Is Algebra Necessary?

2012-07-30 14:24:09

#51

-CARNIFEX-[LOC]: Da Blooze; +111|6893

Basic algebra should at least be attempted by all students who are theoretically capable (obv most special ed students wouldn't qualify). For non-college-bound students, that's pretty much as far as we need to take it.

Students who are higher achievers, and likely college-bound, should be exposed to algebra ASAP. There were plenty of kids I went to (public) school with who could have handled algebra and geometry in middle school - 6th/7th grade seems fairly reasonable to me.

We would do better to have a system that could better recognize students with higher academic potential, and somehow fast-track them a little. I still don't think we necessarily want to be forcing smart kids into college before they can legally drive, but 16 or 17 isn't that unreasonable an age to graduate.

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/12516/Bitch%20Hunter%20Sig.jpg

2012-07-30 14:40:47

#52

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6830

If I'm not mistaken, the German school system is set up so in middle school you decide if you're going to university or trade school.
Even the trade school track there isn't bad - apprenticeships sponsored by the major companies (BMW, Mercedes, etc).

Any Germans with first hand knowledge of that school system care to elaborate?

2012-07-30 14:49:32

#53

Jaekus: I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose; +957|5417|Sydney

That's a pretty good idea. Not everyone wants to continue on to university yet the bulk of the school system is setup for that pathway.

2012-07-30 14:55:26

#54

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5597|London, England

I would hate to force people to make a life altering decision like that at such a young age.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-07-30 14:57:32

#55

Ilocano: buuuurrrrrrppppp.......; +341|6906

Here in SoCal, we have Occupational Centers for those interested in areas like auto mechanic, machining, electronics, bodyshop, plebotomy, nursing assistant, clerical, and the like. Consider good mechanics here take in six figure salaries at dealerships, not bad at all.

2012-07-30 15:24:28

#56

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,979|6871|949

unfortunately those Occupational Centers are far more interested in getting your money than setting you up with a great future. Sure, you can learn a trade there, but they tend to over promise and under deliver in regards to jobs. I recommend finding an entry level position and then going to one of those schools to further your advancement. It makes more sense to me to find a job in a related field then take schooling. I wouldn't bet my future on UTI or ITT or DeVry.

2012-07-30 15:44:35

#57

-CARNIFEX-[LOC]: Da Blooze; +111|6893

Jay wrote:
I would hate to force people to make a life altering decision like that at such a young age.

Let's say they change their minds and want to get in to a university: I would assume that even students who chose the "trade school route" could still take the ACT/SAT and apply to schools of interest. This sort of student would probably be in the minority compared to those that continue to display relatively similar grades/inclinations from 12-13 up through highschool, and they would likely need to put in extra effort to study for the SAT/ACT (beyond what more-prepared peers might require).

But if they had posted decent grades in their trade-oriented coursework, and go on to earn a decent ACT/SAT score, I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to go to college. Then it might be a matter of schools trying to prevent kids from taking the "easy route" and taking a bunch of technical classes, then taking the ACT/SAT and going to college. Although I don't personally see a problem with that, if they can still pass the same exams as everyone else...whatever was missed should be made up for in college, right?

(I'm assuming that, as I said above, basic algebra - and for that matter, basic science, English, etc. - would be covered regardless of your path. Just as universities will still give B.A. students at least a few math/science req's, to make them well-rounded and all. Insert fat American joke here...)

Last edited by -CARNIFEX-[LOC] (2012-07-30 15:48:56)

2012-07-30 15:49:30

#58

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5597|London, England

It would be nigh on impossible to pass the math portion of the SATs without taking geometry, algebra, trigonometry and pre-calculus in high school, at the bare minimum. English you can get away with as that has more to do with your reading skills than anything you learn in the classroom. If you're a strong reader, you'll do well on that section.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-07-30 15:56:04

#59

Beduin: Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid; +510|5989|شمال

rdx-fx wrote:
Even engineering degrees require you to take sociology, psychology, writing, and public speaking classes.

Well..not here. I try to teach my students not to 'talk too much', when writing a technical dousmentaion. Thats the blessing of beeing an engineer.We are brief, present figures and graphs with a short description of, what the reader is looking at. We let others do the 'talking'..lol.

science research and papers are a different matter though...

الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic

2012-07-30 15:57:50

#60

-CARNIFEX-[LOC]: Da Blooze; +111|6893

Jay wrote:
It would be nigh on impossible to pass the math portion of the SATs without taking geometry, algebra, trigonometry and pre-calculus in high school, at the bare minimum. English you can get away with as that has more to do with your reading skills than anything you learn in the classroom. If you're a strong reader, you'll do well on that section.

