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2005-10-12 13:39:50
beeng
Get C4, here!
+66|7059

Theres one thing I've learned from my years on this planet.
Never talk/debate/argue about politics/religion.  No one ever wins and you'll be old and dead before you come to a conclusion
2005-10-12 13:55:40
Ryan_Mercury
"It's Recharging!"
+19|7093
I agree with the above post. I'm neither, rather, independant. All politicans are corrupt. You can't say they're not, because their the best liars in the world.

Last edited by Ryan_Mercury (2005-10-12 14:03:33)

2005-10-13 06:12:39
karto
I keed :P
+0|7047

beeng wrote:

Theres one thing I've learned from my years on this planet.
Never talk/debate/argue about politics/religion.  No one ever wins and you'll be old and dead before you come to a conclusion
Debating politics to "win" is pointless, but debating politics to reach a common ground isn't pointless at all.
I think it depends how you view politics - is it a matter of "red corner vs. blue corner - FIGHT!" (which is how it is mostly portrayed in the media) or is it a matter of "we have a problem, how do we solve it?".

When trying to change things, solve problems, it is always easier when working together, but to do that you need to 1) agree on what the problem is and 2) agree on the solution. You can't do that without debate.
So - as I see it, you must be prepared to debate with people who do not agree with you if you intend to change anything, and you must often be prepared to compromise (or have everyone work in different directions at once, which tends to give worse results than working together in a direction that everyone likes 80%).


Of course debating with random people on the internet with no intention of doing anything more about it, changes the rules quite a bit - and has a tendency to be the written equivalent of a deathmatch.

EDIT: Sorry. Feel free to delete or move my post.

Last edited by karto (2005-10-14 04:58:44)

2005-10-13 08:26:59
bluehavoc8686
will frag for food
+11|7113|Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Again, this thread was not for debating (that will surely come later in many many more threads). This thread was just to establish the basic political views for the members of the community.
2005-11-04 23:35:35
dshak
Member
+4|7086
don't like that whole 'aka communist' thing... if you've read marx you would know that what he envisioned as communism and what the practical application of communism is in the modern/post modern era are not the same thing. When I hear someone say marxist I hear something totally different than communist. somewhere along the line communal ownership turned into state control.

Not the same ballpark. hell not the same game, not played on the same field, not even the same planet.

As for democracy being a sham, I'm not sure too many democratic systems are void of corruption, as politics and corruption do now and have always gone hand in hand. Exactly which part is the sham? the part were there are more civil liberties and democratic freedoms than any society in the history of the modern world?

I think its a little too easy and a bit too fashionable to bash the system these days. I'm not saying its the best, but it sure ain't the worst, and I don't buy that its all about self preservation for one second.

Besides, I'm always suspicious about people who say they are marxists, and say it while typing on their rather expensive computer on a forum for a rather expensive video game.

Personally, I kinda dig those socialist democracies they have in northern europe (ie sweden). democratic principles of government with socialist applications (ie national health care). don't know if it'd be practical in a country the size of the United States but it sounds cool.

I true COMMUNIST I'd be surprised to find outside the higher political rankings of, errr, china... a socialist, now that I could comprehend.

Last edited by dshak (2005-11-04 23:38:50)

2005-11-04 23:40:33
THA
im a fucking .....well not now
+609|7043|AUS, Canberra
here in aus its ilegal not to vote once over the age of 18, im 27 and never voted cause i just dont care......our country seems to be the same no matter who is priminister.
2005-11-05 00:08:52
(T)eflon(S)hadow
R.I.P. Neda
+456|7102|Grapevine, TX
I am a 30 years old Conservative. I am mostly Republican, and my beliefs are based on what this country was founded on. Freedom to choose our own religious beliefs and those inalienable rights that every human should have the freedom to live their own life as they see fit. This is a very broad topic and I am not wanting to debate, just to simply state my beliefs. I believe in the US Constitution, and I believe both parties i.e. our Senators are screwing it up for the folks.

