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2012-02-05 13:33:05
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5577

After hearing the ending of this

I started to wonder if the rules for homeschooling should be tightened. The child obviously has a different world view than I and that's fine. But the child never had a chance to develop a world view independent of their parents. I'm sure the parents wanted to create a clone of themselves but is that fair to the child? I'm not sure. I can see the whole individual over state angle but at the same time you are going to screw your child's long term development. I'm all for people destroying their lives, literally and metaphorically, if they want to, but should a child have to suffer because their parent's world view doesn't jive with society at large?

According to this random table I found on wikipedia
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/47545/homeschool.png
most children in homeschooling programs are there because of the personal views of the parents (religious reason, To develop character/morality, etc.) rather than some sort of prohibitive circumstance (Child has special needs/disability, Transportation/convenience). So do you think that the legal reasons for homeschooling should be tightened to only allow homeschooling in the case of prohibitive circumstance?
2012-02-05 13:33:54
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6489

inb4Warman
2012-02-05 13:41:44
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6650|BC, Canada
well shifty has recently realized that his amazing homeschooling has crushed his ability to get his dream job... and that job doesn't exactly have high standards.
2012-02-05 13:48:15
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5349|London, England

-Whiteroom- wrote:

well shifty has recently realized that his amazing homeschooling has crushed his ability to get his dream job... and that job doesn't exactly have high standards.
That has more to do with the system being retardedly inflexible than anything else though. We let foreigners in our military without a US high school diploma, but an American citizen with a foreign diploma is assed out. Kind of funny tbh.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-02-05 13:49:46
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|6701|Oklahoma City
No, I don't think the law has any say in it. If the kid can pass the standardized tests and college entrance exams, then job done.
2012-02-05 13:50:31
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6436|The Land of Scott Walker
No, they should not be tightened to only in prohibitive circumstances.  If atheist parents were forced by the state to send their child to a religious school which contradicted their views, would you oppose their right to educate their child as they see fit?  No, there would be justified outrage.  Same concept in reverse for religious folks who choose to give their children individualized education at home.  Also, some people home school their kids simply because their child does not function well in a group setting where they may not receive the help they need.  Public schools are designed to force everyone to fit a mold within some may not learn.  That would be the case with my sister.  School came easy to me, but not for her.  Everyone is unique and their parents should have the option to tailor it as needed.
2012-02-05 13:52:15
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5170|Sydney
Homeschoolers miss out on some crucial social skills. Yes, I must admit I was homeschooled for a few years... that is to say, my parents said "we're moving interstate and if you want you don't have to go to school any more". As a kid that's awesome... luckily for me after about 6 months I realised my parents didn't actually know what to teach me, so I taught myself algebra, trig and basic calculus from text books at the age 12-13. Also taught myself grade 12 English. No science though. And guitar. When I went back to school and did grade 11 and 12 I found I was pleasantly ahead of many students, behind a few, which was similar to my primary school years. The biggest sufferance was the social interaction and skills, which took me some learning. I don't regret those years, but when I have kids I will definitely send them to school from start to finish. At least my parents are totally non-religious. It was for lifestyle reasons I guess.
2012-02-05 13:56:50
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6436|The Land of Scott Walker
Some may miss out, but certainly not all.  The overwhelming majority of home schooling parents are very intentional about ensuring their children learn all necessary subjects along with opportunities for socialization.
2012-02-05 13:58:10
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5170|Sydney
This isn't to say I didn't have socialisation, just not nearly as much as when I went to school

I guess if my parents were religious and took me to Sunday school... I'd probably be as brainwashed as some other people I not need mention
2012-02-05 14:01:08
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5349|London, England

Jaekus wrote:

Homeschoolers miss out on some crucial social skills. Yes, I must admit I was homeschooled for a few years... that is to say, my parents said "we're moving interstate and if you want you don't have to go to school any more". As a kid that's awesome... luckily for me after about 6 months I realised my parents didn't actually know what to teach me, so I taught myself algebra, trig and basic calculus from text books at the age 12-13. Also taught myself grade 12 English. No science though. And guitar. When I went back to school and did grade 11 and 12 I found I was pleasantly ahead of many students, behind a few, which was similar to my primary school years. The biggest sufferance was the social interaction and skills, which took me some learning. I don't regret those years, but when I have kids I will definitely send them to school from start to finish. At least my parents are totally non-religious. It was for lifestyle reasons I guess.
On the flip side, kids in a school environment miss out on individual tutoring that can actually affect and improve their education. Public schools are essentially organized babysitting environments with minimal education standards thrown in. You just can't beat a custom tailored education curriculum if the object is real academic success. Social skills are certainly important too, I'm not trying to downplay that at all, but here in the US it seems to be the primary driver.

