take a box, and put some warm air in it. The air will cool over time, because the overall energy is decreasing.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

My reasoning is flawless?  Try, 'I don't believe in God so I make up an embryonic drawing to disprove that God exists by showing all species are similar at birth'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo_drawings
"It has been suggested that Haeckel deliberately "fudged" his drawings in order to de-emphasize the differences, thus providing better evidence for his arguments."

So your argument can go both ways, skruples.  But then again, truth is not what you're after.

For the last time, none of us are trying to disprove the existence of God. It is you that has somehow linked evolution with God, when they are not mutually exclusive ideas. You will find that there are millions of Americans that can accomodate both God and the theory of evolution into their beliefs.

I never said that unversities only employ liberals.  The article I gave showed that would be a lie and the fact that I work for one and not a liberal would disprove that too.  Why do you put words in my mouth?  And why come up with a baseless argument?

Actually, if the sample represents the whole then yes you can use it when referring to your data.  I know professors at several unversities who I had classes with and are not Christian and are liberal and they say the same thing.  In fact, they say "you're a lone man of a dieing breed.  It's time to convert."  Although a joke, the comment is very scary when you look at it and what a university is supposed to teach. 
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So, you're saying thermodynamics cannot be used to explain how the universe came about?  Then what explanation is given when the question of how did everything get there to begin with and 'evolve' to what it is today?
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The OP stated that with all the facts today "What if God or whoever you believe in isnt real what if u die u die thats it, its over no nothing for the rest of eternity".  I'd say that is in fact trying to disprove God's existence.  Your quotes:
"There is absolutely no proof that God or any other supernatural entity exists, though my local clergy keep insisting there is."
"Funny how religion is mostly story and myth of what is almost certainly not true, and absolutely cannot be proven."

I didn't read them all but those are 2 I found while glancing over them.

herrr_smity wrote:

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

[Because evolution as stated by its theory tries to disprove God in how we got here.  If we evolved from single cell organisms then how are we created in His image?

I'm just gonna state the obvious WE where not made in his image.
the idea of god as a supreme being is madness, that makes us pawns in a sick game.

So if you follow a belief that one was perpetrated through exaggeration or deception, what does that make you?

Last edited by wannabe_tank_whore (2006-03-31 08:24:27)

herrr_smity wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

herrr_smity wrote:

I'm just gonna state the obvious WE where not made in his image.
the idea of god as a supreme being is madness, that makes us pawns in a sick game.

I think the fact we evolvd a concscience and cognitive thought by accident is madness. I like how randomness created something so perfect (the Earth and everything in it) is madness.

The fact that we were given conscioussness and the ability to distinguish right from wrong, as opposed to just instincts, develop a written language, etc.... all on accident, is madness to me.

Of course, I have no qualms telling all of your I am certifiably insane.

whats perfect.

Climate, ability to sustain life, the food chain. I could go on and on. Everything randomly happened so perfectly to allow us to be here. I think it's awesome that nothing commanded it to be this way, it sort of just.... happened.

the world is not a perfect place, we live on a planet that has a history of nearly wiping out all life several times.
http://park.org/Canada/Museum/extinctio … cmenu.html

herrr_smity wrote:

the world is not a perfect place, we live on a planet that has a history of nearly wiping out all life several times.
http://park.org/Canada/Museum/extinctio … cmenu.html

The fact you are here represents the fact that everything fell into place. Randomly, of course.

Erkut.hv wrote:

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

I think the fact we evolvd a concscience and cognitive thought by accident is madness. I like how randomness created something so perfect (the Earth and everything in it) is madness.

The fact that we were given conscioussness and the ability to distinguish right from wrong, as opposed to just instincts, develop a written language, etc.... all on accident, is madness to me.

I agree 100%. 

The ability to love someone as well.  Not just take care of your flesh and blood but fall in love with another person.