I do get it, what we are trying to do, and it is my belief that we are trying to keep this country as close to what it was when you and I  were a kid;  to live in the best country to have all the free will to live in a secure and open society for all of our own kids.

I served my country for eight years and I love it as much as the first time my Drill Instructors called me a Marine after 13 weeks, and I only had one bad day in the Corps, but that is a different story.

Last edited by (T)eflon(S)hadow (2005-11-05 00:12:49)

2005-11-05 00:29:51
GTKtino
Member
+0|7043

(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:

I am a 30 years old Conservative. I am mostly Republican, and my beliefs are based on what this country was founded on. Freedom to choose our own religious beliefs and those inalienable rights that every human should have the freedom to live their own life as they see fit. This is a very broad topic and I am not wanting to debate, just to simply state my beliefs. I believe in the US Constitution, and I believe both parties i.e. our Senators are screwing it up for the folks.

I do get it, what we are trying to do, and it is my belief that we are trying to keep this country as close to what it was when you and I  were a kid;  to live in the best country to have all the free will to live in a secure and open society for all of our own kids.

I served my country for eight years and I love it as much as the first time my Drill Instructors called me a Marine after 13 weeks, and I only had one bad day in the Corps, but that is a different story.
AGREED
2005-11-05 00:58:54
redfoxster
Chopper Whore Extraordinaire
+3|7046
I consider myself an independent, but i am very conservative minded, but I really don't like the republican party.   I dont know where that leaves me, I voted for Bush, because he was in my opinion the lesser of 2 evils, but not by much.  I dont believe politicans have any interest in doing what is morally right, or even what is good for people, like Democrats claim to do.  I am a firm believer that ALL people should have the right to, and should have guns.  The way a governemnt treats an armed population vs. an unarmed population are so radically different, and I think it goes a long way to maintain a lot of the basic freedoms we have as Americans.  I love being an American, we have a very nice life here, mostly because a lot of men and women layed down their lives to protect our way of life.  Im kind of tied on Iraq, half of me wants us as human beings to go and stop evil people anywhere they may be, evil is what it is, and anybody can recognize it.  The other half of me believes that we should let people determine their own fate, and so Im not sure if our being there is good or not, though I'd say it is, a lot less people are dying now, than did under Saddam, though you wouldn't think it from the news.  Politics makes my stomach hurt, so im gonna stop now.......

Here's hoping there is a God and we'll have peace on the other side.
2005-11-05 03:51:04
doxy
Member
+74|7063|Nevis

bluehavoc8686 wrote:

lol, nice monkey. sorry B, but you must understand that we americans feel it is our right to bear arms. it is the second greatest right according to our constitution (first in my mind) and keep in mind that our country was founded on violent revolution. basically, we are not peace makers typically. still, though i disagree with those who feel that america should not act as the 'world police.' i do feel we can be a bit heavy handed at times, but at least our intentions are generally good.
which one is the greatest? the right to be lucky?
2005-11-05 08:36:26
dshak
Member
+4|7086
well... If I read that above there you're saying that the first greatest right is.... the constitution itself????? The constitution is not a right.

Secondly, the right to bear arms is rubbish. If you combine all of the gun deaths in the United States with the whole of Europe, adding nation after nation until you equal the US population, hell surpass it, what you will find eventually is that Americans die by fire nearly 50 to 1 compared to Europeans. Is it because Americans are by nature more violent? heck no. its because we have guns.

Its a stupid right that dates back to an egrarian culture long gone. pure rubbish.

Finally, I'm by no means going to get on a soap box and talk about the greatness of America, but anyone who says the United States place in the world, or the rights of its citizens, account to being 'lucky' simply doesn't know a single thing about history. However you feel about the U.S. it is a nation forged on the blood of its own. The revolutionary war was, as said earlier, a violent revolution to throw off the chains of oppression, the difference was that unlike virtually every other violent revolution in history this one ended with the formation of a true Republic in every sense of the word, not a dictatorship. Thats remarkable. The civil war may have been a war of economics and not slavery, but again illustrates the truly dynamic history that makes America and Americans what they are today. Finally, say whatever you like, but in World War II the United States... truly... saved the entire world from from perhaps its darkest hour, era, millenia. The british were steadfast but cornered and badly outgunned. The Russian gave more blood than any other nation, but never would have been able to hold out on two fronts. The U.S. put the hammer to both the Riech and the Empire of Japan.