I've said it before, I'd love to educate my future kids myself, and I'm certain that I would be successful at it, but I think I'm just going to limit it to extra tutoring at night after school.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-02-05 14:01:50
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6436|The Land of Scott Walker

Beduin wrote:

13urnzz wrote:

inb4Warman
God bless Governor Scott Walker
Yes, God bless him.  Our state no longer has a budget deficit because of his policies.  Read the news.
2012-02-05 14:03:51
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5170|Sydney
I'd like to teach my own kids too, being a music tutor and all and having taught myself quite a lot over the years I'm quite an advocate for self education. But I know I would not have time to do that, so instead I would prefer to send my kids to school and help them with their studies outside of school... or employ a tutor.
2012-02-05 14:06:36
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5349|London, England

Jaekus wrote:

I'd like to teach my own kids too, being a music tutor and all and having taught myself quite a lot over the years I'm quite an advocate for self education. But I know I would not have time to do that, so instead I would prefer to send my kids to school and help them with their studies outside of school... or employ a tutor.
The problem with that is the rigidity of the education system here. I can probably teach my kid college level math in early high school but it just means he'll be bored in class every day. Some schools have a system that lets high school kids take classes at local colleges, but you fall into the trap of making your kids socially awkward again. What's more important? Academic success or social brilliance? It's tough.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-02-05 14:38:28
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|6701|Oklahoma City

Jaekus wrote:

Homeschoolers miss out on some crucial social skills. Yes, I must admit I was homeschooled for a few years... that is to say, my parents said "we're moving interstate and if you want you don't have to go to school any more". As a kid that's awesome... luckily for me after about 6 months I realised my parents didn't actually know what to teach me, so I taught myself algebra, trig and basic calculus from text books at the age 12-13. Also taught myself grade 12 English. No science though. And guitar. When I went back to school and did grade 11 and 12 I found I was pleasantly ahead of many students, behind a few, which was similar to my primary school years. The biggest sufferance was the social interaction and skills, which took me some learning. I don't regret those years, but when I have kids I will definitely send them to school from start to finish. At least my parents are totally non-religious. It was for lifestyle reasons I guess.
Not necessarily true, but not necessarily wrong.

I was homeschooled for 8th-10th grades.

The reason: Gang fights were breaking out at my school almost everyday, and several kids were stabbed and beat up my 7th grade year. My parents wanted me away from it. They couldn't afford to send me to a private school, so homeschooling was the option.

Like you, my parents were ill-equipped to teach me, so I ended up teaching myself. I didn't understand algebra, so I skipped it. I taught myself geometry, trig, and calculus, but the algebra somehow never clicked (I was mainly making it MUCH more difficult than it was.)

Socially, I was part of a homeschool group, which is very common. We had a basketball league that I played in. A volleyball league that I played in. A weekly "P.E." day at the Y gym/pool. A monthly science class taught by the Oklahoma Science Museum. A monthly get-together or party. We had a Halloween hay ride, a Valentine's day dance, a Christmas gift exchange, etc. We also had a monthly special activity such as bowling or mini-golf or a movie. I went to church on Wednesday nights and was active in the youth group. It was all a very social time.

I have two cousins, on the other hand, that were homeschooled their entire lives. One was very outgoing, but lacked some basic social skills. He went back to public schools in high school and adjusted within a few weeks, and became one of the most popular kids in the school.  The other wasn't interested in socializing and preferred computers. He never really socialized with anyone and still doesn't. That was also the case for a number of kids heavily into computers that I went to public schools with.

My family moved and I went back to school because I wanted a Prom and to play football. (Football was an option as a homeschooler, as several of the local private schools allowed homeschoolers to play football with their team, but they were snobby and I didn't particularly want to hang out with those kids that much. I adjusted fine, but hated the rural high school environment after growing up in the city. I scored perfect on all of my ACT sections except math, and had to take algebra when I came back, so I was a Junior taking a class with a bunch of 8th graders. I took the finals for every class I skipped and made an A on all of them.

I finished 3rd in my class behind two people with no social skills what-so-ever, and both of them were public school kids their entire life.