Well, apparently, it's all chemical. Electrical impulses and chemicals dictate everything you do. Hey... that means I could kil someone, and blame it on a chemical. My brain chemistry is whacked, your honor. I blame evolution.

then i can kill someone and blame GOD he made me do it

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

The OP stated that with all the facts today "What if God or whoever you believe in isnt real what if u die u die thats it, its over no nothing for the rest of eternity".  I'd say that is in fact trying to disprove God's existence.  Your quotes:

Skruples wrote:

There is absolutely no proof that God or any other supernatural entity exists, though my local clergy keep insisting there is.

Skruples wrote:

Funny how religion is mostly story and myth of what is almost certainly not true, and absolutely cannot be proven.

I didn't read them all but those are 2 I found while glancing over them.

A: There is no proof that God exists, and I stand by that. That does not mean that God does not exist, but it does mean I'm not about to go running off to my local church in search of absolution. I also wrote:

Skruples wrote:

If you're trying to imply that my mind is closed, I would disagree with you. I am an agnostic, I have never said that God did not exist, (and if I did, somewhere, then I made an error). I said that God most likely does not exist, based simply on the utter lack of evidence supporting His existence. However, there is also absolutely no evidence to disprove His existence, so I'm in the middle.

I also find it amusing being called close minded by a man who believes in the story of Noah as literally true, but evolution is just too crazy. I hope you dont teach science at that university of yours.


B: I make a distinction between God and religion, the former being a supernatural entity, and the latter being the belief structures built up around the former. Whether or not God is real is irrelevant when looking at certain parts of the bible (such as Genesis which is certainly not literally true), which are an attempt to explain the existence of a world too complex for the writers to understand.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

I never said that unversities only employ liberals.  The article I gave showed that would be a lie and the fact that I work for one and not a liberal would disprove that too.  Why do you put words in my mouth?  And why come up with a baseless argument?

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Read it again, "universities are quite liberal and most liberals don't believe in God."  Show me a bleeding heart that believes in the Christian God.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Skruples wrote:

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

I said Christian God.  In the department where I work, I'm the lone Christian where none of my colleagues are republican or believe in the Christian God. 

Go to your local University and venture to the Biology, English, or Math department and ask away.

I see. So in the department you work in, you're the only god fearing republican, therefore everywhere in the country must be the same. Your reasoning is flawless.

As for asking my local professors, why should I? Their faith or lack thereof has no bearing on me, or you for that matter.

Do you not understand how statistics are gathered?  They ask samples of the population and then run the numbers.  I gave you one sample.  You will find it is the same across the board.  And I challenged you to ask another sample to prove me wrong.  But again, truth is not what you're after.

Now maybe I misunderstood you, but it sure seems like you were making a case for universities being chock full of liberals, who by your definition are almost entirely atheist. I also hope you dont teach sociology at your university.

Speaking of baseless arguments, wheres that evidence that most liberals dont believe in God? I'm still waiting on that. And before you say it, no, "I dont know any" does not count as evidence.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Because evolution as stated by its theory tries to disprove God in how we got here.  If we evolved from single cell organisms then how are we created in His image?

That wasnt directed at me, but I'll take it anyway. God certainly did not create the Earth in 6 days, nor did he do so only a few thousand years ago. This is proven fact. You may quibble with how accurate the data is regarding the age of the Earth or Universe, but i doubt the data is off by a factor of 1.6 million. This means the creationist story is false... Does this disprove the existence of God? No. Neither does the theory of evolution, unless you choose to believe it does. Besides which, how do YOU know what God looks like. Maybe He looks like a single celled organism.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

I have faith in God and Christ.  You have faith that what people are telling you is true.  But one poster is right... we will all be certain one day.