Whatever you think of America, don't think its place lucky. It is deserved. It is earned. Thats not to say we don't always do whats best with our standing, but there's no question we belong where we are.
2005-11-05 09:26:29
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7029|United States of America

dshak wrote:

Secondly, the right to bear arms is rubbish. If you combine all of the gun deaths in the United States with the whole of Europe, adding nation after nation until you equal the US population, hell surpass it, what you will find eventually is that Americans die by fire nearly 50 to 1 compared to Europeans. Is it because Americans are by nature more violent? heck no. its because we have guns.

Its a stupid right that dates back to an egrarian culture long gone. pure rubbish.
There is where i dissagree with you, everything else is fine. The reason americans die from guns more often is because we have lots yes, but those people who have them arent usually law abiding citizens.  I have a gun and I'm 13, i would take it everywhere if i could get a CCW (concealed carry weapons permit)  But at my age i cant.  Second, there is a place in the U.S. where guns have been outlawed period, Washington D.C.  The murder capitol of the united states.  There is one hope in this country though, one town in arizona, where its a law to carry a weapon everywhere you go.  Guess what its crime rate is? Far below anything in europe.  My point is guns arent always the anwser, but when they are ou just have to step up and be willing to use one.
2005-11-05 10:14:05
doxy
Member
+74|7063|Nevis
arizona ... lol
americans love their guns
dshak was right, imho, the diffenrences in nations, are the opportunities the people have, and the choices they make. in some individual minds, in a highly emotional situation, a gun could be an option. but it is nerver one
i don't think it is usual, in america, to shoot someone, but i think they grab a gun sooner.

it could happen to any country, except india probably.

miller, what is the age limit for a CCW?

Last edited by doxy (2005-11-05 13:09:54)

2005-11-05 11:00:00
dshak
Member
+4|7086
I'm not too sure that Washington DC is the murder capitol of the United States, but I don't know for sure or not so I can't disagree (always thought it was Youngstown Ohio, then New Orleans, based on per capita)

I'm not necessarily against the idea of guns, for example if you want to own a hunting rifle whatever... i don't do it (now if we equipped deer with RPGs to fight back then it'd be more interesting!). Not to mention the fact that I don't know if you'd see a lot of gangsters running around with buckshot and bolt action rifles, but I think handguns are ridiculous, and you might not like it, but a 13 year old saying he wishes he could carry his gun everywhere... that kind of makes my point for me.

By the way, you're point about DC being the murder capitol, if it is true, isn't valid at all. You could just get one in Jersey and bring it there, or buy it illegally in georgetown, ha. You're not going to win a single arguement with me by saying the reason the United States is the gun death capitol of the known universe isn't because they are accessable here.

The University of Colorado in Boulder is a 'dry campus.' The sale of alcohol is illegal, yet it is always one of the Princeton Reviews top 20 'party schools.' You can make it illegal, beer guns whatever, but if its not illegal after a 15 minute drive there's really no point.

The difference between a lunatic in the US and a lunatic in Great Britain is the one in the US can get a gun.

Finally, the ACTUAL LIVING CONSTITUTION READS:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

I really don't believe that the framers meant everyone has a right to carry a glock. The current gun lobbies use of that provision is a complete bastardization of the law.

GO BUFFALOES!

Last edited by dshak (2005-11-05 11:15:56)

2005-11-05 15:17:02
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7029|United States of America
The age limit to a CCW is either 18 or 25, i dont remember which.  And just because im 13 doesnt mean im goin to go around shootin people for fun.  Growing up near LA is alot different than most people think.  Its not all fun, 3/4 of it sucks.  The police are always gettin sued for doin their jobs right.  Its just not fun around here so i think its important to have a gun.  I carry a knife everywhere i go, you arent going to hear about me snapping one day and stabbing everyone who looks at me.  I believe in my rights to self defense, if im threatened they will be teh next second.  The only way to peace in this world is through violence, you need to understand that.
2005-11-05 20:05:05
kilroy0097
Kilroy Is Here!
+81|7116|Bryan/College Station, TX
These are just comments to several topics discussed so far.