I went to college and loved it.

My sister went back to public schools for high school and decided she didn't like the teenage girl highschool drama and just went ahead and took her GED and passed it as a 9th grader. She didn't go to college, but is married, has a family, and is happy, and has a really good work from home job.

So can you be less social? Yes. But there are still just as many options for social activities if you actually try to find them, and going to public schools does not ensure you actually get any social skills either.
2012-02-05 15:10:24
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6763|PNW

Jaekus wrote:

Homeschoolers miss out on some crucial social skills.
This is where people misunderstand proper homeschooling. Sure, it's true if the parents keep their homeschooled kids inside all the time (or homeschool them specifically for selfish reasons). But there are events and meet-ups specifically designed for homeschoolers to socialize with kids around their age. And no, unless it's all messed up, the parents don't sit around and awkwardly supervise interaction.

I was homeschooled for a year and went back to public school not because I was "lonely" (hell, I went bowling with other homeschoolers or to the Y for PE), but because the costs of tutors was at the time prohibitively expensive for my family, and the subjects I wanted to take didn't really lend themselves to self-learning very well without the necessary supplies. Tested ahead of the grade I was supposed to go into when I went back, particularly in math, English and history.

Homeschooling requires more, not less work on the parents' part to make sure their kid's getting the best of it and aren't just playing video games 24/7. It's a fair bet that at some point, especially in the middle of a kid's school career, the subjects will outpace the parents' recollection. This should also be tracked by the parents to make sure that if they can't teach a subject that the kid's still able to figure it out on his own or with the help of tutors. As a parent of a homeschooler, you're removing daily oversight from the district's hands and putting it into your own. So if someone's thinking of homeschooling a kid for the aforementioned selfish reasons (so they can sleep in, fuck off with having to drive the kid anywhere or shit like that), they should do the kid a favor and leave them in public/private.


Jay wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

I'd like to teach my own kids too, being a music tutor and all and having taught myself quite a lot over the years I'm quite an advocate for self education. But I know I would not have time to do that, so instead I would prefer to send my kids to school and help them with their studies outside of school... or employ a tutor.
The problem with that is the rigidity of the education system here. I can probably teach my kid college level math in early high school but it just means he'll be bored in class every day. Some schools have a system that lets high school kids take classes at local colleges, but you fall into the trap of making your kids socially awkward again. What's more important? Academic success or social brilliance? It's tough.
This is also a risk. If your kid's bored in class because he's too advanced for it, there's a chance he'll blow it off and get a terrible grade.
2012-02-05 15:23:09
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5170|Sydney
Well I guess for me I noticed it most with the whole girls thing when I went to school, hence I was a bit of a "late bloomer" if you will. I made friends pretty easily and some I'm still friends with today. I wouldn't say I was necessarily popular but I was on the good side of many different social circles so maybe I wasn't really as socially inept as I have led myself to believe. Plus I did go to some drama group for a year or so and my parents got involved for a brief time with some other home schooled families. I think when they discovered they were hardcore Christians they decided not to mingle any more, hehe.

I certainly did pick up subjects like maths (which I was already good at) at a much accelerated rate than I would've had I been in school. I did three years of maths (Grade 8, 9 and 10), and they were big text books (~400 pages in A4 size from memory) in about 18 months. In primary school half the class would copy from my work when the teacher was out of the room, and the same when I went back to school in grade 11, so some things never change

When I did a Cert IV in music at TAFE one of the teachers was a colleague at a high school I taught bass at (he taught guitar). Whenever we'd do work I'd always finish first and then he'd use my work as an example of how it is meant to be done, lol
2012-02-05 19:28:43
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6706|US
I don't really have the stats on homeschooling vs. public schooling at hand, but I'd venture to guess both have results that vary widely.
Homeschooling a student that would otherwise go to an under-performing school might drastically improve their education.  Homeschooling a student without putting in the necessary effort and/or blowing off subjects for religious or personal reasons would likely hurt the student far more than even a slightly sub-par public education.

Most of the homeschoolers I've met had some things in common.  First, their parents valued their religion and academic knowledge.  Second, they were ahead of the public school average in several subjects.  Third, they were somewhat socially awkward because they did not fully grasp common innuendo and had a harder time reading people when they weren't being straight with them.