I find this quite amusing as well. Where did your faith in God and Christ come from. Did you wake up one day and have an epiphany? Did the light of God shine down upon you and bask you in His glory? Or did you go to church as a child, and a priest told you that the stuff in this book called the Bible was true, and you believed it? Don't use "you only believe this stuff because someone told you so" as an argument, it means very little; Organized religion is little more than a societal meme.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

So, you're saying thermodynamics cannot be used to explain how the universe came about?  Then what explanation is given when the question of how did everything get there to begin with and 'evolve' to what it is today?

Thermodynamics never was used to explain how the Universe came into existence. As I understand it, Thermodynamics is used to explain the behavior of energy and entropy in closed systems, not to explain the existence of said energy to begin with. And as I've mentioned previously, noone can say for certain how the universe was created, but the theories are out there. Go ask a physics professor, they almost certainly know more than I on the subject.

A scientific mind cannot comprehend God and a Godly mind has no use for science.

One thing is certain too, that the Bible is not to be interpreted soley by an individual and is not THE basis of Christianity.  It certainly is a chief cornerstone to it, but the Church existed long before the bible.  So, do not look on the Bible as "Sola Scriptura" as it is not the final word.  I am not espousing disbelief, but don't try to prove God's existence soley through the Bible.  If you are truly searching for faith, then you have to do more than read... It is certainly not a system of just saying, "believe what I say and don't ask questions". 
As for science, the only thing it can prove is our limits. 
There are no easy answers and we are all free to chose our beliefs.  For those that believe in God, there is hope, for those that do not believe, there is no hope... Nothing can be settled on a platform like this.  It is obvious there are believers and non-believers.  The only success here will be mutual frustration.

Erkut.hv wrote:

herrr_smity wrote:

the world is not a perfect place, we live on a planet that has a history of nearly wiping out all life several times.
http://park.org/Canada/Museum/extinctio … cmenu.html

The fact you are here represents the fact that everything fell into place. Randomly, of course.

For us, you mean.

I would hardly say that everything fell in place, say, for the dodo.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Spark wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

Gods real. Its a proven fact to millions of people all around the world. Jesus Christ was real, all the places he went were real, and people saw him to miracles. Earth is too perfect to have happened by chance. Things like our atmosphere, position in our galaxy, the star we are orbiting, and ores are perfect. Berkeley geologist George Brimhall wrote       
" The creation of ores and their placement close to the Earths surface  are the result of much more than simple geologic chance. Only an exact series of physical and chemical events, occuring in the right environment and sequence and followed by certain climatic conditions, can give rise to a high concentration of these compounds so crucial to the development of civilization and technoloy."

Yet another person who thinks the universe ends at pluto and the rest is painted on.

You have ABSOLUTELY no idea how likely a planet like ours was in the universe.

Life could be as close as 200ly.

George Brimhalls not an idiot who is guessing about where the universe ends, hes a geolgist who has studied the earth for years and knows that stuff for fact.

Jamdude, you fail to realize that anyone/anything opposing someone's viewpoint is an idiot.  Especially when facts are presented.

This quote by George Brimhalls does not prove nor disprove the existence of God.  He is simply stating that it is extreme chance that all these minerals and ores happen to be close enough for humans to harvest them.  It would take extreme chance for all elements in the universe to come together and create life on earth as we know it, but chance alone doesn't prove/disprove anything.  Maybe there is more to the quote than you posted, but your arguments based on this little quote are without merit.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-04-05 11:53:38)

well said, didn't really have the time to respond in such a manner.  Your reasoning in regards to Brimhalls statement is sound.  Basically, it is extreme chance that the earth was created and developed the way it has.  And this extreme chance would be what established us as lifeforms the ability to exist from a non-theistic point of view.  Bottom line, there is no evidence to prove/disprove God exists. All it will be until evidence shows otherwise is faith.  I personally refuse to submit my life to someone/thing I cannot prove to exist.  I do not have faith in God, I have faith in myself, and for me that is all I need.  If you feel you need faith in God, fine.  Just don't tell me that if I don't have that faith I am an idiot/antichrist/bad person.