Well, in the case of the ACT you would have Reading, Science and English to help round out your score. I can see someone with a solid grasp of even very basic algebra being able to get a high enough score on the math portion to not ruin their overall score, if the others are decent. The SAT is different, and like I said, it would potentially require a lot more effort to prepare than some of your peers might face.

But is that unfair, if you did poorly in school, or had focused your efforts elsewhere, up until you were close to graduation?

All I know is, the current system holds a lot of intelligent kids back, and is simultaneously (apparently) too hard for many of their peers. In this day and age, I would hope we could develop a school system that was more adaptable, and better suited to meeting the wide spectrum of student's needs. And holy shit did that not just sound like talking points during an election year....

2012-07-30 16:03:32

#61

Brasso: member; +1,549|6869

13urnzz wrote:
i passed algebra my freshman year, and haven't used it since.

i bet you that you use algebra on a daily basis without knowing

"people in ny have a general idea of how to drive. one of the pedals goes forward the other one prevents you from dying"

2012-07-30 16:12:45

#62

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5597|London, England

-CARNIFEX-[LOC] wrote:
Jay wrote:
It would be nigh on impossible to pass the math portion of the SATs without taking geometry, algebra, trigonometry and pre-calculus in high school, at the bare minimum. English you can get away with as that has more to do with your reading skills than anything you learn in the classroom. If you're a strong reader, you'll do well on that section.
Well, in the case of the ACT you would have Reading, Science and English to help round out your score. I can see someone with a solid grasp of even very basic algebra being able to get a high enough score on the math portion to not ruin their overall score, if the others are decent. The SAT is different, and like I said, it would potentially require a lot more effort to prepare than some of your peers might face.

But is that unfair, if you did poorly in school, or had focused your efforts elsewhere, up until you were close to graduation?

All I know is, the current system holds a lot of intelligent kids back, and is simultaneously (apparently) too hard for many of their peers. In this day and age, I would hope we could develop a school system that was more adaptable, and better suited to meeting the wide spectrum of student's needs. And holy shit did that not just sound like talking points during an election year....

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but New York schools operate on a tier system. You'll generally have an Honors/AP class at the top who are taught at a more advanced and rapid pace. Regents students who are middle of the road and generally stay on track to get into college with perhaps a remedial class or two, and Non-Regents who are the dregs and simply pushed, pulled and prodded towards graduation when the school system can simply wash their hands of them. The tier system is meritocratic, you can move between tiers based on your ability and performance.

We also have an alternative high school system called BOCES that takes in the special education kids as well as those that want to go into trades rather than complete normal high school.

The system is kind of meh overall because they generally try to split the three tiers into equal sized groups. Because of this, even at an honors level you'll still end up with a handful of derps that slow everyone else down. But... at least they aren't fingering each other in class or throwing M&Ms across the room like the non-regents kids

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-07-30 16:29:55

#63

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7011|PNW

The emphasis of a kid's early school years should be to plan for as many contingencies as possible, which means sticking to the academic system. During later school years, staff should do their best to make notes on their students in regards to strengths and interests with input from the students themselves (or as much as they're willing to volunteer). With the choice ultimately down to the students, counselors should use this information to suggest that a student go in one direction or the other. Without the meddling of helicopter parents.

Better access to tech colleges and apprenticeships should be made available.

That said...

Making mathematics mandatory prevents us from discovering and developing young talent.

teh fuck?

Jay wrote:
What say you? Should 'hard maths' like algebra be removed from the high school curriculum?

I'm not sure that's what the article was asking.

2012-07-30 16:40:12

#64

Jaekus: I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose; +957|5417|Sydney

Jay wrote:
I would hate to force people to make a life altering decision like that at such a young age.

I can't see it being a negative. In order to take the trade route you would know that's the way you want to go. Otherwise I'd assume you would just go through the usual classes that are the pathway to uni that the rest of us go through.

2012-07-30 16:41:56

#65

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5597|London, England

Did you know what you wanted to do with your life at 14? I didn't figure it out until I was 27 personally.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-07-30 16:43:50

#66

Ilocano: buuuurrrrrrppppp.......; +341|6906

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
unfortunately those Occupational Centers are far more interested in getting your money than setting you up with a great future. Sure, you can learn a trade there, but they tend to over promise and under deliver in regards to jobs. I recommend finding an entry level position and then going to one of those schools to further your advancement. It makes more sense to me to find a job in a related field then take schooling. I wouldn't bet my future on UTI or ITT or DeVry.