I was homeschooled, attended a private Christian school, and went to public schools.  Home schooling was the most efficient.  The private school had higher average academic standards vs. public schooling.  The public school system had more variety in activities and classes.  I was able to do a "full day's study" in about 3-4 hours at home, which was nice.  Home schooling put me several years ahead of the public system in several subjects.  The private school was about a year to a year and a half ahead of public system.  Yet, the public high school offered a much wider variety of classes (probably due to the size of the student body).
2012-02-05 19:46:23
War Man
Australians are hermaphrodites.
+563|6705|Purplicious Wisconsin
I didn't ever go to a public school because my parents had bad experiences with public schools with my 2 oldest siblings, and they got feed the "PUBLIC SCHOOLS BRAINWASH CHILDREN!!!" crap which definitely insured I am not going to ever be in a public school, and they have no money for a private school. I have no fucking clue what the hell I'm supposed to do now.
The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
2012-02-05 19:49:54
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5577

War Man wrote:

I didn't ever go to a public school because my parents had bad experiences with public schools with my 2 oldest siblings, and they got feed the "PUBLIC SCHOOLS BRAINWASH CHILDREN!!!" crap which definitely insured I am not going to ever be in a public school, and they have no money for a private school. I have no fucking clue what the hell I'm supposed to do now.
If I recall correctly the state doesn't recognize your homeschooling? I'm curious as to what your parents think about the situation in you are in.
2012-02-05 20:05:46
War Man
Australians are hermaphrodites.
+563|6705|Purplicious Wisconsin

Macbeth wrote:

War Man wrote:

I didn't ever go to a public school because my parents had bad experiences with public schools with my 2 oldest siblings, and they got feed the "PUBLIC SCHOOLS BRAINWASH CHILDREN!!!" crap which definitely insured I am not going to ever be in a public school, and they have no money for a private school. I have no fucking clue what the hell I'm supposed to do now.
If I recall correctly the state doesn't recognize your homeschooling? I'm curious as to what your parents think about the situation in you are in.
Insistent that I'm having a better education than if I was in a public school, can't provide any good arguments against that. At least I am not willing to bother as they will still continue on with their thinking and I have no other pathway to take.

By the way, my state doesn't recognize my homeschooling? Where did you get that?
The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
2012-02-05 20:08:28
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5577

War Man wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

War Man wrote:

I didn't ever go to a public school because my parents had bad experiences with public schools with my 2 oldest siblings, and they got feed the "PUBLIC SCHOOLS BRAINWASH CHILDREN!!!" crap which definitely insured I am not going to ever be in a public school, and they have no money for a private school. I have no fucking clue what the hell I'm supposed to do now.
If I recall correctly the state doesn't recognize your homeschooling? I'm curious as to what your parents think about the situation in you are in.
Insistent that I'm having a better education than if I was in a public school, can't provide any good arguments against that. At least I am not willing to bother as they will still continue on with their thinking and I have no other pathway to take.

By the way, my state doesn't recognize my homeschooling? Where did you get that?
I could have sworn you didn't get a high school equivalency because of your home schooling.
2012-02-05 20:11:12
War Man
Australians are hermaphrodites.
+563|6705|Purplicious Wisconsin

Macbeth wrote:

War Man wrote:

Macbeth wrote:


If I recall correctly the state doesn't recognize your homeschooling? I'm curious as to what your parents think about the situation in you are in.
Insistent that I'm having a better education than if I was in a public school, can't provide any good arguments against that. At least I am not willing to bother as they will still continue on with their thinking and I have no other pathway to take.

By the way, my state doesn't recognize my homeschooling? Where did you get that?
I could have sworn you didn't get a high school equivalency because of your home schooling.
I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Where did you get that info?
The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
2012-02-05 20:12:00
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5577

I'm confused. I'll fuck off now.
2012-02-05 20:16:47
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6436|The Land of Scott Walker
The state does not have to "recognize" any home school under WI law.  Otherwise, what would be the point of home schooling if the government has to come in and put it's stamp on what you're doing?
2012-02-05 20:41:52
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|6701|Oklahoma City
Most states recognize it to a degree... Meaning, you don't get in trouble for truancy if you are homeschooling... And most homeschooling curriculum publishers are also approved by the state school board as sufficient. But you don't just graduate your homeschool and get a recognized degree... You usually still have to go take your G.E.D. or some other form of standardized testing to prove you actually did something while you were in school. You also have to take your ACTs or SATs depending on state before you are cleared to enter college, but that is no different than public schools.

 

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