The Constitution was written during a time when there was no official union of states into a country, at least not in the mind set of the inhabitants. It was written with State Rights and Regulations in mind. Hence the wording:  "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". Without this wording several of the colonies, later states, would not have agreed to the Constitution. Rhode Island being one that held off the longest.

The Civil War, incorrectly stated as a war over slavery. To a degree it was yes a war over economics however there is more to it than that. The civil war was the overseeing of many state run ideals by the Federal Government. Essentially the Federal Government wanted to run things, get taxes, give funding, social acts of land planning, transportation routes, etc. By doing this it took away many rights of the states themselves and put them in the hands of a Federal Government that was by in large the North. Hence the Civil War between the free land owners and state governments of the South against the Union of States in the North.

Socialism can not and will not exist as long as Capitalism prevails and yes this is a rather obvious duh statement. Communism in its current form is nothing more than a council lead, economic dictatorship. China is barely Communist in it's current form and really should be reanalyzed and renamed another unique title given its recent astronomical rise in the economic sector and the recent introduction of Capitalist like companies and ideals from Singapore and Hong Kong. It is a country with skewed political and economic views. Economists and Foreign Political Science experts need to put their heads together for China and figuring out what they are actually working towards right now and perhaps recategorize their government title.

Marxism is flawed in that it assumes a utopian society where the fellow man will want to work with other fellow men to keep the status quo. This in a simpler form can be seen today in your classic Union structures within companies. Strikes often happen out of the want for more wages, not because more wages are needed but because greed drives humanity. Hence Marxism while a nice concept in theory does not work in practice. Greed is why Socialism and Marxism will never succeed and why Capitalism is the driving force on the planet.

Just random comments to above posts.

Cheers.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
2005-11-05 20:17:14
pfcilng
Member
+0|7040|Northern Illinois University
Registered as a Democrat, with some socialist views on education and health care, moderate gun control.
Would like a new President right now, glad my republican friends switched sides after spending some time in the giant sand box (Iraq).

As for god, Has anyone heard of the Flying Spaghti Monster? Yes, I was touched by his noodly appendage.
http://www.venganza.org/
2005-11-05 20:27:31
dshak
Member
+4|7086
nothing I like more than a 13 year old telling me that I need to udnerstand the only way to have peace in this world is through violence. I'm not knocking on you because you're 13 man, but you are 13.  sigh. I'm not even going to argue, I mean, my extensive education, life experiences for the last 26 years, etc etc don't really matter. ha. its all opinion. there's probably a little truth in every one. yadda yadda. insert remaining cliches here.

also, if the other guy was refering to me with the civil war comment. I believe I said it WASN'T about slavery. it really, really, wasn't. i promise. haha.

Last edited by dshak (2005-11-05 20:29:12)

2005-11-05 20:50:51
pfcilng
Member
+0|7040|Northern Illinois University

Miller wrote:

