I think Apple catches shit because of the smug way they and their customers portray themselves.
That's really all it comes down to. They market to... a certain segment of the population... with visions of cleanliness, creativity, green, etc. They're really no different than any other company, they just have a better PR and marketing department.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
I think Apple catches shit because of the smug way they and their customers portray themselves.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Smiling Apple customer captioned with "I'm all for worker's rights, as long as it doesn't cost me anything"Jay wrote:
Against Apple? Absolutely. Their customers are the most image conscious people on the planet. Get Maddow to start comparing Apple products to gas chambers or something and you'll find thousands of macbooks on ebay and craigslist within a week Liberal guilt is an amazing tool.
Some of the Apple faithful are more than a little hypocritical in that regard.
"limousine Lexus liberals", and vegans in Birkenstocks & leather jackets.
i guess since i hate apple products i must be an ultra conservative
Tu Stultus Es
nah, just poor
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
rich in knowledge
Tu Stultus Es
This is all true, but it also gives us an insight into what global capitalism is really about.HITNRUNXX wrote:
Maybe I am totally misunderstanding everything, but...
This original story is not about APPLE... It is about FOXCONN, and they are NOT APPLE... If I am not mistaken, they are the #1 maker of electroni components in the world, and make things for Apple, yes, but also for Microsoft, Sony, Amazon, Cisco, IBM, Dell, Intel, Asus, Acer, Samsung, Motorola, HP, and tons of other companies...
It is asinine to turn this into a "APPLE IS EVIL" witch-hunt... Everyone on this forum has something in their home made by Foxconn. I don't forsee anyone ditching all of their electronics in order to protest. Except maybe the Amish.
Foxconn has factories all over the planet... The Chinese factories are the main ones we keep hearing about... So is Apple evil, or is Foxconn evil, or is China evil, or is communism evil, or are Asian people evil, or are electronics evil, or are consumers evil, or is the planet evil?
So sick of hearing everyone blame Apple for the world's problems... And I'm not even a fan of apple, I use Android devices like my Samsung phone with Foxconn parts, and I use my Kindle with Foxconn parts, and my Dell laptop with Foxconn parts instead.
So instead of "Apple is the devil" what do you propose gets done to fix this? Pay more to Apple, so they can, what? Pay more to Foxconn, who makes more bank while continuing to treat their employees the same way? FORCE Apple to FORCE Foxconn to treat their employees better?
Be realistic... This is a Chinese government issue for allowing their citizens to take all our jobs, making them more money, and they sacrifice their people to do that.
I guess I could have an American Government attitude and say "Hey, let's go overthrow their government and put one in place that is more like ours." But that would never fly... China keeps giving us our cheap electronics at lower cost to us... Maybe we will go to war when their electronics cost more per barrel.
It also shows what humans are willing to do to each other for the sake of convenience.
Considering that the only place the problems are occurring is in a non-capitalist country, I would say it gives more insight into what a socialist market economy or communism is really about.Turquoise wrote:
This is all true, but it also gives us an insight into what global capitalism is really about.HITNRUNXX wrote:
Maybe I am totally misunderstanding everything, but...
This original story is not about APPLE... It is about FOXCONN, and they are NOT APPLE... If I am not mistaken, they are the #1 maker of electronic components in the world, and make things for Apple, yes, but also for Microsoft, Sony, Amazon, Cisco, IBM, Dell, Intel, Asus, Acer, Samsung, Motorola, HP, and tons of other companies...
It is asinine to turn this into a "APPLE IS EVIL" witch-hunt... Everyone on this forum has something in their home made by Foxconn. I don't forsee anyone ditching all of their electronics in order to protest. Except maybe the Amish.
Foxconn has factories all over the planet... The Chinese factories are the main ones we keep hearing about... So is Apple evil, or is Foxconn evil, or is China evil, or is communism evil, or are Asian people evil, or are electronics evil, or are consumers evil, or is the planet evil?
So sick of hearing everyone blame Apple for the world's problems... And I'm not even a fan of apple, I use Android devices like my Samsung phone with Foxconn parts, and I use my Kindle with Foxconn parts, and my Dell laptop with Foxconn parts instead.
So instead of "Apple is the devil" what do you propose gets done to fix this? Pay more to Apple, so they can, what? Pay more to Foxconn, who makes more bank while continuing to treat their employees the same way? FORCE Apple to FORCE Foxconn to treat their employees better?