I was actually referring to these: http://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/si/rp/

Here is the one in your area: http://www.coastlinerop.schoolloop.com/

2012-07-30 16:46:06

#67

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7011|PNW

Jay wrote:
Did you know what you wanted to do with your life at 14? I didn't figure it out until I was 27 personally.

Being encouraged to pick and excel at a path early on doesn't really preclude going back to school at a later date if you decide you want to do something else.

2012-07-30 16:47:31

#68

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5597|London, England

unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Jay wrote:
Did you know what you wanted to do with your life at 14? I didn't figure it out until I was 27 personally.
Being encouraged to pick and excel at a path early on doesn't really preclude going back to school at a later date if you decide you want to do something else.

Are you being stupid on purpose? If you want to add years to your college experience then yeah, go ahead and skip high school math classes.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-07-30 17:09:01

#69

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,979|6871|949

Ilocano wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
unfortunately those Occupational Centers are far more interested in getting your money than setting you up with a great future. Sure, you can learn a trade there, but they tend to over promise and under deliver in regards to jobs. I recommend finding an entry level position and then going to one of those schools to further your advancement. It makes more sense to me to find a job in a related field then take schooling. I wouldn't bet my future on UTI or ITT or DeVry.
I was actually referring to these: http://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/si/rp/

Here is the one in your area: http://www.coastlinerop.schoolloop.com/

well i learned something new. I thought ROP classes were just for high school students. Turns out there are a few classes offered to adults. But most of the trades you listed are only offered to high school students - at least locally.

2012-07-30 17:09:06

#70

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7011|PNW

Jay wrote:
unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Jay wrote:
Did you know what you wanted to do with your life at 14? I didn't figure it out until I was 27 personally.
Being encouraged to pick and excel at a path early on doesn't really preclude going back to school at a later date if you decide you want to do something else.
Are you being stupid on purpose? If you want to add years to your college experience then yeah, go ahead and skip high school math classes.

You got rocks in your brain or something? When did I ever say that, you great troll?

2012-07-30 17:10:17

#71

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5825

The only real career path is paved with STEM classes

2012-07-30 17:13:15

#72

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5597|London, England

unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Jay wrote:
unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Being encouraged to pick and excel at a path early on doesn't really preclude going back to school at a later date if you decide you want to do something else.
Are you being stupid on purpose? If you want to add years to your college experience then yeah, go ahead and skip high school math classes.
You got rocks in your brain or something? When did I ever say that, you great troll?

Why are you posting in this thread if you didn't bother to read anything that was posted besides the OP? Having a kid pick trade school at 14 would preclude him from taking the necessary math classes to go to college later in life if he decides to make the change. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Even a degree in English requires at least one college level math class be completed. In order to complete that one college level math class they would need three or four semesters of remedial math. Asking 14 year olds to make life altering decisions is fucking retarded because hey, guess what? they have zero life experience to draw from in order to make an informed decision.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-07-30 17:18:10

#73

Ilocano: buuuurrrrrrppppp.......; +341|6906

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Ilocano wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
unfortunately those Occupational Centers are far more interested in getting your money than setting you up with a great future. Sure, you can learn a trade there, but they tend to over promise and under deliver in regards to jobs. I recommend finding an entry level position and then going to one of those schools to further your advancement. It makes more sense to me to find a job in a related field then take schooling. I wouldn't bet my future on UTI or ITT or DeVry.
I was actually referring to these: http://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/si/rp/

Here is the one in your area: http://www.coastlinerop.schoolloop.com/
well i learned something new. I thought ROP classes were just for high school students. Turns out there are a few classes offered to adults. But most of the trades you listed are only offered to high school students - at least locally.

Plenty of "A" listed. But those I listed were from my time, ages ago.

WTH is taught for Fire Technology and Fire Science 101? Prep for firemen?

2012-07-30 17:18:47

#74

Spark: liquid fluoride thorium reactor; +874|6914|Canberra, AUS

people should really learn more algebra... so they can tell me what the fuck the special indefinite orthogonal group actually is

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
^{~ Richard Feynman}

2012-07-30 17:21:27

#75

Hurricane2k9: Pendulous Sweaty Balls; +1,538|5941|College Park, MD

I always thought math helped your reasoning ability. I figure there's a reason math majors score so highly on the LSAT.

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BF2S Forums Is Algebra Necessary?

Jay wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Jay wrote:

13urnzz wrote:

-CARNIFEX-[LOC] wrote:

Jay wrote:

Jay wrote:

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Jay wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

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