The age limit to a CCW is either 18 or 25, i dont remember which.  And just because im 13 doesnt mean im goin to go around shootin people for fun.  Growing up near LA is alot different than most people think.  Its not all fun, 3/4 of it sucks.  The police are always gettin sued for doin their jobs right.  Its just not fun around here so i think its important to have a gun.  I carry a knife everywhere i go, you arent going to hear about me snapping one day and stabbing everyone who looks at me.  I believe in my rights to self defense, if im threatened they will be teh next second.  The only way to peace in this world is through violence, you need to understand that.
Hmmm, The only way to peace is violence?  Seems to be the road you take when you get lost and refuse to stop and ask for directions, with the kids in the back screaming "Are we there yet" and your significant other saying you are lost, and there you go, take the van off the cliff.
2005-11-05 21:12:13
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7029|United States of America
You know that might be kinda funny, my dad would joke about that kinda thing. He is into humor like that.  Yes the only way to peace is through violence.  Try negotiating with a communist or dictator. What do they do once you turn your back?  Well.... they start to do whatever you agreed on not doing.  Example: What did Hitler do when he agreed to stop trying to take over the world? Anwser: Tried again. Example: When is it that Suddam said he would stop trying to build chemical, and nuclear weapons? Then after signing contracts, what did he do? Anwser: Continue!  In conclusion what is the only way to teach terrorists a lesson? My opinion....  BLAST THE HELL OUTTA THE BASTARDS AND IF NEED BE BLOW EVERYONE OVER THERE TO BITS!!!  Japan is another example,  wouldnt give up, 2 nukes and they refuse, well i got knews for yah.  What is teh only way anyone in this damned world stops being an asshole?  You kick their ass.  In Russia there was a group of terrorists that took civilians' relatives, chopped them into pieces, then sent them to their doorsteps in bodybags.  Now this is under communism, so the russian government got the relatives of the terrorists, chopped them to pieces and sent them to the terrorist doorstep.  Terrorists stop, no negotiation, if there had been, do you really think these terrorists would stop and say "Hey we were wrong, we must apologize."  HELL NO!!! They would just keep on goin, there IS only one way to peace and its through violence, whether you like it, or not.
2005-11-06 00:17:34
redfoxster
Chopper Whore Extraordinaire
+3|7046

pfcilng wrote:

Miller wrote:

The age limit to a CCW is either 18 or 25, i dont remember which.  And just because im 13 doesnt mean im goin to go around shootin people for fun.  Growing up near LA is alot different than most people think.  Its not all fun, 3/4 of it sucks.  The police are always gettin sued for doin their jobs right.  Its just not fun around here so i think its important to have a gun.  I carry a knife everywhere i go, you arent going to hear about me snapping one day and stabbing everyone who looks at me.  I believe in my rights to self defense, if im threatened they will be teh next second.  The only way to peace in this world is through violence, you need to understand that.
Hmmm, The only way to peace is violence?  Seems to be the road you take when you get lost and refuse to stop and ask for directions, with the kids in the back screaming "Are we there yet" and your significant other saying you are lost, and there you go, take the van off the cliff.
The kid has a good point, though im not sure if he knows it yet.  You have to consider, what is peace?  If you consider peace to be the lack of violence, then the kid is wrong.  But if you consider peace to be freedom from an unjust government and freedom from fear of death, or torture, or murder, or robbery....then peace most defiently does not occur without the use of violence.  This is where I want to hate myself, but violence is not an evil thing, it is a powerful thing, and it is good when used for a good reason, and evil when used for an evil reason, violence is just the tool, the user is what makes the cause.  Much the same way a gun is not a murderer, it is simply a tool used to amplify a person's power so they can commit a murder, just like a knife, or a large blunt object, perhaps even a book?  If we should ban guns because they can be used to kill people, should we ban books as well? or golf clubs? or kitchen knives?
2005-11-06 00:26:48
redfoxster
Chopper Whore Extraordinaire
+3|7046

dshak wrote:

Finally, the ACTUAL LIVING CONSTITUTION READS:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

I really don't believe that the framers meant everyone has a right to carry a glock. The current gun lobbies use of that provision is a complete bastardization of the law.

GO BUFFALOES!
Quite the contrary, well sort of, Id say the first part of the second amendment, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" sets the context of the second part, and the point is, that a government treats an armed population different than an unarmed population.  Not many people say they have a problem wtih hunting rifles and shotguns because nobody would go to war with them.  What kind of small arms does our armed forces take in to combat? Assault rifles and pistols, and that's the reason that they should not be banned, more so than any other type of gun, because they are exactly the kind of weapon that a well regulated Militia should and/or would have, and use them to maintain the security of a free State, both secure from invasion and secure from an unjust government.