Be realistic... This is a Chinese government issue for allowing their citizens to take all our jobs, making them more money, and they sacrifice their people to do that.
I guess I could have an American Government attitude and say "Hey, let's go overthrow their government and put one in place that is more like ours." But that would never fly... China keeps giving us our cheap electronics at lower cost to us... Maybe we will go to war when their electronics cost more per barrel.
It also shows what humans are willing to do to each other for the sake of convenience.
In places where you get assigned your job, and have to stay there and work, regardless of the conditions or how you are treated, or go to jail, I am sure the companies don't feel as much need to take care of their employees. You don't see mass suicides in capitalist governments... You see walk outs, strikes, boycotts, and occupying wall street wanting even more special treatment. Go try occupy shanghai and let me know how that works out for you. Something tells me that protest wouldn't last as long as the Wall Street version.
Well, there are multiple forms of capitalism. No country has a pure one.HITNRUNXX wrote:
Considering that the only place the problems are occurring is in a non-capitalist country, I would say it gives more insight into what a socialist market economy or communism is really about.Turquoise wrote:
This is all true, but it also gives us an insight into what global capitalism is really about.HITNRUNXX wrote:
Maybe I am totally misunderstanding everything, but...
This original story is not about APPLE... It is about FOXCONN, and they are NOT APPLE... If I am not mistaken, they are the #1 maker of electronic components in the world, and make things for Apple, yes, but also for Microsoft, Sony, Amazon, Cisco, IBM, Dell, Intel, Asus, Acer, Samsung, Motorola, HP, and tons of other companies...
It is asinine to turn this into a "APPLE IS EVIL" witch-hunt... Everyone on this forum has something in their home made by Foxconn. I don't forsee anyone ditching all of their electronics in order to protest. Except maybe the Amish.
Foxconn has factories all over the planet... The Chinese factories are the main ones we keep hearing about... So is Apple evil, or is Foxconn evil, or is China evil, or is communism evil, or are Asian people evil, or are electronics evil, or are consumers evil, or is the planet evil?
So sick of hearing everyone blame Apple for the world's problems... And I'm not even a fan of apple, I use Android devices like my Samsung phone with Foxconn parts, and I use my Kindle with Foxconn parts, and my Dell laptop with Foxconn parts instead.
So instead of "Apple is the devil" what do you propose gets done to fix this? Pay more to Apple, so they can, what? Pay more to Foxconn, who makes more bank while continuing to treat their employees the same way? FORCE Apple to FORCE Foxconn to treat their employees better?
Be realistic... This is a Chinese government issue for allowing their citizens to take all our jobs, making them more money, and they sacrifice their people to do that.
I guess I could have an American Government attitude and say "Hey, let's go overthrow their government and put one in place that is more like ours." But that would never fly... China keeps giving us our cheap electronics at lower cost to us... Maybe we will go to war when their electronics cost more per barrel.
It also shows what humans are willing to do to each other for the sake of convenience.
In places where you get assigned your job, and have to stay there and work, regardless of the conditions or how you are treated, or go to jail, I am sure the companies don't feel as much need to take care of their employees. You don't see mass suicides in capitalist governments... You see walk outs, strikes, boycotts, and occupying wall street wanting even more special treatment. Go try occupy shanghai and let me know how that works out for you. Something tells me that protest wouldn't last as long as the Wall Street version.
China has a state capitalism. It's just a more blatant version of the crony capitalism we have.
It doesn't detract from the fact that we fund state capitalism through our trade. Governments aren't forcing us to buy Chinese goods, and the money made off of trade with China is why our comparatively more capitalistic market profits from oppression.
All good points.
hitnrun, youre completely wrong about what goes on in china. people do get to choose where they work, they moved onto a more free market since deng xioping. they only have internal migration restriction from rural to urban.
"you dont see mass suicides in capitalist governments" - what about japan?
"you dont see mass suicides in capitalist governments" - what about japan?
Japan had mass suicides to protest working conditions? I missed it. Was Apple involved?
And seriously, these people have a choice in where they work, but instead of quitting, they kill themselves because they don't like the conditions?
Well there's always the sex trade as an alternative.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
No, they didn't get paid. There's a difference.HITNRUNXX wrote:
And seriously, these people have a choice in where they work, but instead of quitting, they kill themselves because they don't like the conditions?
Talk about a cop-out for an excuse. "They're getting paid more, so naturally they're better off"Kmar wrote:
Well there's always the sex trade as an alternative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjsshqyA … r_embedded
I call bullshit
Virtually every developing country goes through this sort of period. Eventually conditions and wages will improve.
Call it what you will. I prefer to call it reality. Always consider the alternative.
Call it what you will. I prefer to call it reality. Always consider the alternative.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Overseas manufacturer's can't pay much higher than the local wage. Local business' can't compete with the labour environment and usually the government comes in and seizes your assets (happens a lot in south east asia). China's getting much much much better due to the amount of work provided by these "evil" companies.Spearhead wrote:
Talk about a cop-out for an excuse. "They're getting paid more, so naturally they're better off"Kmar wrote:
Well there's always the sex trade as an alternative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjsshqyA … r_embedded
I call bullshit
HitnRun: lol go to fucking china and see how depressing that place is if you're working there.
lol, no that's ok, it is too depressing for me to actually study up on. Most DST threads I really read up on before I post anything... But come on... It is China.
yeah they're just dirty yellow commies half a world away so its all good rightHITNRUNXX wrote:
lol, no that's ok, it is too depressing for me to actually study up on. Most DST threads I really read up on before I post anything... But come on... It is China.
Touche, but it kind of makes you wonder why we bother with all the "human rights" rhetoric with foreign policy.Kmar wrote:
Well there's always the sex trade as an alternative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjsshqyA … r_embedded
I mean, if we're ok with the sex trade and worker conditions at Foxconn, then why did we care if Saddam had gassed a bunch of Kurds?
Genocide is a step further than the others, but it's kind of the same idea.
We essentially only care about exploitation/abuse when it provides us a convenient opportunity for intervention or for self-righteousness.
Last edited by Turquoise (2012-01-29 19:54:17)
Welcome to the bottom line of human nature.
However, lets not pretend there is no discernible difference between employees volunteering to work, and mass murder. It's kinda the same idea only in that it illustrates widely varying degrees of hypocrisy. What we decide is tolerable in our minds does matter. I'd like to see more rights for women in the ME. But I'm certainly not about to say send in the Marines to do a job that must be done by those people actually affected by (un)equal rights. Change, like workers rights, has to be done from the inside for it to be successful and sustainable.
However, lets not pretend there is no discernible difference between employees volunteering to work, and mass murder. It's kinda the same idea only in that it illustrates widely varying degrees of hypocrisy. What we decide is tolerable in our minds does matter. I'd like to see more rights for women in the ME. But I'm certainly not about to say send in the Marines to do a job that must be done by those people actually affected by (un)equal rights. Change, like workers rights, has to be done from the inside for it to be successful and sustainable.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Exactly. That is word for word what I said.Cybargs wrote:
yeah they're just dirty yellow commies half a world away so its all good rightHITNRUNXX wrote:
lol, no that's ok, it is too depressing for me to actually study up on. Most DST threads I really read up on before I post anything... But come on... It is China.
Or, I have a finite amount of time on what areas to study, and China doesn't affect me that much. Once they have a natural disaster and all our electronics stop getting made (Thailand Floods and Harddrives, anyone?) or we decide to go to war with them over the cost of electronics per barrel, then it will be a little more worth putting some time into it. If it was at the top of my list of places I wanted to visit, I would study it a lot... But otherwise, the place doesn't interest me that much. They have some amazing photo-ops and a long and interesting history, but most of the studying I have done on them is so outdated it is ridiculous.
To make a comparison: I would love to tour Israel... But there is no way I would set foot in that IED about to go off... I get junk mail every week selling tours... But no thank you. Avoiding powder kegs is on my list of good things.
I would argue the same is true for removing dictators.Kmar wrote:
Welcome to the bottom line of human nature.
However, lets not pretend there is no discernible difference between employees volunteering to work, and mass murder. It's kinda the same idea only in that it illustrates widely varying degrees of hypocrisy. What we decide is tolerable in our minds does matter. I'd like to see more rights for women in the ME. But I'm certainly not about to say send in the Marines to do a job that must be done by those people actually affected by (un)equal rights. Change, like workers rights, has to be done from the inside for it to be successful and sustainable.
Last edited by Turquoise (2012-01-29 20:12:29)
Pretty much. Although Nazi Germany does seem to disagree.
Xbone Stormsurgezz