Last edited by redfoxster (2005-11-06 00:29:04)

2005-11-06 09:35:32
dshak
Member
+4|7086
Every household needs an assault weapon to maintain the security of our free state? god I hope I misunderstood that.I might be wrong but my idea of a well regulated militia would be the state national guard, which still doesn't mean the average citizen should have or needs the rightsto have an AK101.

Finally, the "kid" doesn't make a good point, he just makes a point. There is some validity to his argument but for every point about the effective use of violence he makes I can site two more which are much more profound and lasting about nonviolent revolution.

What Ghandi accomplished in India was astonishing. Mandela in South Africa. How about the current state of global affairs? Why does a terrorist bomb a bus, or a school, or pair of buildings in New York? He does it for one reason alone, to provoke a reaction. To provoke US troops in muslim lands and american fighters bombing villages. he does it so we'll lob a cruz missile into an apartment complex, possibly killing him but knowing we'll kill women and children to... and the reason for this, it rallies more to his cause and turns the world of public opinion against us. He can't fight us fairly now, but with every bomb, every invasion, there are a thousand new recruits every day to his cause. It's a fight we will NEVER win. ever. no matter how strong our military is, we just can't win this, just like we just couldn't win in Vietnam, just like the Soviets just couldn't win in Afghanistan.

Almost every day bombs fall in gaza, cruz missiles fly into populated urban areas, and IDF conducts raids on palestinians. But the suicide bombers keep coming don't they? Next to the United States Israel probably has the most effective and precise military machine in the entire world, and they are fighting a bunch of medieval age farmers with badly wired pipe bombs, yet they can't win, and for every terrorist they kill a thousand more rise to replace them. Why are women and children becoming suicide bombers? I'll give you one word... CAUSE. You can't take cause away through violence, in fact most of the time you only strengthen their resolve.

I'm 26 years old, Ive never served in a forward area but have lost two former classmates, both in Afghanistan. I'm by no means a pacifist. I beleive the war in Iragq was a good one, but only because the majority of people in that country were suffering from a violent regime, a brutal dicatorship. I'm speaking from a n undergraduate degree in History, and two master's degrees (Politcal Science and International Relations). I'm working on my doctoral thesis and I am writing on Soviet/ American relations in the 1970s. I don't say this to brag, just to qualify my opinion and show it comes from a well thought out and educated position. The Cold War. Perhaps the most dangerous international rivalry in history. More threatening than even the Nazis were due to the spector of nuclear war. Let me ask you something???? How many battles did we win in the cold war? How many soviets did we kill?

The only way to peace is not through violence. to say so is ignorant, and I use that word for its true meaning, not to name call. The kid is 13, in the words of Yoda "much to learn he still has." I respect his opinion for that, but to hear (what I suspect) are grown men agreeing, makes me shudder. just a little.

Then again, I'd expect a bunch of war hawks on a forum for game called Battlefield! haha. Just asking you guys to consider the whole picture.

Last edited by dshak (2005-11-06 09:55:35)

2005-11-06 14:38:47
pfcilng
Member
+0|7040|Northern Illinois University

redfoxster wrote:

pfcilng wrote:

Miller wrote:

The age limit to a CCW is either 18 or 25, i dont remember which.  And just because im 13 doesnt mean im goin to go around shootin people for fun.  Growing up near LA is alot different than most people think.  Its not all fun, 3/4 of it sucks.  The police are always gettin sued for doin their jobs right.  Its just not fun around here so i think its important to have a gun.  I carry a knife everywhere i go, you arent going to hear about me snapping one day and stabbing everyone who looks at me.  I believe in my rights to self defense, if im threatened they will be teh next second.  The only way to peace in this world is through violence, you need to understand that.
Hmmm, The only way to peace is violence?  Seems to be the road you take when you get lost and refuse to stop and ask for directions, with the kids in the back screaming "Are we there yet" and your significant other saying you are lost, and there you go, take the van off the cliff.
The kid has a good point, though im not sure if he knows it yet.  You have to consider, what is peace?  If you consider peace to be the lack of violence, then the kid is wrong.  But if you consider peace to be freedom from an unjust government and freedom from fear of death, or torture, or murder, or robbery....then peace most defiently does not occur without the use of violence.  This is where I want to hate myself, but violence is not an evil thing, it is a powerful thing, and it is good when used for a good reason, and evil when used for an evil reason, violence is just the tool, the user is what makes the cause.  Much the same way a gun is not a murderer, it is simply a tool used to amplify a person's power so they can commit a murder, just like a knife, or a large blunt object, perhaps even a book?  If we should ban guns because they can be used to kill people, should we ban books as well? or golf clubs? or kitchen knives?
well guess I gotta have to clarify my response.

Violence does work at times, yes it did stop Hitler, BUT at what point was something done about it.  World War II  began and Hitler was "placed" in power not more than 5 min after the treaty ending world war I ( I am NOT being literal).  If we look back at what causes people like Hitler and terrorism to exist, we will see that a non-violent solution would of worked at the root of the problem.  Once you let the problem get out of hand, violence might have to be used, when all other options are exhausted.

As Dshak has mentioned, kill one terroritst, you are only creating more.  I believe this is 100 % true.

I play a game at time, I switch places with a "insurgent" and imagine how I would feel if a hostile dictator had been removed, only to find those who removed him are hanging around and things are not getting much better (crime and violence increasing).  What would you do?
2005-11-06 14:43:03
redfoxster
Chopper Whore Extraordinaire
+3|7046
edit: THis one is to dshak

Starting with my first post, you proved my point.  The majority of people in Iraq had no peace.  The use of violence, the Iraq War, ended that, though it is still in a period of turmoil, things are a hell of a lot better than they were before, thus the Iraqi people are much closer to peace now, than they were before.  And I was the one making the point, not the kid, he just made the statement, and it's one I agree with whole heartedly.  I seriously doubt he fully understands why it's an accurate statement, but it is none the less.

You are right, what people like Gandhi and Nelson Mandela and Dr. Martin Luther King did was amazing, and ideal, but the reason they were succesful is because they challenged a system that was based on a doctrine of Justice, though every system has it's failing points, which is what put them in a bad place to start with.  If these were methods that worked everytime, then why is North Korea still under a communist regime?  Because non-violent means cannot overcome an unjust system, it's just that simple.  The Cold War was NOT an example of non-violent means bringing about revolution, at least not domestically.  A vast majority of people in the satellite nations in the USSR did not want to be under that regime, but it was not them that beought down the USSR, it was economic failure brought on by competition with the US, and you should know that.  If you want a body count for the soviets, I can't tell you, and nobody can, how many millions did die under Stalin the like of him? how many more were killed for speaking out against the government there? I dont know.

"The only way to peace is through non-violent means."  That statement is equally as ignorant as saying the opposite.  If you want to consider the body count of a war, consider the body count of not having a war at all, and try to decide which is really worse...

Last, you definetly missed the point of what I said about the 2nd Amendment.  Im not advocaating that everyone run around with assault weapons, because that keeps us free. The RIGHT to do so however, IS what keeps us free, that is all I meant.

I'm not gonna lie, I do take offense to your disclaimer about your education coupled with the statement, "...consider the whole picture".  I also take offense to being called a war hawk.  First, the direct implication is tha I am not considering all party's involved, but I would say, it's quite the contrary, the arguement could be just as easily made the you are the one not "considering the whole picture" and thus you are the hypocrite.  We both know that this discussion has no right or wrong answers, just different opinons and different basis' for them.  So please, leave this strictly to debate of the issues, and not the competency of the debators.

Last, I want you to consider and respond to this statement. "Being alive is not neccessarily living, and a lack of war is not neccessarily peace."  My example that I point to, is the Iraqi people for starters, they were not at war before we came, but were they living in peace?  How many Kurds did he gas in the late 80's? How many women were tortured an raped? How many men were tortured and killed without cause?  Was tha really peace?

Last edited by redfoxster (2005-11-06 20:50:35)

 

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